Water and Gas Tanks prevent contents from cooling?

[Technoincubus]

I thought they will cool down their contents but it seems they are not. Is it WAD or a bug?

[SamLogan]

1 hour ago, Technoincubus said:

I thought they will cool down their contents but it seems they are not. Is it WAD or a bug?

They are totally insulated.

[tzionut]

Quote

They are totally insulated.

Not quite. They are insulated from the outside.. not from inside.. Try to put a hot liquid in it (like magma)... If the reservoir isn't in void, it will rapidly heat the surroundings and receive damage. 

[Lali-Lop]

6 hours ago, tzionut said:

Not quite. They are insulated from the outside.. not from inside.. Try to put a hot liquid in it (like magma)... If the reservoir isn't in void, it will rapidly heat the surroundings and receive damage. 

Insulation doesn't work one way... That doesn't make any sense.  If it's transferring heat, then it's not totally insulated.  The contents either conduct heat to the building and then to the environment (and vice versa), or they don't.  Most buildings do.  For example, farm tiles will heat up (and then heat the room) if there's hot dirt in it.  Depends on what material the building is made of as to the rate of heat transfer, obviously.  I'm not sure if the tanks are a special case, though.  I thought they recently changed it so the contents don't interact with the environment at all.

[itsYiyas]

They aren't insulated at all, depending on the material they are made out of.

If you have a full tank of 150kg gas or 5000kg of liquid - 30kg of gas to try and cool it down isn't much at all. Similarly, 15kg of liquid to cool down 5000kg? That's going to take forever - there's 333 times the heat capacity in the reservoir than outside of it.

[Djoums]

They work the same as regular compactors, you'll need vacuum + insulated tiles to prevent the heat flow. The reservoir itself can be heated by the atmosphere it's in, but not by its content directly.

Spoiler

1. Vacuum + abyssalite, no heat transfer.

2. Gas + non-abyssalite, heat transfer to the surroundings + bottom tiles.

3. Vacuum + non-abyssalite, heat transfer to the bottom tiles only.

4. Gas + abyssalite, heat transfer to the gas only.

 

[Lali-Lop]

4 hours ago, Djoums said:

They work the same as regular compactors, you'll need vacuum + insulated tiles to prevent the heat flow. The reservoir itself can be heated by the atmosphere it's in, but not by its content directly.

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Vacuum + abyssalite, no heat transfer.

2. Gas + non-abyssalite, heat transfer to the surroundings + bottom tiles.

3. Vacuum + non-abyssalite, heat transfer to the bottom tiles only.

4. Gas + abyssalite, heat transfer to the gas only.

 

Nice examples.

I always assumed the storage exchanged heat with the container, not the environment.  Seems backwards.  I've never used containers in a vacuum, so I didn't realize this behavior.  So, does the gas/liquid/solid container's material not affect heat transfer of the materials stored then?

[Coolthulhu]

It doesn't insulate contents at all.

It's just that all buildings (other than pipes) do not directly interact with their contents, and that interaction speed grows much slower than mass.

So if you have a single "item" made of 5000kg of magma, it doesn't interact much (if at all) faster than a 50kg puddle, and doesn't interact with the container at all, only with the surrounding gas/liquid/solid (and only on one tile, which depends on building).

[Djoums]

1 hour ago, Lali-Lop said:

So, does the gas/liquid/solid container's material not affect heat transfer of the materials stored then?

It doesn't, for heat transfer calculations the game engine considers that the stored material is virtually laying on the ground. This is the reason why the atmosphere and the bottom tiles are important.

[Lali-Lop]

1 hour ago, Djoums said:

It doesn't, for heat transfer calculations the game engine considers that the stored material is virtually laying on the ground. This is the reason why the atmosphere and the bottom tiles are important.

Huh, interesting.  Makes more sense now to me with how they've been acting.  Guess I need to do a little more consideration about where some of my storage containers are now.  Thanks for clarifying that.

[Mariilyn]

10 hours ago, Djoums said:

They work the same as regular compactors, you'll need vacuum + insulated tiles to prevent the heat flow. The reservoir itself can be heated by the atmosphere it's in, but not by its content directly.

Was this test made recently or during the preview? I'm unable to reproduce this behavior. As of game update 283915 the content of the reservoirs should not interact with it's surroundings. 

 

 

 

[PhailRaptor]

3 hours ago, Mariilyn said:

Was this test made recently or during the preview? I'm unable to reproduce this behavior. As of game update 283915 the content of the reservoirs should not interact with it's surroundings. 

 

 

 

It's quite unclear what that entry in the patch notes actually means.  With that update, P-H2O would no longer off-gas from inside the Reservoir, but the buff "surrounded by Chlorine, % dying off" for Germs was not affected for the fluids inside the Reservoir.

[Djoums]

4 hours ago, Mariilyn said:

Was this test made recently or during the preview? I'm unable to reproduce this behavior. As of game update 283915 the content of the reservoirs should not interact with it's surroundings.

Tested with 285480 but on an old save. I tried a fresh map to make sure and the behavior actually seems to be different.

There's still a heat flow but it's much slower. Not sure what's going on now, I don't get why this would be tied to the map version and not the game version.

 

Spoiler

The polluted water temperature started at ~118°C and is slowly decreasing, but it took several cycles to reach 115.9°C.

 

Edit : I redid the whole test with latest version/map, results are consistent with my first one. Maybe the drywalls were interfering somehow, not sure. Anyway the reservoirs are not insulated.

Spoiler

1. Vacuum + abyssalite, no heat transfer.

2. Gas + metal, heat transfer to the gas + bottom tiles.

3. Vacuum + metal, heat transfer to the bottom tiles only.

4. Gas + abyssalite, heat transfer to the gas only.

 

[Mariilyn]

10 hours ago, Djoums said:

Tested with 285480 but on an old save. I tried a fresh map to make sure and the behavior actually seems to be different.

There's still a heat flow but it's much slower. Not sure what's going on now, I don't get why this would be tied to the map version and not the game version.

There is an immediate difference if the fill command is used to put oxygen or vacuum in the metal tile boxes after the reservoir placement. 

- The left reservoir have a 1531kg oxygen atmosphere created before the test. It was made before the 2 others. At some point I replaced the reservoir and the oxygens temperature began to rise very slowly afterward. But I would need to make a more consistent test to be sure of what happened.

- The reservoir in the middle have a 1050 kg oxygen atmosphere. Temperature immediately began to rise when I filled the metal tile box.

- The right reservoir is in a recently made vacuum (couple of dozen seconds). Again, the temperature immediately began to change once the vacuum was made.

Edit : this is an old save and I was unable to make this happen in a new one, so who knows? I was led to believe reservoirs were insulated because I have one built on mesh tiles in a vacuum and the tile's temperature never ever changed.

[The Flying Fox]

On 9/24/2018 at 6:33 PM, Djoums said:

It doesn't, for heat transfer calculations the game engine considers that the stored material is virtually laying on the ground. This is the reason why the atmosphere and the bottom tiles are important.

One thing that I'd like to point out which I think is meaningful to the experiments shown here.  The transfer of heat to/from the contents of storage isn't because 'they're laying on the ground', it's actually because they're in vacuum tiles.

 

Here I placed the metal tiles at their default temp, then built the reservoir and painted hot at 1000K, I then added the rarefied atmosphere of chlorine.  The building easily heated the chlorine but does not heat the metal tiles at any significant amount.  I then started pumping hot petroleum into the reservoir.  As you can see, the metal tiles are basically not affected by either the hot storage or the hot building.  However...

 

As soon as you remove the atmosphere, the metal heats quickly.  So basically, debris and the contents of storage don't always transfer heat to the tiles below them.  They have to do it through some medium and vacuum tiles apparently have a special property to allow thermal transfer of stuff in them, to the tile below, but not transfer heat through them.

[psusi]

19 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

As soon as you remove the atmosphere, the metal heats quickly.  So basically, debris and the contents of storage don't always transfer heat to the tiles below them.  They have to do it through some medium and vacuum tiles apparently have a special property to allow thermal transfer of stuff in them, to the tile below, but not transfer heat through them.

Now that is really weird.

[The Flying Fox]

1 hour ago, psusi said:

Now that is really weird.

Yes, but so would debris sitting on the floor NOT thermally exchanging heat in some way, even in a vacuum.  The stuff is clearly sitting on 'touching' the tile they're above.  So, this is just their way to allow this type of thermal exchange.  I'd assume their thermal model doesn't care where these items actually are in the above tile, just that they're in the tile at all.  So, this is probably why the contents of storages and things on rails exchange heat with the tile below them.

 

Another weird thing.  For some reason, this no longer happens with the metal refinery.  It does appear that it is thermally sealed now.  Yet the glass forge is not.  It doesn't appear that the tile where the metal refinery's storage has moved, so I'm not sure what's going on.  Perhaps they have intended to seal some storages, but not all?

[psusi]

2 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

Yes, but so would debris sitting on the floor NOT thermally exchanging heat in some way, even in a vacuum.  The stuff is clearly sitting on 'touching' the tile they're above.  So, this is just their way to allow this type of thermal exchange.  I'd assume their thermal model doesn't care where these items actually are in the above tile, just that they're in the tile at all.  So, this is probably why the contents of storages and things on rails exchange heat with the tile below them.

The weird thing is that they only seem to exchange heat with the floor when in a vacuum.

 

[The Flying Fox]

17 minutes ago, psusi said:

The weird thing is that they only seem to exchange heat with the floor when in a vacuum.

 

Well, that's simply because I tested with chlorine at well under >1g per tile.  99mgs of chlorine basically doesn't have the mass to thermally move heat through it.  I'd imagine, if I left the simulation running for a long long time, eventually the metal tiles would heat up through the chlorine.

 

So, the question really becomes, at what mass of X gas does the thermal transfer become equal to debris sitting in a vacuum tile.

[Djoums]

8 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

As soon as you remove the atmosphere, the metal heats quickly.  So basically, debris and the contents of storage don't always transfer heat to the tiles below them.  They have to do it through some medium and vacuum tiles apparently have a special property to allow thermal transfer of stuff in them, to the tile below, but not transfer heat through them.

Nice find, it explains the inconsistencies in my tests.

So the game uses the thermal conductivity of the atmosphere to exchange heat between the content of the reservoir and the surrounding tiles. But somehow that thermal conductivity becomes infinite for vacuum (instead of the expected 0) and the bottom tiles get heated up very quickly in that scenario, being the only tiles eligible for heat transfer. And I assume it's the same for regular compactors then.

Not as intuitive as "stuff laying on the ground"

[psusi]

19 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

Well, that's simply because I tested with chlorine at well under >1g per tile.  99mgs of chlorine basically doesn't have the mass to thermally move heat through it.  I'd imagine, if I left the simulation running for a long long time, eventually the metal tiles would heat up through the chlorine.

Oh, I thought you were saying there was something special about a vacuum that makes heat transfer to the floor, rather than heat always transfers to the floor, vacuum or no.

 

12 hours ago, Djoums said:

So the game uses the thermal conductivity of the atmosphere to exchange heat between the content of the reservoir and the surrounding tiles. But somehow that thermal conductivity becomes infinite for vacuum (instead of the expected 0) and the bottom tiles get heated up very quickly in that scenario, being the only tiles eligible for heat transfer. And I assume it's the same for regular compactors then.

Are you sure that a few mg of chlorine slows the heat transfer to the floor?

[SharraShimada]

Made from wolframite, with diamond tempshifts and pipe-cooling underlay an in hydrogen athmo, you may cool even stored gases/liquids. 

The problem here is only, its 5 tons of liquid in one place. Its not the avery 10kg per pipe-section, its 5 tons. You need a lot of cooling to bring that mass down. And if the liquid just flows through the storage, you wont have nearly enough time to cool it a bit. 

[PhailRaptor]

In another thread on a related subject, Saturnus mentioned that in the code, the Reservoirs are tagged as "insulated", the same way that Insulated Tiles are.  So whenever the game is processing thermal change involving a Reservoir, it will use the insulated version of the equation.  This would slow down thermal transfer substantially.  Factor of 1000, isn't it?

[psusi]

1 hour ago, PhailRaptor said:

In another thread on a related subject, Saturnus mentioned that in the code, the Reservoirs are tagged as "insulated", the same way that Insulated Tiles are.  So whenever the game is processing thermal change involving a Reservoir, it will use the insulated version of the equation.  This would slow down thermal transfer substantially.  Factor of 1000, isn't it?

Insulated means it only uses the heat transfer of the building rather than a mix of the building and the other thing it is exchanging heat with, so unless the building has a rather low heat transfer rating, it isn't going to slow it down.

[Djoums]

11 hours ago, psusi said:

Are you sure that a few mg of chlorine slows the heat transfer to the floor?

Yes I did the test to confirm on my end and it is definitely the case. But that's what @The Flying Fox showed in a previous post.

Spoiler

 

1. 5mg of chlorine atmosphere

2. Vacuum

If we use more than 5mg of chlorine (say 1Kg), then the metal tiles start to heat up but very slowly.