Exploits ruin the game, they need to go

[Yunru]

1 hour ago, turbonl64 said:

The topic evolved into a content wise one. Just check the last 3 or 4 pages and you'll see.

It really didn't. It just got prettier to look at.

It's still, at it's core, people going "yes it is" "no it isn't"

[chemie]

1 hour ago, turbonl64 said:

The issue being here you loose the resource, so the water. That's a genuine big cost.

Why?  I have geysers sitting there doing nothing with no intent on ever using (looking at you chlorine geyser).  Meanwhile sieve costs resources to (dup time and sand)

5 minutes ago, Yunru said:

It really didn't. It just got prettier to look at.

It's still, at it's core, people going "yes it is" "no it isn't"

Except people who say it is could just not utilize it.  I never used drip cooling bug because I did not like it as an exploit.

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, Sevio said:

Heating stuff with electricity is easy, cooling it requires a heat sink.

All a heat sink does is move the heat energy somewhere else.  Because the simulation is a closed system, you will always die from excessive heat energy unless there is a way to eliminate that heat from the system.  Since the game does not currently handle radiant heat transfer, we can only dump heat into space by losing mass.  This is problematic because we can only eject liquids or gasses -- and all the liquids and gasses that are good at carrying heat are also life-support elements or they are a very limited resource.

If we could build machines that would transfer heat in temperature ranges like 500c without melting down, we could take advantage of buildings like the steam generator that eliminate heat through work.  An end-game experienced player can use a combination of radiant pipes and conveyor belts to augment such a system, but the primary heat source will always be something like a pool of lava or a volcano, rather than simply using the waste heat from your base.

There are cold sources in the game that can be used for a finite amount of time, such as the cold biomes.  At some point, however, the heat will become a problem you can't ignore any more.  This point will be quickly reached by a new player while an experienced player may not hit it until cycle 700 or 1000.  The problem, as I see it, is that everything in the game (with the exception of the AETN and wheezeworts) produces heat.  We can build machines designed to produce heat (tepidizer) but all the buildings we make that can cool (with the exception of the hydrofan) only move the heat elsewhere.  For those arguing that we can use a super-cooled petroleum or nat gas generator to do cooling --  you're deleting heat just like you would with a water sieve.  Unless you're cooling down your fuel before it arrives at the generator.

I would like to propose a challenge: Start a thread showcasing designs where heat is dealt with in a sustainable manner -- without using fixed-output or "output equals machine temperature" methods.  Lets see what we can come up with and what problems we encounter.  Venting into space is acceptable, but it must be sustainable.  If you can avoid using the AETNs or wheezworts, then you get bonus points.

Here's hoping everyone gets at least one slush geyser...

[Oozinator]

I would love, when ppl would no longer call exploits exploits.
It would be much more sensitive, to call them IDEFIX!

Intended Developer Everything FIX = IDEFIX

 

2 hours ago, clickrush said:

I'am done with this discussion.

Are you sure, because you made some valid arguments, could be, that you win the discussion (when you support IDEFIX)!
 

[jmf35]

3 hours ago, clickrush said:

Exactly. And you are accidentally using a fixed heat output system (your hatches) to destroy almost 8MW of heat continuosly. It 'works' because it is a fixed heat output system. And by the way, a way more powerful one than your average sieve/aquatuner system.

I'am done with this discussion. Everyone just throws around all kinds of anectodes and nobody actually tries to understand why fixed heat is in the game in the first place. If Klei doesn't give us other (more interesting and powerful) cooling solutions and/or increase the geyser/vent outputs drastically, fixed heat needs to stay.

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting all methods of heat deletion be removed. (Admittedly there are way more than I ever realized from reading this thread). A lot of the discussion has been about buildings whose primary function is *not* cooling being used for that purpose. Which negates needing to use *actual* cooling buildings as much. Then the last few pages shifted to late game balance and systems, which are separate but correlated issues. This is still in alpha so I think the devs should at least let us test out buildings that don't delete heat to see how it affects the meta. I don't really care about accidental heat deletion if that's what it takes to make the game viable.

[chemie]

Many buildings destroy most of the input so refinery or pet gen or nat gas gen are always going to delete heat.  H2 gen is best example since it 100% destroys all mass and heat.

[Dirmagnos]

8 hours ago, JonnyMonroe said:

Exhausting a hot material into space makes perfect sense for cooling. You think your car doesn't lose heat through it's exhaust pipe? You ever see a cooling tower on a power plant? That is dumping heat into a coolant then exhausting it. Nobody here is talking about conduction. We're talking about convection.

So i misunderstood, idea was to simply eject hot materials into space ? Not to actually cool them down there and use later ?

5 hours ago, lurkinglurker said:

We even can hold one of the very foundations of all of gaming itself, the fact a game gets harder and harder as it progresses, ON AN EXPLOIT. (The game is called Space Invaders... and back when the arcade machine came out, the processor cannot handle all the invaders on screen... thus resulting in the lucky accident of said game moving faster aka becoming more difficult as more invaders get shot up towards the end)

All the examples that you provided have tradeoffs and while some of them did start as exploits, they were later incorporated and balanced into core game. And for every exploit that was incorporated into game, there has been probably millions by now(across all games), that were fixed. Exceptions make poor examples of a rule.

What you wrote about Space Invaders moving faster as processor coudnt handle all the invaders on screen is utter absurdity coming from complete ignorance of how CPUs work(it has nothing to do with lack). Overloaded processor would actually slow down game progression till it either crashed of froze. As it would have to process more and more input from faster moving/coming aliens, while lacking computing power, it would result in either skipping of inputs or making longer "wait lines".

[Giltirn]

Why have we wasted 8 pages of discussion going back and forth on the definition of "exploit"? Who cares? The fundamental question is whether we would like the devs to improve the simulation to have a more realistic and intuitive handling of heat in machines. I would personally like to see the in-game systems have a reasonable approximation of energy conservation.

[XEVEN]

To be fair ladies and gentlemen, if Klei limits the ONI market to hardcore nerds like us, they won't make a dime. They provided us with a really cool simulation where we get to move heat around and design complex systems and automation. Whether we handle heat with building outputs, space vents, door crushers, warts, or nullifiers, it doesn't really matter. They have provided many ways to combat the heat. Pick your poison, it's ALL magic. You should NOT however, require a god damned PhD in thermodynamics to have fun with a video game.

IRL what do we do with our heat? Your car... Your air conditioner... The cooling tower at your university... Ultimately we DUMP IT into the atmosphere. Be glad we don't have to do that in ONI, otherwise every game would end in slow heat death.

[chemie]

1 hour ago, Giltirn said:

Why have we wasted 8 pages of discussion going back and forth on the definition of "exploit"? Who cares? The fundamental question is whether we would like the devs to improve the simulation to have a more realistic and intuitive handling of heat in machines. I would personally like to see the in-game systems have a reasonable approximation of energy conservation.

How would you handle energy conservation in the H2 generator (without it melting)?

[Andz]

7 hours ago, clickrush said:

Exactly. And you are accidentally using a fixed heat output system (your hatches) to destroy almost 8MW of heat continuosly. It 'works' because it is a fixed heat output system. And by the way, a way more powerful one than your average sieve/aquatuner system.

I'am done with this discussion. Everyone just throws around all kinds of anectodes and nobody actually tries to understand why fixed heat is in the game in the first place. If Klei doesn't give us other (more interesting and powerful) cooling solutions and/or increase the geyser/vent outputs drastically, fixed heat needs to stay.

This is very wrong, if you have a slush geyser in your map. I am cycle 600 and never played with fixed output temp since the last 2 updates. It is much fun. I have troubles to keep my base warm enough. I don't use space. It is very simple to blanace out a non-fixed output temp, if at all it would even need a nerf: replace a cold steam at the beginning of a map by a slushy (with maybe 75% output compared to its status now ingame). That's really just a few bits in the game files and it would make the game more logical and easier to understand for new players.

Build oxygen production next to an AETN, use a slush for a cooling cycle, if it reaches 30°C purify it. Use a regular polluted water geyser (30°C) as your main supply. Use cold steam (95°C) as oil well source (the water actually gets pumped into the stones to squeeze out the oil, so it makes sense the heat vanishes somehow.) or for oxygen production. The output gets cooled anyway, so there is only a marginal difference between 80 and 95 degrees C.

[Yunru]

1 hour ago, Giltirn said:

realistic

This bit? This bit doesn't matter one iota, and focusing on it at the expense of anything else is a mistake.

1 hour ago, Giltirn said:

intuitive

This bit, however, is where the focus should be, at least for base components.

[Giltirn]

Just now, Yunru said:

This bit? This bit doesn't matter one iota, and focusing on it at the expense of anything else is a mistake.

This bit, however, is where the focus should be, at least for base components.

I guess some thermodynamics is counter-intuitive but anyone with even a modicum of basic science teaching (or an AC unit) will know that if you put hot stuff and energy into a system you don't get cold stuff out unless hotter stuff is also coming out.

[Yunru]

Just now, Giltirn said:

I guess some thermodynamics is counter-intuitive but anyone with even a modicum of basic science teaching (or an AC unit) will know that if you put hot stuff and energy into a system you don't get cold stuff out unless hotter stuff is also coming out.

Right, it'd be intuitive for it to work that way.

That it's also realistic for it to work that way is, at best, a side note.

[lurkinglurker]

2 hours ago, Andz said:

Build oxygen production next to an AETN ... (next part paraphrased) hot water for oxygen production  

Using the super-magical AETN and 90C water for oxygen production while saying  “I don’t use buildings to delete heat” kinda weakens your point. A lot. 

 

Just my opinion. 

 

 

[Giltirn]

2 hours ago, chemie said:

How would you handle energy conservation in the H2 generator (without it melting)?

Maybe you have to use cool water?

Edit: Ah I'm sorry, for some reason I thought you meant the electrolyzer. Surely you just have to keep the device cool like anything else?

[PhailRaptor]

2 hours ago, chemie said:

How would you handle energy conservation in the H2 generator (without it melting)?

While I do see the point you are making...  wouldn't it be the same situation as cooling a Polymer Press, but at a higher magnitude requiring a significantly higher thermal throughput?

[rodr]

On 6/19/2018 at 7:24 AM, turbonl64 said:

exploit

 

On 6/19/2018 at 6:46 AM, TehPlayer14 said:

exploits

Words are important.  An exploit is something that takes advantage of a flaw.  By pumping polluted water into a sieve you are using the device as intended.  Its not an exploit, its intended behavior.  Whether that intended behavior is acceptable or not is a matter of debate, but whether or not its an exploit is not up for debate, its simply not.

On 6/19/2018 at 8:21 AM, turbonl64 said:

People want a reasonable (reasonable, I'm not saying realistic) game.

I'm a people, was I consulted in this poll?

On 6/19/2018 at 8:13 AM, turbonl64 said:

It's not an intended design, it's an exploit.

The developers set the output temp to what it is -- that's intent.  I'm sorry you don't like the output temp or way the building functions, but a feedback/suggestion post may be more appropriate.  Drip cooling was an exploit, this is intended behavior you disagree with, and labeling it something extreme doesn't raise attention to the subject.  Will it change, probably so, is it an unintended consequence of "clever" player interaction with an in-game mechanic?  Nope.  Again (my 2cents), suggestion/feedback may be a better spot to make this post next time.

On 6/19/2018 at 8:19 AM, jmf35 said:

I don't expect machines to use perfect real-world materials science, but being able to reduce 100° water to 40° for 120w is absurd.

Good way to describe displeasure with the static value.  Its worded much less extreme and makes it easy to empathize.

[lurkinglurker]

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

What you wrote about Space Invaders moving faster as processor coudnt handle all the invaders on screen is utter absurdity coming from complete ignorance of how CPUs work(it has nothing to do with lack). Overloaded processor would actually slow down game progression till it either crashed of froze. As it would have to process more and more input from faster moving/coming aliens, while lacking computing power, it would result in either skipping of inputs or making longer "wait lines".

You have no idea how games used to be machine-coded, don’t you?

Yes, if this happened in a modern setup, with the graphics card and processor all cooperating under the aegis of an OS inside multiple threads while being impacted by the needs of the actual game itself, skipping and waits will occur.

But back then processors are single thread for everything, memory space are so small programmers have to “glitch” their sound effects, and you can’t even draw sprites without eating up large chunks of available memory, and said “graphics” will also take away processing power and time in actual game logic. 

That last point is important, and the reason for Space Invaders “improvement” in game speed when there are less sprites to draw on screen...

 

[Mariilyn]

Back to the subject at hand...

The reason why the water sieve is such an egregious case is because it might be harmful to *new and regular players*.  A quick need to sieve cold polluted water during early-mid game (from ice biome or cool slush geysers) will heat the water up by a whopping 50°C to 70°C which is ridiculous.

If used as a cooling device, it can delete up to 60°C at the cost of 120W. Compare this to the aquatuner, which has a cooling factor of 14°C for 1200W (and on top of that output the heat in its environment). This comparison alone makes it obvious that the sieve will eventually be changed somewhere along the way. It is certainly very unbalanced.

And it would not necessarily need to be replaced by another cooling method. If the sieve's fixed output was to be changed, cold clean water would probably be easier to produce in certain situations.

It is also counter-intuitive on a conceptual level, because the main purpose of a water sieve is to purify water and not act as a cooling device.

[lurkinglurker]

... why do people ALWAYS use below-freezing water as an example when talking about the negatives of water sieves?

Why can’t they take from geysers instead?

...

ohwait, there’s the cool slush geyser to counter-balance ‘cool’ steam geysers. Ignore what I’ve said, move on citizen, move on. 

[Dirmagnos]

14 minutes ago, lurkinglurker said:

You have no idea how games used to be machine-coded, don’t you?

Yes, if this happened in a modern setup, with the graphics card and processor all cooperating under the aegis of an OS inside multiple threads while being impacted by the needs of the actual game itself, skipping and waits will occur.

But back then processors are single thread for everything, memory space are so small programmers have to “glitch” their sound effects, and you can’t even draw sprites without eating up large chunks of available memory, and said “graphics” will also take away processing power and time in actual game logic. 

That last point is important, and the reason for Space Invaders “improvement” in game speed when there are less sprites to draw on screen...

What you are writing is nonsense. Modern day coding simply uses (de)compilers to translate machine code into programming language and back.

Considering that this feature was discovered during testing, before it was even shipped, it cant be classified as a exploit. It was found, and upon consideration it was decided to leave it in(just like Lara boobs in TR games) as is. Most games go thru multiple iterations during their testing as new ideas and features are being added or old ones removed, often without prior planning. Not to mention most obvious definition, as speed up in that game gave player not advantages, feature that is essential for something to be an exploit.

[kuroko0820]

4 hours ago, XEVEN said:

Klei limits the ONI market to hardcore nerds like us,

I Disagree about this ROFL, just some casual player who like simulation type gamer, control every stupid duplicant XD

For comment about this thread, i feeling weird, why you guys want to argue about a single player game which you cannot interface what they are building, exploit, etc. If you complaint but you still using anyway, that make no sense. If you think the water sieve is broken, then show us how you purify the water without water sieve, method of heat deletion etc. showing some innovative and cool stuff you build. 

 Just give klei some time to do adjustment for those thing, they need time to be fixed.  

[CobraA1]

Interesting topic. I remember in the early Minecraft days, people would talk about the exploits for ages. I personally don't think there is a "right" way to handle exploits in a single player game, that's just up to the vision of the design team and how much it breaks the game.

By the way, I see some people are talking about Space Invaders and how fast it runs on modern machines. In case anybody was wondering, some very old games run unplayably fast on modern machines. The reason why they do so is because the developers assumed all machines ran at a certain clock speed and designed the pacing of their games for that clock speed. That meant that any variance of clock speed affected the pacing of the game.

That method of controlling the pacing in games quickly died because it became pretty obvious that technology was not gonna be static, and further advances in CPU and OS design means that method will never make a comeback except in emulators like DOSBox. Today's games use something with a known timing (like the internal clock) to pace the game rather than relying on a fixed number of clock cycles.

. . . and I haven't a clue how any of you got into discussing things like machine code. This kind of thing can happen regardless of whether it was compiled or assembled.

[lurkinglurker]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

What you are writing is nonsense. Modern day coding simply uses (de)compilers to translate machine code into programming language and back.

Considering that this feature was discovered during testing, before it was even shipped, it cant be classified as a exploit. It was found, and upon consideration it was decided to leave it in(just like Lara boobs in TR games) as is. Most games go thru multiple iterations during their testing as new ideas and features are being added or old ones removed, often without prior planning. Not to mention most obvious definition, as speed up in that game gave player not advantages, feature that is essential for something to be an exploit.

What a glorious example of shifting goalposts. What has (de)compilers into modern programming languages in modern OSs with modern utterly-godlike-in-comparison PC hardware have to do with those antique first-generation arcade boards at the time when they first came out and the programming tools used to code those?

And why isn't this slowdown considered an exploit, especially given that I can always say this is a DEVELOPER-level exploit? (and yet, for all we know, it ISN'T a developer-level exploit. From what I remember, this is more a "Meh, it still works and we have no way to fix the hardware limitations, just release it" bug-disguised-as-feature.)

Not to mention an exploit does NOT need to be advantageous. Take Serious Sam's anti-piracy secret boss for example. People have purposely tripped the DRM protection on purpose just to "enjoy" this utterly broken boss... and yet it isn't advantageous. It is merely FUN.

Space Invader's speed-up isn't advantageous. But it sure is FUN.

And aren't games supposed to be all about FUN?

And to put this side-argument back on track: isn't that second block of your paragraph in the quote above, the "found and upon consideration it was decided to leave it in" argument you just made very relevant and applicable to ONI?? Seeing as, you know, the fixed temperature output is found and yet still released?

"Most games go thru multiple iterations during their testing as new ideas and features are being added or old ones removed, often without prior planning" you say... isn't that what the ONI devs are going through right now, and isn't fixed temperatures are one specific DEVELOPER-level exploit that is being left in?

 

Why then is it a bad thing?