Exploits ruin the game, they need to go

[trukogre]

5 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

That's fair. I presumed the discussion was specifically the build as I had made and used it but doing the math for current numbers makes more sense in the wider discussion.

Yea, don't get me wrong, your design is sweet and is a much more useful cooler overall, I just wanted to make clear that the water sieve is a great heat deleter.

3 minutes ago, jmf35 said:

See this is the type of "exploit" I can get behind. It requires ingenuity and effort to manipulate the gameplay mechanics. Buildings that "magic away the heat" when it's not their primary purpose (like wheeze & atn), don't make the player work or think creatively. They need to be fixed.

If everyone copies Jonny's design, everyone will have a surplus of cooling, and that's not creative at all, that's stagnant.  i've been arguing that petrol generators are overpowered coolers every since they came out, and that was based on just running them at -20 C.  Now he's running them at -200C? lol

[JonnyMonroe]

3 minutes ago, jmf35 said:

See this is the type of "exploit" I can get behind. It requires ingenuity and effort to manipulate the gameplay mechanics. Buildings that "magic away the heat" when it's not their primary purpose (like wheeze & atn), don't make the player work or think creatively. They need to be fixed.

I still consider it an exploit. I just take a very neutral stance on exploits. If an exploit leads to genuinely fun gameplay I don't have a problem with it. You could argue a mechanical filter is an exploit as it removes the need for filter devices but at the end of the day they're actually quite creative and well designed. When the discusion is 'this is an exploit' I can agree or disagree. When the discusion is 'this is an exploit and IT'S BAD!' well hey yo hol up, whether or not it's bad should be decided by 'does it make the game better or worse?' And honestly the answer to that question is completely subjective. I find sieves boring. I don't think wheezes are that interesting but they're limited so you at least have to grow beyond them eventually. But these big rube-goldberg contraptions? I enjoy them whether it's an exploit or not.

[jmf35]

2 minutes ago, trukogre said:

If everyone copies Jonny's design, everyone will have a surplus of cooling, and that's not creative at all, that's stagnant.

If someone spends all their time on the forum copying everyone else's designs, then this game has zero creatively. But isn't that on them, not the game. Even so it still takes many cycles to implement and "perfect" what they're "copying". That's clearly not the same as plopping down a single building. Not sure what you're argument is.

[trukogre]

1 minute ago, jmf35 said:

If someone spends all their time on the forum copying everyone else's designs, then this game has zero creatively. But isn't that on them, not the game. Even so it still takes many cycles to implement and "perfect" what they're "copying". That's clearly not the same as plopping down a single building. Not sure what you're argument is.

I don't agree that it takes a long time to implement and perfect things that people copy off the forums. My point is that things which are too overpowered but theoretically balanced by the 'difficulty of implementation' doesn't result in creativity, it results in players going around the difficulty by copying.

[KittenIsAGeek]

1 minute ago, jmf35 said:

If someone spends all their time on the forum copying everyone else's designs, then this game has zero creatively. But isn't that on them, not the game. Even so it still takes many cycles to implement and "perfect" what they're "copying". That's clearly not the same as plopping down a single building. Not sure what you're argument is.

I've seen some very creative designs using sieves (or other fixed-output buildings).  I've only seen a couple of examples where cooling was simply a matter of "plopping down a single building."   And in many cases, the fixed-output buildings work against you.  In my current base, for example, polluted water goes in at 31c and comes out at 40c.

[trukogre]

2 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Isn't that basically how Dark Souls is won . Unless you influence the difficulty of copying, I think that will always be a thing.

Well, you have the option of not making overpowered things gated behind 'difficulty of implementation', which at least reduces the incentive to copy.  It's important to distinguish between the overall difficulty of balancing the entire base, which the more fiddly difficulty of these goldbergian contraptions.  The latter type of difficulty is more susceptible to evasion through copying.

[jmf35]

5 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

I still consider it an exploit. I just take a very neutral stance on exploits. If an exploit leads to genuinely fun gameplay I don't have a problem with it.

For me, the line between "good exploit" and "bad exploit" is how many steps it takes to accomplish. Fertilizer maker, water sieve, drip cooling are basically "bad" single-step exploits (and not the intended purpose). Building complex contraptions are "good" even if the result is even more op.

[trukogre]

1 minute ago, jmf35 said:

For me, the line between "good exploit" and "bad exploit" is how many steps it takes to accomplish. Fertilizer maker, water sieve, drip cooling are basically "bad" single-step exploits (and not the intended purpose). Building complex contraptions are "good" even if the result is even more op.

This makes little or no sense.  So if you hide drip cooling in a complex yet unnecessary contraption it becomes 'good'?

[KittenIsAGeek]

Drip cooling is an example of an actual exploit.  There was an unintended effect from water falling into a pool that caused a rapid loss of heat.  The fixed-output buildings are part of the design, and therefore not an exploit.  If you do not like how they work, that's fine.  Write up a document detailing why you think they're broken and offer suggestions about how to fix them.    The post that started this thread won't change anything -- it will be ignored by the developers.  

[jmf35]

1 minute ago, trukogre said:

This makes little or no sense.  So if you hide drip cooling in a complex yet unnecessary contraption it becomes 'good'?

Nope. Because I specifically called out single-step exploits like drip cooling as being "bad".

[trukogre]

Just now, jmf35 said:

Nope. Because I specifically called out single-step exploits like drip cooling as being "bad".

Sorry, you haven't defined 'single-step' in a satisfactory way.

[KittenIsAGeek]

I mean, really.. how is one "exploit" better than another?  An exploit is an exploit.  The problem I see is that people are calling things exploits that aren't exploits at all.  Then we get rationalization "Well, this one takes WAY more steps, so you have to actually think about it to use it."  Um.. ... ok?

1 minute ago, turbonl64 said:

Shh, that is controversial to say around here! 

That's what makes the aquatuner itself a good cooling device conceptually. Even if you afterwards dump the coolant in a heat deleting device, you atleast had to build quite a complex structure and had to make sure temps weren't get too hot either for the pumps. I admittingly used in the past oil as coolant and afterwards removed the heat through dumping the oil into a refinery and ultimately a petroleum generator. Is that an exploit? By my own admission yes. Did I had to use a complex structure to make it happen? I had to put in a lot of automation to make sure downtime on replacing coolant and making sure the coolant is not too hot to damage the pump, so yes it was a complex solution. Would I agree with removing this exploit? Yes.

The water sieve on the other hand is cheaply easy.

Neither the process of turning oil into petroleum then burning it in your generator nor using the water sieve to purify polluted water to a cool 40c of pure water are exploits. 

[trukogre]

As an avid hiker, I'm glad that people are fans of taking so many steps.  Just remember, when you fall down a crevasse and a helicopter comes to rescue you, that's an exploit.

[jmf35]

1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Drip cooling is an example of an actual exploit.  There was an unintended effect from water falling into a pool that caused a rapid loss of heat.  The fixed-output buildings are part of the design, and therefore not an exploit.  If you do not like how they work, that's fine.  Write up a document detailing why you think they're broken and offer suggestions about how to fix them.    The post that started this thread won't change anything -- it will be ignored by the developers.  

I've already explained why they're broken and a way to fix it in my first post. And I'm saying any building whose primary purpose isn't to remove heat is an exploit. It's fine if you don't agree with my opinion. If you're that cynical that the devs don't listen, why are you wasting time arguing on a feedback forum?

[trukogre]

2 minutes ago, jmf35 said:

I've already explained why they're broken and a way to fix it in my first post. And I'm saying any building whose primary purpose isn't to remove heat is an exploit. It's fine if you don't agree with my opinion. If you're that cynical that the devs don't listen, why are you wasting time arguing on a feedback forum?

The feedback forum is that way: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forum/133-oxygen-not-included-suggestions-and-feedback/     This is the general discussion forum, where we discuss things like hiking, and ethics; judging by this thread.

[Neotuck]

The polymer press easily overheats when in use and currently the only way to maintain its temperature is by drip cooling

If you say this is a bad exploit to be removed then please offer a good alternative to maintain temperature on the polymer press

[jmf35]

2 minutes ago, trukogre said:

The feedback forum is that way: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forum/133-oxygen-not-included-suggestions-and-feedback/     This is the general discussion forum, where we discuss things like hiking, and ethics.

I didn't create this thread and my comments have been on topic so I don't see a problem. It's on you to contact a mod if you think this topic should be moved. Frankly it's pedantic.

[trukogre]

6 minutes ago, jmf35 said:

I didn't create this thread and my comments have been on topic so I don't see a problem. It's on you to contact a mod if you think this topic should be moved. Frankly it's pedantic.

I don't know what you're talking about, you called this the feedback forum, and I showed you where the feedback forum is.  Are you feeling ok?  Drink some water maybe? Not the polluted stuff, too much heat capacity.

6 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

The polymer press easily overheats when in use and currently the only way to maintain its temperature is by drip cooling

If you say this is a bad exploit to be removed then please offer a good alternative to maintain temperature on the polymer press

I don't agree that the only way to maintain its temperature is by drip cooling.  That said, are you really not able to distinguish between 'drip cooling' and the now removed ' drip cooling exploit', which some people sometimes refer to as just 'drip cooling' relying on the reader to pick up the intent from context, or is this post a joke?

[jmf35]

3 minutes ago, trukogre said:

I don't know what you're talking about, you called this the feedback forum, and I showed you where the feedback forum is.  Are you feeling ok?  Drink some water maybe?

Are we really going to start playing semantics? I said "a" feedback forum not "the" feedback forum! lol

[TehPlayer14]

13 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

The polymer press easily overheats when in use and currently the only way to maintain its temperature is by drip cooling

If you say this is a bad exploit to be removed then please offer a good alternative to maintain temperature on the polymer press

I managed to prevent overheat with hydrogen room thats colled with nullifier

[trukogre]

1 minute ago, jmf35 said:

Are we really going to start playing semantics? I said "a" feedback forum not "the" feedback forum! lol

No, because it takes two to play, and I won't join you

[chemie]

15 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

The polymer press easily overheats when in use and currently the only way to maintain its temperature is by drip cooling

If you say this is a bad exploit to be removed then please offer a good alternative to maintain temperature on the polymer press

You dont need drip cooling.  Put in cold h2 room or automate with 75% on time to allow it to cool.

[WanderingKid]

I keep debating on if I should even put my $0.02 into here.  Still debating it's not putting foot on the landmine, but here we go.

Natural Gas from crude oil on top of a magma heater pouring valved values into nearly frozen Nat Gas Generators is off the charts for power gained.  It requires some wheezeworts, yes, to cool off the gas as it pressures itself over to where you can pick it up without melting your gas pumps, but still.

And yes, I copied the design.  Does that matter?  But really, if we're going to get into the exploit vs. design choices conversations, let's really go for the ones that I hope the devs will actually consider more than "oh, your aquatuner can cool off some of the output... okay, yeah, we'll decide if that needs to change eventually". 

If 'difficulty to implement' is an item that the devs use to gauge any particular component of the game, there's a few tons of new players that will be FORCED to go to the forums to play the game.  That is not a valid ruler in my mind.  You must see the game as an average player would, and that is 'time spent enjoying trying' to 'enough time spent, what the hell is the fix'... and going to a forum.  That marker is what will decide where players find things too challenging, and it is amazingingly individual.  Also, you've got other sources, such as reddit, to consider, where if a player (like myself) doesn't like going to it a lot of stuff they would usually know would be missed.

Knowledge comes from wherever you decide to glean it.  How *hard* something is to implement should not be the consideration when deciding if something's mechanics are broken.  I had no idea how the borg cube worked, but I could certainly snap the parts into it and watch everything freeze to death.  I pulled it apart because I was curious why it worked, but that's another conversation. 

Currently there are no known 'exploits' that the devs aren't actively working on.  There's a bunch of bugs in the pipes right now and they're causing havoc and mayhem, but it's not like there's a few dozen youtube channels going and abusing that.  There are existing mechanics.  These mechanics may upset people because they don't require enough difficulty to make it challenging enough.  I accept that as a choice and certainly can be used to decide an opinion and look to get feedback either from the devs or other users to see if a debate will settle in one way or another for the devs to decide on.

The word 'exploit' annoys the heck out of me in this case.  An exploit is something that's clearly NOT part of the game's design, such as glitching a map wall past a Zelda boss or how the 'drip cooling bug' (note, drip cooling is a usable thing, they're different) would create frozen lakes because of the mass switches, but it took a while to figure out how that bug was generating.  In this case, it's just too easy?  Alright, that's fair, but let's call it what it is: "My stuff doesn't look cool enough because there's methods that most players can figure out that don't make my thing look so damned cool."

No, that's not polite, but that's what it is.  Does using an aquatuner/sieve setup hurt you at all?  No.  Most newer players would have enough of a problem even getting it to have enough power.  It's a shortcut that I would like to see more obvious in the tooltips for the tool so that other players can learn what we already know without having to come to the forums to find out what we consider 'basic knowledge'. 

These design shortcuts for player use aren't an exploit, they're part of the game design.  Let's have that design conversation, and let's ignore 'complexity'.  "Hey, that's a really cool neat trick" happens once, and then it's part of EVERY base from then on.  There's no complexity to that, it's script kiddie stuff.  I don't need to know how it works to make it happen.

Let's have a discussion as to what should *happen* in the design, overall, and not why one method should be cool and another should be shot apart on entry.

[trukogre]

1 minute ago, chemie said:

You dont need drip cooling.  Put in cold h2 room or automate with 75% on time to allow it to cool.

or, float it on a diamond raft drifting through a sea of liquid oxygen.  As the white flakes drift from the press in the lazy winds of crystal oxygen, floating to and fro, your dupes will frolic in the pale sunlight, until they are snorted up into the tube system, a prehensile nostril hungering for the precious white snow

[Sevio]

Wow this thread really exploded! Whether we call it an exploit or not, either way it is clear that using a water sieve for large scale heat deletion is not the primary purpose of the machine. (that purpose is simply purifying water and generating waste heat, as the tooltip says) Just as natgas power is not the primary purpose of the fertilizer maker, yet it was used that way for a long time until it was finally addressed in a power economy rework.

I also keep seeing remarks like this: "If you think deleting heat with water sieves is an exploit, don't use it!".

The problem with that argument is that whenever dealing with heat comes up, everything will be compared to the path of least resistance/most reward. It removes the necessity to address and discuss the proper cooling solutions that we should use instead, or that we would like to see from the devs. Because the same people who tell you not to use it, then turn around and say there is no heat problem since you can simply delete it in a water sieve.