(Cosmic Upgrade) Output of geysers is too low now

[BlueLance]

I think the possible options would be;

• Reduce the power output of Nat Gas Gens to 600W
• Reduce the amount of nat gas from synthesizers
• Change the waste of sythesizers to some other material
• Increase the heat generated by combustion
• increase the consumption of PW when using synthesizers

I mean each of those would have some sort of effect towards the whole sythesizer to nat gas set up. If they don't change anything i wont complain because I don't use it, and heck each to their own!

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

Reduce the power output of Nat Gas Gens to 600W

I really hate this change, cause it would reduce the "stored" energy inside the Nat gas and would mostly punish early colonies using natural occurring gas.

(Furthermore this keeps the natural gas geysers worthwile)

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

Reduce the amount of nat gas from synthesizers

Would love that change, cause it would mostly punish players using big synthesizer plants in maps without any need for it.

(This nerfs the in my opinonion "best" gesyer: the slush geyser.)

 

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

Change the waste of sythesizers to some other material

Good idea. But I´m not sure which materials would be reasonable.

 

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

Increase the heat generated by combustion

Not sure if that would be a good way to go ...

 

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

increase the consumption of PW when using synthesizers

One of the easier solutions, but still a good one. But nerfing the possible power you could achiev wit ha given amount of polluted water feels wrong to me.

 

1 hour ago, BlueLance said:

I mean each of those would have some sort of effect towards the whole sythesizer to nat gas set up. If they don't change anything i wont complain because I don't use it, and heck each to their own!

Done it in one of my bases and if this loop is running you can forget about power ....(Not a playstyle I appreciate)

[Neotuck]

Funny how some people complain that micromanaging a build is too annoying  (like egg farming) yet as soon as a build works and is fully automated (synths and NG gens) people want to nerf it because there's not enough micromanaging

 

[0xFADE]

I am more of a fan of buffing other things rather than constantly trying to reduce the usefulness of something else. 

[beowulf2010]

5 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

I am more of a fan of buffing other things rather than constantly trying to reduce the usefulness of something else. 

In general, you have to do both. Power creep can be just as damaging to a product as overuse of the nerf hammer. 

Overall, this particular change seems to be more for balancing NGGs against Slickster farms and cooking oil to natural gas. I think geysers were either overlooked by accident or ignored because they are on the list for a balancing pass at a later (hopefully soon) date. 

[0xFADE]

They killed the co2 output of the ngg already.  It isn't even a 1/4th of amount of input gas when it used to be more than 100% of the input gas.

Boiling oil isn't something to start trying to trivialize either.

If they want to address something inherently broken why not actually deal with the fixed output temperatures of stuff.

I can feed 40c cleaned water in to a refinery.  Raise it to 73c from making refined Iron.  Feed it in to sinks and toilets and turn it right back in to 40c clean water completely ignoring the heat generation inherent in the design of the refinery.  That is a lot more broken.

[beowulf2010]

30 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

They killed the co2 output of the ngg already.  It isn't even a 1/4th of amount of input gas when it used to be more than 100% of the input gas.

Boiling oil isn't something to start trying to trivialize either.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. I'm not even claiming that it makes sense. Just saying what it feels like to me. Most likely this is just one change in a series they're going to look at. 

As for the polluted water heat deletion feature, I'd be shocked if that stays as currently designed once they finish adding in most of the new buildings they want. 

What I'd like to see from the fixed temp output machines is to move the temperature towards a specific temp 5 to 10 degrees at a time instead of the +50 to - 70 that the Water Sieve can currently do. 

But until we get a few more true cooling/heat deletion options, I think it needs to stay for the near term. (Wheezeworts, AETN, venting to space, NGG self cooling and boiling Polluted Water, what am I missing?) 

[0xFADE]

They did give us that fan thing I don't think anyone ever uses.  Needing a dupe to power it is likely why it is so bad.

[avc15]

9 hours ago, Neotuck said:

Funny how some people complain that micromanaging a build is too annoying  (like egg farming) yet as soon as a build works and is fully automated (synths and NG gens) people want to nerf it because there's not enough micromanaging

 

meh, building and automating more systems isn't micromanagement.

nat gas was too good. Now it's still pretty damn good.

I also didn't see many people "calling nerf" on this, I do see a couple people saying "well it was coming anyway". Pretty big difference.

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, 0xFADE said:

They did give us that fan thing I don't think anyone ever uses.  Needing a dupe to power it is likely why it is so bad.

As far as I could tell, it doesn't actually remove heat.  It just pushes it around at the cost of Water, a precious resource that you cannot afford to waste on something with no actual benefit.

So in an area that is overall ~30 C, running the Hydrofan for a while will eventually lead to ~23 C immediately near the Hydrofan, ~37 C in a middling distance range, and ~30 C outside that.

[avc15]

23 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

As far as I could tell, it doesn't actually remove heat.

Hydrofan's building stats say it consumes 80W of heat. If I'm not mistaken (due to bizarro units) that makes it worth about the same as a wheezewort breathing oxygen.

 

They're actually quite useful in the beginning of the game to keep your farms operating temporarily until you can get some real cooling going.

[Kabrute]

i've found that running cool water to a hydro tile tends to act like a giant heat sink, with the heat absorbed being deleted into the plants.

I only got the insulation in 3 cycles ago and its already cooling those side tiles down

was at 32c before the insulation went in, but deleting the heat in the water keeps driving the temps down and now my hydrotile that was at 30c is at a much more comfy 27

 

[AliVaja]

Well,...So...

First they change the  range output of natural geysers and after that they change how much generators require gas (60-->90 as i'v been reading). That seems quite a extreme changes overall and comments here haven't changed my mind about how I feel about this. Although it seems that there is confusion on whether output of geysers was changed. From my experience (of one game) the out was indeed changed!

NGG were previously a go to power source for me. I used them to their full potential until late game. Nerfing NGGs to extend where I feel they can be pretty much completely useless is...bad. And rolling a new map just because I got low end output of geysers, as been suggest here by some, is just stupid. I also don't see anything wrong with figuring something out and using it all the time. That is what games are. Figuring how mechanics work and then exploit them to fullest. Games aren't by design ever changing but rather static with specific mechanics.

I haven't played Ranch mark I and II and thus it is quite a change for me and as I understand breeding hatches for coal is a thing now witch helps greatly to mitigate nerfs on NGGs. But if that is true then what's the point of NGGs anymore, if they can be completely useless because of the range point.

I personally think that NGG change from 60 to 90 wasn't good and especially  added range variable out put of geysers is something that was pulled straight from the ass. If you are concern about Synt. fertilizer and NGG looping being overpowered, just change synt, fertilizers.

[Guest]

My suspision is that the developers found natural gas generators were overused, but missed out initially on the reason why. They thought "oh, the geysers probably still output too much. Let's make that a bit more difficult.". Only afterwards when we were seriously saying "look your changes only make the natural gas geysers even more useless" they finally figured it out.

I propose 2 things:

-Reduce direct oil to gas conversion ratio.

-Increase Natural Gas Geyser production significantly.

[BlueLance]

32 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

-Reduce direct oil to gas conversion ratio.

-Increase Natural Gas Geyser production significantly.

I don't use the former, but it is a massive amount. So i do agree it should be reduced.

As for geyser they don't need to be massively buffed (They do need some sort of buff or at least have their minimum range reduced), you don't have to run a base off of a single power source. If people default to the same power source every single time it just means its either too OP or the others are all underpowered. If a geyser has a natural output of 45 grams per second after calculations, people just dismiss it as rubbish, but thats power stored, ready to be used when/if you need it. It is free power that literally requires no maintenance and provides you with two additional by products which can both be really useful.

The devs might have just reduced it because with it as it was no one had to use alternatives, I purposefully make my natural gas my second source of power otherwise it just becomes the only source my base needs. 

I use my Hydrogen first, its a byproduct that I can get rid of with no byproducts being created.

Natural Gas is second. Even on my vanilla maps I still have plenty of it.

[WanderingKid]

2 hours ago, BlueLance said:

If people default to the same power source every single time it just means its either too OP or the others are all underpowered.

I disagree.  I default to all power sources in nearly ever game, because I pretty much ignore the geysers entirely.  Every one of them is not worth the infrastructure in time and materials until after you've gotten near this items being the 'only sustainable thing left'.  All these changes to the fert have done is remove one of the multi-sources I was using previously, PH2O.  Besides that, I use coal first, Hydrogen second.  I tend to get coal in play in cycle 4/5 to get that dupe back out of the manual power requirements and working on something else.  Coal and Hydrogen don't tend to get phased out for me for a while.  I typically simply continuously need more power, so I get all of them to work. 

The only thing the fertilizer arrays did was allow you to not have to go to the stronger choices.  Ferts no longer working in an upgrade path for more power just means I skip it Natural Gas entirely to one of the other choices unless it's literally "In the way" of my already being processed manufacturing.   This isn't the fault of the NGGs, it's the fault of the fertilizer synthesizer being the only path to provide enough NGG to make it worth it the time to build the infrastructure.  I spend that time now getting an extra drill site or two closer to where I can get at the oil and/or time to make local air production buildings for the eventual exosuit army needed in the area.  NGG infrastructure typically didn't need anything more than a few deodorizers and occasionally locking a dupe out of the area to avoid slimelung.

[AnotherBoris]

Erm... My English is bad, but i try to say

In RU2 PWater was a fuel. 1 kg PWater -> (1 NG Generator + 3 Fertilizer Synthesizer) = 1150J Energy, 223.5g CO2, 941.2 g Fertilizer. And we can't use so many Fertilizer. So we store it or destroy.

But now (CU) we have unlimited Regolith!

PWater emit POxygen. 1Kg PWater-> 1KG POxygen -> Deodorizer = 1433.3g Clay + 900g Oxygen.

Clay ->. Hatches = 716.65g Coal

Coal -> Coal Generator = 429.99J Energy + 14.333g CO2

So now we can use PWater as oxygen generator with positive energy output. And if we will use PWater from Cool Slush Geyser, it will be a big cooler too.

 

So... NG geysers become weaker? Ok. I lose 500-1000W Energy from it.But instead i do not produce heat from Electolysers and prduce some energy from Oxygen generator. 1 Duplicant use 60kg Oxygen per Cycle. Its require 66.6 kg PWater and poroduce 2855J Energy. Or 47.77W. For my usual 6 Duplicants its 286.66 W.

As result by nerfing NG Vents i lose only 200-700W generation, some heat generation, and tonns of useless fertilizer. Hmm... i can live with it