Drip Cooling Termination

[w3amd]

As with every positive, there's a negative. In this case, cancelation of drip cooling's positive effect for cooling works in reverse. There is no longer Drip Heating!

[Oozinator]

17 minutes ago, w3amd said:

As with every positive, there's a negative. In this case, cancelation of drip cooling's positive effect for cooling works in reverse. There is no longer Drip Heating!

Weird things happening. My idle dupes invented own "cool" religion and praying now to "Goglompfhet".

[Mutineer]

They really should make Fun more efficient. Currently, it consumes a lot of water and can not cool its own tie. Ridiculous. One need some source of cooling before fancy stuff available with removing drip cooling.

[chemie]

31 minutes ago, Mutineer said:

They really should make Fun more efficient. Currently, it consumes a lot of water and can not cool its own tie. Ridiculous. One need some source of cooling before fancy stuff available with removing drip cooling.

I disagree.  I have never needed/used drip cooling; ever.  I did sometimes have it trigger and breaking working cooling designs so I am glad they fixed.

[Lutzkhie]

there is this one time i accidentally used drip cooling and posted it here and they said that i was using drip cooling ever since i learned about that exploit i never used it again so i dont really care if they remove it

[Giltirn]

6 hours ago, chemie said:

I disagree.  I have never needed/used drip cooling; ever.  I did sometimes have it trigger and breaking working cooling designs so I am glad they fixed.

You perhaps use some other exploit? Fixed temperature output devices for example? Or do you actually subsist on worts and the AETN? If so, bravo!

[rodr]

6 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

Fixed temperature output devices for example?

Not an exploit.

[Mutineer]

6 hours ago, chemie said:

I disagree.  I have never needed/used drip cooling; ever.  I did sometimes have it trigger and breaking working cooling designs so I am glad they fixed.

What you disagree with? I did not say do not fix exploit, I asked to make a device useful.

[Giltirn]

3 minutes ago, rodr said:

Not an exploit.

I'm afraid I disagree. Fixed temperature output devices are going to be patched out eventually, as drip cooling was in this patch. It has already been removed from showers and toilets I believe, and it is only a matter of time before these other machines get the same treatment. That they currently exist is most likely because the devs have not yet gotten around to implementing a real solution to the heat problem which would inevitably plague every base once they make the change.

[rodr]

45 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

I'm afraid I disagree.

You are free to disagree (doesn't make your view right), but its a feature that's currently in the game unlike drip cooling which was a bug in code.  There's a difference between stop-gap behavior and exploitation of buggy code.  Words are important.  I understand your point that it will probably be patched out, but not everything that is "magically beneficial" is an exploit.  Words have meaning for a reason.  An exploit in this sense is an approach that takes advantage of a flaw in code, such as drop cooling, whereas this is simply using defined parameters that may or may not change in future releases.  People get bothered when you call them out for leveraging an exploit, and that word is thrown around on this forum entirely too much by naysayers who disagree with alpha stage mechanics.  Drop cooling, exploit for sure, static output is intended behavior at this stage in development.

That static behavior doesn't mean though its locked in, and will probably change in the future but I'm fairly certain the developers did it intentionally, thus removing the constraints of exploit definition unless used broadly in a non-computer science sense.

[PhailRaptor]

2 hours ago, Giltirn said:

I'm afraid I disagree. Fixed temperature output devices are going to be patched out eventually...

While I certainly hope it gets changed, it is an intended mechanic as per the devs.  There is no exploit involved, as it is intended behavior.

There is nothing wrong with the opinion, but using your opinion to overrule the declarations of the devs is inherently wrong.  You don't have any leg to stand on there.

[llunak]

25 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

While I certainly hope it gets changed, it is an intended mechanic as per the devs.  There is no exploit involved, as it is intended behavior.

There is nothing wrong with the opinion, but using your opinion to overrule the declarations of the devs is inherently wrong.  You don't have any leg to stand on there.

Do you have a link for that? (AKA [citation needed])

[crypticorb]

The fixed temperature outputs of water sieves and CO2 skimmers was intentionally added by the devs, I believe in direct response to a need for some means of cooling. Think of it as extending an olive branch to us testers to tide us over until they implement a real cooling system.

My hope is that when they DO add some form of cooling system, they allow us to keep the fixed outputs for at least one update cycle, because taking away something that long-term bases heavily rely upon before getting the new cooling system in place will be difficult.

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, Giltirn said:

I'm afraid I disagree. Fixed temperature output devices are going to be patched out eventually, as drip cooling was in this patch. It has already been removed from showers and toilets I believe, and it is only a matter of time before these other machines get the same treatment. That they currently exist is most likely because the devs have not yet gotten around to implementing a real solution to the heat problem which would inevitably plague every base once they make the change.

Do you have a link where the devs have stated they are getting rid of fixed-output devices?  The last one I read from them was that the fixed-output devices were working as intended.

Second.. if you consider constant-output devices to be an exploit.. how DO you keep your base cool?

[Giltirn]

16 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Do you have a link where the devs have stated they are getting rid of fixed-output devices?  The last one I read from them was that the fixed-output devices were working as intended.

Second.. if you consider constant-output devices to be an exploit.. how DO you keep your base cool?

I use wheezeworts and the AETN. If fixed-output devices are intentional as a stopgap solution then I suppose I'll keep quiet, but it would be a shame for a game that quite clearly prides itself on having a realistic simulation of thermodynamics to have such glaring flaws in the final release.

[Coolthulhu]

5 hours ago, Giltirn said:

I'm afraid I disagree. Fixed temperature output devices are going to be patched out eventually, as drip cooling was in this patch. It has already been removed from showers and toilets I believe, and it is only a matter of time before these other machines get the same treatment.

Toilets and showers only had it because of a bug, not by design. The bug was fixed, it didn't require a total redesign like what """fixing""" the fixed temperature mechanic would require.

[KittenIsAGeek]

4 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

I use wheezeworts and the AETN. If fixed-output devices are intentional as a stopgap solution then I suppose I'll keep quiet, but it would be a shame for a game that quite clearly prides itself on having a realistic simulation of thermodynamics to have such glaring flaws in the final release.

I'm not sure "realistic" is how I would describe ONI's thermodynamics.  Does it have similarities with reality? Yeah.  Kinda.  Unlike a real asteroid, we have a LOT of heat injected into a closed system in the form of geysers, vents, and volcanoes.  A real asteroid isn't a closed system: thermal energy is continually lost into space.  Wheezeworts and the AETN are not enough to counter all of the heat energy injected into the asteroid.  They can counter the heat generated by running your base, but they can be quickly overwhelmed by a volcano or two.  Heck, I couldn't even get an AETN to reliably cool down my boiler system until I cut the polluted water flow rate down to below 1kg/s.

And then there's the gasses.  Ever had a natural gas leak in your base?  Yeah, that much oxygen mixed with natural gas in the real world would be a disaster waiting to happen.  Or hey, what about Hydrogen gas vents at 500c?  Hydrogen auto-ignition starts at 500c.  So..where's the fire?

[llunak]

1 hour ago, crypticorb said:

The fixed temperature outputs of water sieves and CO2 skimmers was intentionally added by the devs, I believe in direct response to a need for some means of cooling. Think of it as extending an olive branch to us testers to tide us over until they implement a real cooling system.

 

I'd really like to see where they say that, because fixed temperature outputs are the primary reasons my bases get cooked (especially when I was new to the game and had no idea the devices acted in such a stupid way). If the primary source of heat problems is supposed to help me with them, then I'm either too smart or too stupid for this game.

It just plain doesn't make sense to me and I don't believe it. If this were true, why would the water sieve output temperature be so relatively high? Normally polluted water is cooler than that, so normally it in fact adds heat and only an experienced player knows the ways how to abuse it to remove heat.

18 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Second.. if you consider constant-output devices to be an exploit.. how DO you keep your base cool?

By keeping the heat away or not creating it in the first place. Wheezeworts and AETNs. Oh, and of course, by taking special care of these lame water sieves and other devices that make things hotter than they should be.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Just now, llunak said:

It just plain doesn't make sense to me and I don't believe it. If this were true, why would the water sieve output temperature be so relatively high? Normally polluted water is cooler than that, so normally it in fact adds heat and only an experienced player knows the ways how to abuse it to remove heat.

I posted in another thread that constant thermal output buildings do make some sense.  For example, there is a direct co-relation between reverse osmosis efficiency and water temperature.  Perhaps 40c is the "perfect" point where flow rate is maximized while not yet hot enough to damage the membrane holding the filtration medium (aka sand).  There is also a relationship between temperature and electrolyzer efficiency.  There are published articles about high temperature electrolysis using steam.  Be glad ONI electrolyzers aren't THAT hot!    Certainly, as far as real-world physics are concerned, its a little wonky to have a fixed-thermal-output device, but for a simulated game world its actually quite reasonable to have some machines function this way.

[neoazureus]

47 minutes ago, llunak said:

It just plain doesn't make sense to me and I don't believe it. If this were true, why would the water sieve output temperature be so relatively high? Normally polluted water is cooler than that, so normally it in fact adds heat and only an experienced player knows the ways how to abuse it to remove heat.

Do some maths

Polluted Water: Specific Heat Capacity = 6 J/g/K

Water: Specific Heat Capacity = 4.179 J/g/K

Water Sieve: input = 5kg/s polluted water, output = 5kg/s water (40°C = 313.15°K )

Heat that water contains:

5kg/s water = 4.179 J/g/K * 5000g * 313.15°K = 6 543 269 J

The same amount of heat for polluted water:

equation: 6 J/g/K * 5000g * T = 6 543 269 J

T = 218.11°K = -55.04°C (Polluted Ice)

Conclusion: then it's impossible to generate heat from the conversion of polluted water using the water sieve because you can not supply polluted water at -55.04°C

Don't think about temperature, You need to think about energy

 

 

[Giltirn]

58 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I'm not sure "realistic" is how I would describe ONI's thermodynamics.

The thing about simulations is that you have to cut some corners here and there in order to make it computationally tractable, but the key is to encapsulate the important behavior with at least a decent approximation. Given that the game has such advanced concepts as thermal conductivity and specific heat, it is clear that they are trying to simulate real-world physics. I see these things and I have an expectation that the systems are going to behave in an intuitive way (intuitive, at least, for people who have some familiarity with thermodynamics). Then along comes fixed-output devices which break pretty much every rule in the book. Perhaps this one of the cut corners, but it irks me not that people abuse it but that there is no real alternative but to abuse it.

Edit: It's like if you were playing Kerbal Space Program, and some engine didn't require fuel to operate. If such a thing existed then real-world concepts represented in the game like isp would be utterly irrelevant - merely window dressing. This is how I feel when I look at the stats page for a material in ONI: wow guys, you went to such lengths to simulate the heat capacity of this block of stone, but you also have machines that break energy conservation - it just makes no sense.

[llunak]

7 minutes ago, neoazureus said:

Conclusion: then it's impossible to generate heat from the conversion of polluted water using the water sieve because you can not supply polluted water at -55.04°C

Hmm, ok, my bad.

But then, your math doesn't really change much in my case, I just incorrectly complained about water sieves but now I see I should have complained about showers and sinks. They output the same amount of polluted water as is their input, at the same temperature. So it's them adding the heat that the water sieve doesn't entirely remove. Otherwise showers and sinks should be outputting polluted ice, according to your math.

[Giltirn]

53 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I posted in another thread that constant thermal output buildings do make some sense.  For example, there is a direct co-relation between reverse osmosis efficiency and water temperature.  Perhaps 40c is the "perfect" point where flow rate is maximized while not yet hot enough to damage the membrane holding the filtration medium (aka sand).  There is also a relationship between temperature and electrolyzer efficiency.  There are published articles about high temperature electrolysis using steam.  Be glad ONI electrolyzers aren't THAT hot!    Certainly, as far as real-world physics are concerned, its a little wonky to have a fixed-thermal-output device, but for a simulated game world its actually quite reasonable to have some machines function this way.

Of course there is nothing wrong with fixed thermal-output devices. The point is that if you put in energy and hot liquid to the sieve, and get cooler liquid out then the energy both of the liquid and the electrical power must be transferred to the device and to the polluted dirt. Thus the system cannot remove heat, only move it about.

[neoazureus]

On 28/04/2018 at 8:53 PM, llunak said:

Hmm, ok, my bad.

But then, your math doesn't really change much in my case, I just incorrectly complained about water sieves but now I see I should have complained about showers and sinks. They output the same amount of polluted water as is their input, at the same temperature. So it's them adding the heat that the water sieve doesn't entirely remove. Otherwise showers and sinks should be outputting polluted ice, according to your math.

You are right, these constructions generate heat. In general, if polluted water and water have the same temperature, you generate heat by converting water> polluted water, and you remove heat by converting polluted water> water at the same temperature.

More maths:

If your input in water sieve is polluted water at 50°C = 323.15°K

DeltaT = 323.15°K - 218.11°K = 105.04°K

Heat for polluted water with DeltaT:

6 J/g/K * 5000g * 105.04°K = 3 151 200 J = 3.151 MJ

But water sieve input is 5 kg/s, then water sieve remove 3.151 MJ/s = 3.151 MW = 3 151 KW

A whezeewort can remove 12 KW in hydrogen. So a water sieve = 262.6 whezeeworts.

You can raise the temperature of the polluted water more than 50°C before passing it through the water sieve

And you forget lavatory, lavatory generates more mass at the same temperature than water, so it generates much more energy than showers and sinks

[jodamm]

I'm using cold water (around 20 °C) for the toilets and showers. With the polluted water from their output i'm cooling the aquatuners where the cold water comes from. The polluted water is heated up until it boils to steam, and the steam is cooled down and the resulting water is send thru the aquatuners again. With this setup for every 1000g water that is used in the toilet or shower around 189384 J of energy is removed.

Polluted water will boil around 124°C and requires 6J/g/K * 1000g * 104 K (diff. from 20°C to 124°C) = 624000 J to boil to steam.

To cool the steam back to cold water 4.179J/g/K *1000g * 104 K = 434616 J must be removed.

With this energy i can cool down around 600g additional hot water from 95°C to 20°C for every 1000g water used by the dupes.

No sand needed, germs killed, no fixed thermal output needed.