Willow the Fire...fighter?

[kertinker]

Willow is an interesting character, because she is not good at starting fires, yet people think she is. She gets a lighter, but torches are easy to craft. Anyone can grab a torch and ignite something. She's not better at it than anyone else. Her fires aren't bigger, don't spread faster, or anything. Given the choice between Willow with her lighter, and Wickerbottom reading The End is Nigh, I can tell you who's gonna burn your base down, and she doesn't have pigtails. Heck, with Wolfgang's mighty speed buff, he can light fires faster than Willow, as can an overcharged WX-78 (after Wickerbottom read The End is Nigh).

What's interesting is that Willow is good at stopping fires. She has 3 seconds of fire damage immunity, half fire damage, and she's entirely immune to the burning from putting out smouldering objects. She can run into a burning base, collect everything that's catching on fire, and save more than any other character. She'll get sanity from doing so, and won't lose nearly as much health. All she has to do is momentarily dart out of the flames, and she's got 3 more seconds of fire suppression. She might even be able to go into smouldering chests, to grab ice, where other characters would burn to death trying to extinguish the chest to access it.

So it's really bizarre that she's "the character who burns down your base." Is it because she starts with a lighter, and griefers are just so stupid they can't even craft a torch? No, I think it's entirely our assumptions about her. Purely from her dialog, and her delight at being near fire and burning things, it leads us to assume she's the best for starting fires, and always use her to do so. It's actually really good, because people who only care about hurting others (not the game) will make the mistake of picking her, then be less effective, and more vulnerable to being outclassed by the better characters. People who hide their fear of caring about anything behind self-deprecatory humor, they pick Willow, and their days are numbered. If they picked Wigfrid they could linger longer, and make life harder for more people.

Y'know unless someone actually points it out, then everyone would know Willow's not who they should use to grief, but hey, who'd be stupid enough to do that?

So that makes Willow the best firefighter, for literal flames, and for containing destructive sprees by malicious players.

[CaptainChaotica]

You know where that comes from?  Her ORIGINAL self.  The singleplayer version...

--Has a lighter that _never runs out_.

--INFINITE fire immunity

--Does not freeze when insane

--Also doesn't have Bernie, though

--And most importantly...STARTS FIRES AUTOMATICALLY WHEN INSANE.

Yep.  That last one is the biggest problem, why they massively changed her for multiplayer and why, even though she was only singleplayer Willow for a short time during the beta, EVERYONE thinks of her as "the base burner".  For a thing that she totally doesn't even do anymore, she still and probably forever has the bad reputation and cries of "BAN THE WILLOW!" will follow the poor girl to her grave.

That said, I played singleplayer first and Willow was more or less my main, so I'm used to it--I know the warning signs and when to take a straw roll and some meatballs and just sleep _away_ from base for a night until I'm uncrazied.  But, I'm in the minority that way when it comes to DST...I totally get why they changed her (although not so keen on _how_) and I get that most Together players, this IS their introduction to this whole universe; they've had no experience at all with the singleplayer version and most _don't even know there are differences_.

Still, I have also used her fire-FIGHTING abilities as well.  I can remember more than once a little fire started in the base and I just ran in there like "I'll handle it!" and everything was fine.  The ironic thing is that original-flavour Willow is the absolute BEST at fighting...her own fires.  : P

(Also bear in mind that singleplayer does not have smouldering.  Fires spread INSTANTLY!  Anybody know where I can find a smouldering mod for regular DS?  I would use the heck out of that.)

...Notorious

[kertinker]

12 hours ago, CaptainChaotica said:

You know where that comes from?  Her ORIGINAL self.  The singleplayer version...

Most people playing DST just like... pull up the game for the first time, and see that she's the one holding a lighter. They never even played the singleplayer version. Yeah, she's ridiculously firestarty in single player. I was just thinking about the massive nerfs, and how they didn't affect people's choice to use her to burn stuff.

Unless you're saying they made her burn stuff in singleplayer, in order to fool people into trying to use her in multiplayer? That'd be diabolically clever, but I don't think thatis the case. If I recall she used to burn stuff when insane in multiplayer too, and they just had to remove it... so they acidentally nerfed her so hard, she's now the opposite of a fire starter!

Hey, maybe there could even be lore about it. Like, before Charlie took over, Willow burned down her own base and died in the cold so much that it traumatized her, so that's why now that she's with the others, she freezes when insane, and doesn't light fires anymore.

[Naveil]

I guess it’s just basic psychology. Character is named ‘The Firestarter’, so what comes to most people’s minds is “hey, that girl must be good at lighting fires!”

As for the griefing point, you clearly haven’t played enough DST. Any griefer, in any game, is always Willow. Seriously, when I rarely encounter griefers, they’re always Willow. So to answer your question:

17 hours ago, kertinker said:

are griefers just so stupid they can't even craft a torch?

Yep

[Korlie]

It's not that she's good at starting fires in the context that she's skilled at igniting them, it's in the context that she's good at starting fires because she has so little moral or ethical regard for the consequences and she gets off on it that she is good at starting fires. Normal people aren't good at starting fires because normal people don't want to burn everything.

It's why she's called The Firestarter, because she starts lots of fires. The action doesn't really take skill in most contexts, just requires the materials and basic knowledge. It's more about being the kind of person who would do it then being the kind of person who could.

49 minutes ago, Naveil said:

As for the griefing point, you clearly haven’t played enough DST. Any griefer, in any game, is always Willow. Seriously, when I rarely encounter griefers, they’re always Willow. So to answer your question:

Using Willow means they don't have to spend time gathering the resources to craft torches to keep themselves alive in the dark until they find something to burn, since they start off with the lighter which will last for multiple full nights. It's just convenience.

[Ressayez]

1 hour ago, Naveil said:

Any griefer, in any game, is always Willow. Seriously, when I rarely encounter griefers, they’re always Willow. 

help
there are tentacles at spawn and base just got struck by lightning a bunch

please kick wilbow for griefig

[kertinker]

1 hour ago, Korlie said:

 the resources to craft torches

It's two grass! And two twigs!

[CaptainChaotica]

3 hours ago, kertinker said:

If I recall she used to burn stuff when insane in multiplayer too, and they just had to remove it... so they acidentally nerfed her so hard, she's now the opposite of a fire starter!

THAT'S the part I meant, really.  She used to autonomously set fires in multiplayer...doesn't anymore...lots of people don't seem to have gotten that memo.  Even though it was _years_ ago.

Sure, there's the "more tendency to burn things because of the description" thing as well, but a LOT of people's fear of having a Willow around goes back to singleplayer.  I saw that happen myself...last year.  2017.  _Late_ 2017.  I had to sit down and explain to people that changes had happened!  They were like "BUH?!"

Then again, these were also the same people who had SO never made it to summer, they thought my endothermic firepit was a mod, so...  : P

...Notorious

[Mr.Mulk]

On ‎3‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 6:16 PM, Naveil said:

I guess it’s just basic psychology. Character is named ‘The Firestarter’, so what comes to most people’s minds is “hey, that girl must be good at lighting fires!”

As for the griefing point, you clearly haven’t played enough DST. Any griefer, in any game, is always Willow. Seriously, when I rarely encounter griefers, they’re always Willow. So to answer your question:

Yep

I've got a lot of hours on pubs and I've run into way more Wilson griefers than Willow. Heck, I've even run into people who'll play Wolfgang just for the extra hunger burn to try and waste other people's food.

I don't know, most people keep talking about the griefers that are super stupid and just start burning stuff, but most of the one's I've encountered are sneaky bastards who use other game mechanics to their advantage (like disconnecting with valuables, smashing structures as werebeaver, eating extra food as wolf).

[JohnWatson]

[Korlie]

7 hours ago, JohnWatson said:

So I think the thought process is that griefers are fundamentally stupid in a way that they actually move and react slower then normal people, so giving willow fire immunity would benefit griefers because it would allow them to avoid getting burned by the fires they start. And even that is questionable since it doesn't really matter if they die in the fire or not since the fire has already been started so the damage is done.

But currently Webber is my #1 suspect for griefing, base leeching and destructive inexperience.

[CaptainChaotica]

YES.

Spider nests at the spawn.  SPIDER NESTS AT THE SPAWN.

That is all.

(Yes Wickerbottom can do similar with tentacles, but that tends to happen less often and Webber STARTS with his potentially everybody-who-isn't-a-Webber-killing item...)

...Notorious

[Korlie]

6 minutes ago, CaptainChaotica said:

YES.

Spider nests at the spawn.  SPIDER NESTS AT THE SPAWN.

That is all.

(Yes Wickerbottom can do similar with tentacles, but that tends to happen less often and Webber STARTS with his potentially everybody-who-isn't-a-Webber-killing item...)

...Notorious

Actually in my last server we had one Webber that just base leeched for several weeks and another Webber who set the base on fire.

Before that the base got set on fire once by me and once afterwards by a Russian who was and I quote "SORI"

 

[CaptainChaotica]

Yeah...hate to add to the stereotype, but every time I had an especially noob-to-the-point-of-maybe-griefer? it was, indeed, a Webber.  Dumbarse of Jerkface and Dumbarse was one (I had an...interesting morning in which both people who showed up to my public server were horrible in their own distinct ways, so I gave the incident a name)--stayed in base when fire dogs showed up even though we told him repeatedly not to, why, AND he knew where the damn traps were and saw us running in that direction so he could've followed, walked right up and punched a beefalo, slept my entire goddamn tent AND lean-to away IN ONLY FOUR DAYS, WTF..

And the 7-year-old who picked the beebox flowers repeatedly and wanted the beefalo to stop having red butts so he could go get his stuff back NOOOWWWWWWW!!!!1, was a Webber.

Sigh.

AND they can put a deadly thing that slows you down right when you spawn and have no armour or supplies yet.  : P

That said, I don't really want to condemn ANY character...Webber can be quite useful if played right. It's the PLAYERS that are sometimes the problem. Exhibit A, me--I'm a Willow semi-main (with the original singleplayer version, no less), and I'm a perfectly responsible player.  It really does depend more on the person _behind_ the screen, than the one on it.

(Also if you're a WX?  ASK before you grab the last gear!)

...Notorious

[Quoth143]

On 3/15/2018 at 2:03 AM, CaptainChaotica said:

You know where that comes from?  Her ORIGINAL self.  The singleplayer version...

--Has a lighter that _never runs out_.

--INFINITE fire immunity

--Does not freeze when insane

--Also doesn't have Bernie, though

--And most importantly...STARTS FIRES AUTOMATICALLY WHEN INSANE.

Yep.  That last one is the biggest problem, why they massively changed her for multiplayer and why, even though she was only singleplayer Willow for a short time during the beta, EVERYONE thinks of her as "the base burner".  For a thing that she totally doesn't even do anymore, she still and probably forever has the bad reputation and cries of "BAN THE WILLOW!" will follow the poor girl to her grave.

That said, I played singleplayer first and Willow was more or less my main, so I'm used to it--I know the warning signs and when to take a straw roll and some meatballs and just sleep _away_ from base for a night until I'm uncrazied.  But, I'm in the minority that way when it comes to DST...I totally get why they changed her (although not so keen on _how_) and I get that most Together players, this IS their introduction to this whole universe; they've had no experience at all with the singleplayer version and most _don't even know there are differences_.

Still, I have also used her fire-FIGHTING abilities as well.  I can remember more than once a little fire started in the base and I just ran in there like "I'll handle it!" and everything was fine.  The ironic thing is that original-flavour Willow is the absolute BEST at fighting...her own fires.  : P

(Also bear in mind that singleplayer does not have smouldering.  Fires spread INSTANTLY!  Anybody know where I can find a smouldering mod for regular DS?  I would use the heck out of that.)

...Notorious

Willow mains unite! 

[axxel]

I made a suggestion about removing a firet but she'd get a small sanity and/or health penalty. Since fire is the most destructive element in the game and Willow can be seen as an apprentice character, a perk for removing fire would be nice for beginners. Somebody could make a mod about that.

[csc_unit]

Thats a bit non sensical to battle over which character has the best skills to be a griefer when it is that easy for anybody to grief in this game with a torch or a hammer. 

 

[Korlie]

19 minutes ago, csc_unit said:

Thats a bit non sensical to battle over which character has the best skills to be a griefer when it is that easy for anybody to grief in this game with a torch or a hammer. 

 

That's what makes it's an accessible subject is that any character can grief so it's extracurricular to theorize about which one specifically excels at it.

It's probably Wickerbottom and Webber. Since Webber can make and upgrade spider nests manually, and Wickerbottom can summon tentacles and lightning.

[csc_unit]

57 minutes ago, Korlie said:

It's probably Wickerbottom and Webber. Since Webber can make and upgrade spider nests manually, and Wickerbottom can summon tentacles and lightning.

Lol when the griefer gets bored of griefing for the sake of it, he gets creative and puts effort in it... Thats a bit pathological

[Axelocke]

From the day DST was avaliable via the frontier pack I knew Willow was the first thing on my mind. But now that you mention it, she is good at preventing fires.

This gives me a few ideas that could be used to change Willow from the Firestarter to the Fire Whisperer. 

Perhaps give her bonuses to anything revolving around fire, such as crockpots and stuff. Maybe Willow could have some secret technique revolving around the charcoal underneath the crockpot, letting the foods cook faster.

[cosmicdreams]

On 3/25/2018 at 4:32 AM, csc_unit said:

Lol when the griefer gets bored of griefing for the sake of it, he gets creative and puts effort in it... Thats a bit pathological

presents/bundling wraps full of killer bees/mosquitos