Geysers, Fumaroles, and Volcanoes

[SkunkMaster]

Just now, Xadhoom said:

i feel that some geysers should be 100% to spawn, like water and steam. without an endless supply of that you can't support a colony.

Not true at all.

AFAIK you can make a colony sustain it self on it self. without the use of any geysers.

[jamesbread]

16 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

So what ? 6 geysers ? or ? cause i have more then 6 already. 

Depending on the map seeds, there may be more!

 

Add

The newly added random geyser is placed separately from the existing geyser set piece placement!

[Xadhoom]

1 minute ago, SkunkMaster said:

Not true at all.

AFAIK you can make a colony sustain it self on it self. without the use of any geysers.

but how will you supply any decent size (~20) colony with oxygen? smelt ice? there is no other endless resource that can supply you with oxygen  without a supply of water. you could let plants decompose, but with them needing fertilizer now that's not possible either.

[SkunkMaster]

Just now, Xadhoom said:

but how will you supply any decent size (~20) colony with oxygen? smelt ice? there is no other endless resource that can supply you with oxygen  without a supply of water. you could let plants decompose, but with them needing fertilizer now that's not possible either.

The more the colony grows, the more waste it produces. I played around in the ice map, which has no geysers, and there i had no problems surviving on just the surplus waste water from the colony. 

 

[BT_20]

4 minutes ago, Xadhoom said:

but how will you supply any decent size (~20) colony with oxygen? smelt ice? there is no other endless resource that can supply you with oxygen  without a supply of water. you could let plants decompose, but with them needing fertilizer now that's not possible either.

You can use a sieve or you can still use geysers you just need to store the water it produces when it’s active don’t let them over pressurize!!

[Xadhoom]

2 minutes ago, BT_20 said:

You can use a sieve and you can still use geysers you just need to store the water it produces when it’s active don’t let them over pressurize!!

but if you have no steam or water geyser, you won't be able to support a colony for any length of time. if will eventually run out of oxygen.

3 minutes ago, SkunkMaster said:

The more the colony grows, the more waste it produces. I played around in the ice map, which has no geysers, and there i had no problems surviving on just the surplus waste water from the colony. 

unless you run a lot of generators who produce polluted water there won't be enough PW to clean and run electrolyzers. there is possible to make it survive for a long time, but eventually you will run out of ways to make oxygen.

[SkunkMaster]

Just now, Xadhoom said:

but if you have no steam or water geyser, you won't be able to support a colony for any length of time. if will eventually run out of oxygen.

unless you run a lot of generators who produce polluted water there won't be enough PW to clean and run electrolyzers. there is possible to make it survive for a long time, but eventually you will run out of ways to make oxygen.

Well, i can't recall how i did, so you might be right. Anyhow that is not the case anymore, since you could "breed" morbs, and all other critters also now.

You can make a self-sustaining base without the use of geysers. creative solutions might be needed, like breeding an army of morbs, or letting food spoil on purpose, or.... 

The point is, you should not rely on geysers but more see them as an addition to your colony.

 

 

 

[PhailRaptor]

Like most things Klei does, the concept of the Geyser rework is actually quite good, however, the number balance is ridiculous.

[Lifegrow]

2 hours ago, Giltirn said:

So your solution is to use door exploits?

 

1 hour ago, Xadhoom said:

well, i feel that is more of a hack then an intended feature of the game. and using such stuff don't sit all to well with me. if there was some storage device, or other device that allowed high pressure compression of gasses i would be ok with it.

Erm.... what?

No - not an exploit. I meant a narrow room with a vent at one end and a pump at the other with some doors in between, the same system people have been using for a few months now. It's certainly not an exploit to displace gas with a closing airlock - the trick is to displace it without destroying it - and that takes automation.

Gas enters through vent, is pushed from vent with a series of mechanical airlocks, ends up at pump. More gas enters vent, is pushed from vent, etc etc etc.

 

[Giltirn]

2 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

 

Erm.... what?

No - not an exploit. I meant a narrow room with a vent at one end and a pump at the other with some doors in between, the same system people have been using for a few months now. It's certainly not an exploit to displace gas with a closing airlock - the trick is to displace it without destroying it - and that takes automation.

Gas enters through vent, is pushed from vent with a series of mechanical airlocks, ends up at pump. More gas enters vent, is pushed from vent, etc etc etc.

 

Perhaps "exploit" is the wrong word, but I seriously doubt that the devs intended doors to be used as makeshift compressors, especially given that they are much lower on the tech tree than high-pressure vents and are infinitely more powerful (AFAIK there is no limit to how much gas you can compress with doors). In such circumstances I am always wary to regard such techniques as "solutions" to issues brought up in new updates as we can never be sure it won't be patched out in the future.

[PhailRaptor]

21 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

No - not an exploit. I meant a narrow room with a vent at one end and a pump at the other with some doors in between, the same system people have been using for a few months now. It's certainly not an exploit to displace gas with a closing airlock - the trick is to displace it without destroying it - and that takes automation.

While it is not an exploit until the devs declare it as such, there is a pretty strong argument for it.  You can confine literally hundreds of thousands of kgs of fluids into a 4 tile space with zero fear of it ever breaching.  Something tells me that it was never intended for airlock doors to sustain those levels of pressure.  In the same scenario, you'd shatter Tiles regardless of their material, would you not?

I would, similarly, extend that argument to Airflow Tiles, as well.  They are able to contain limitless quantities of liquid pressure because they are full of air, but can't be full of liquid.

[SkunkMaster]

2 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

While it is not an exploit until the devs declare it as such, there is a pretty strong argument for it.  You can confine literally hundreds of thousands of kgs of fluids into a 4 tile space with zero fear of it ever breaching.  Something tells me that it was never intended for airlock doors to sustain those levels of pressure.  In the same scenario, you'd shatter Tiles regardless of their material, would you not?

 

I would say the only exploit about using doors is the fact that they don't use energy.

I think it would make a interesting change to the dynamic if the doors did use the power they are intended to use, and as such wouldn't work without power, or better said, work as manual airlocks without power. 

[Lutzkhie]

terms used in fumarole naming are very miss directing
cool steam fumarole release clean water, but the "hot" one releases polluted
so why call them "cool" and "hot"? they could just call it steam fumarole, or polluted water geyser,

[itsYiyas]

4 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

Like most things Klei does, the concept of the Geyser rework is actually quite good, however, the number balance is ridiculous.

I think this is the main issue - natural gas would average out at around 160g/s before which is enough for nearly 3 generators (then fertilisers push this further) but in my preview build game I have 20g/s average and 9.3g/s. I think steam geysers also range around 30-50% as much output. Of course, with more geysers in the map there's more ways to get power and water and it's fun to build up around these geysers to exploit them but that means you use far more resources just to get all the geysers.

The game is a lot more difficult with these new geysers in my opinion because of the reduced outputs, randomised usefulness and increased knowledge required to get the most out of each one.

The other biggest issue is that by the time you find the geysers and be able to use them they're typically dormant.

[Nascarlaser1]

16 hours ago, Xadhoom said:

but if you have no steam or water geyser, you won't be able to support a colony for any length of time. if will eventually run out of oxygen.

unless you run a lot of generators who produce polluted water there won't be enough PW to clean and run electrolyzers. there is possible to make it survive for a long time, but eventually you will run out of ways to make oxygen.

I don't know its exact name (haven't lasted long enough to actually use it ). But on YouTube I've seen people use that machine that turns slime into algae to create it as well. It outputs algae and polluted water, which when ran through a sieve, becomes clean water, which can be used for any purpose you need, and the algae is used for either emergency or main air power.

[kuroko0820]

Hi there, this is my gas storage tank, hope it help to solve your problem.

To trick to do this is just put a little bit of water only.

 

[MorsDux]

I can see why they set these high dormancy periods for the geysers.  It makes for a more flexible gameplay - you need to utilize different solutions and ways to get what you need. You will run into temporary shortages and crisis, which improves gameplay experience. Always something to do, always an urgency to get it done.

Although the main problem with this balance method is the flexible amount of dupes. If a player aim to sustain a 60 dupe colony, with current stable version its possible to do so indefinately, and player can get there relatively fast by cycle 180ish. But this "crowded" gameplay style becomes more and more impossible if the amount of resources (on average) get cut down. If the total amount of attainable resources dont change, but become erratic it gives a good gameplay experience with large dupe populations.

Of course having 60 dupes is absolutely not necessary to enjoy this game, you can get by with 10 as most players dont aim for a big challange and even if 60 is possible in stable they still go with 10 and a casual gameplay. The new 60 might be 20 with the update, thats all. Just makes for a smaller base.

[Alfons100]

I finally got the hold of a Natural gas geyser... and, well. The idea is good, that it works in cycles of days off, and other prosperous days where it's erupting, but the balancing of it is incredibly bad, I waited 167 cycles, 167 cycles of preperation for it to erupt, and...

All I get, is 46g/s. 170 seconds on, 30 seconds off, for 86 cycles.

46 is barely even enough for a SINGLE generator? I think they missed a 0 there. 

All they need to do is make these cycles a little smaller, like, I get it, it works in cycles, but the majority of players do not always play for so long, or survive is a better term. And also massively increase the amount of gas you are given when it actually isn't dormant. I understand that they wanted to push us away from the NG meta, but this is just insane. 

Maybe I should look further for a Magmavent to use that one, to make Steam instead. Because if I am right, the stats are randomized for the geysers, so maybe with bad RNG for Natural gas, maybe I am given better water or magma vents. But still, if it is that you can't use Natural gas at all, some people will be at such a large 'progression gap' from coal to damn Steam turbines. While the step between Coal to Natural gas is a bit nicer. 

[Hanro50]

I might just be...a really old player, but I remember a time wen geysers where not in the game.

And truth be told the methods that you used to use to sustain a colony havn't changed much

Water wasn't always infinite, so you had to go and carve out slime for oxygen, granted slimelung didn't exist.

Still I remember that your colony would typically burn thru its food supply before you'd really get into trouble, luckily this was in the day of sleet wheat being really good. 

This is also the second mayer nerf to geysers...they use to be part of the feature system instead of the poi system

Personally I hope they add resource providers aside from geysers like say rivers at some point

[Roboson]

The problem with this change is that it forces a particular playstyle. Most updates add new ways to play the game that are fun and exciting. The unbalanced and random geysers actually reduce player freedom. No longer can the have a geyser base (unless they go looking for the right geysers until they get them), and they have to play a specific way. Which I find rather unfortunate. Not that I don't like getting creative with my gameplay, I would just prefer to be the one to decide that, not a random generator. 

Similarly, as said earlier, it also limits the number of dupes further than what we had. Another way the change limits gameplay and player style options. Maybe its just me, but suddenly I'm so much less inclined to make realistic bases because its just not worth it anymore. That said, right now its just a preview, so hopefully they'll fix it. 

[trukogre]

3 hours ago, Roboson said:

The problem with this change is that it forces a particular playstyle. Most updates add new ways to play the game that are fun and exciting. The unbalanced and random geysers actually reduce player freedom. No longer can the have a geyser base (unless they go looking for the right geysers until they get them), and they have to play a specific way. Which I find rather unfortunate. Not that I don't like getting creative with my gameplay, I would just prefer to be the one to decide that, not a random generator. 

Similarly, as said earlier, it also limits the number of dupes further than what we had. Another way the change limits gameplay and player style options. Maybe its just me, but suddenly I'm so much less inclined to make realistic bases because its just not worth it anymore. That said, right now its just a preview, so hopefully they'll fix it. 

Every requirement in the game  'forces' a particular playstyle, to some extent.  The most 'creative freedom' would be to enable debug mode, kill all your dupes, and just autobuild your base as you saw fit.  That is the purest form of this game, minus requirements.  The reason people don't do this is because 'creative freedom' is , in fact, stifling.  When everything is possible, there's no framework to give value to one choice over another.  Every change from simply building in debug mode, to playing the actual game, is a reduction in player freedom.  You can't simply click and build, you have to wait for the dupes to build it.  That's a limitation.  You have to have the resources. That's a limitation.  You have to have it researched.  TAL.  You have to keep your dupes alive.  TAL.  You have to keep your dupes low stress. TAL.  You have to keep you dupes low on germs.  TAL.  If you let your dupes get to 100% stress, they won't build the thing, they'll do their own thing.  If you let your dupes die, they won't build the thing, they'll be dead. In a real and describable sense, the entire game, is just debug mode + a large set of 'things you can no longer do in one click that you could have done in debug mode, plus things you have to do that you didn't have to do before". Another phrase for this set of things is "restrictions on player freedom".  Why is this fun?  Well, it comes down to the old saying, 'necessity is the mother of invention'.  The kind of creativity people are looking in these games, in general,  is the kind of creativity where they solve problems using resources.  To do this, you need problems, and you need resources/choices. Without limitations, you don't have problems, you only have resources; that's only half the battle.  When Klei reduces the geyser numbers like this, they are reducing the amount of resources, which people misinterpret as limiting creativity.  What they are missing is that the kind of creativity we call 'problem-solving' requires problems as well as resources, this geyser change puts back problems that the old numbers had rendered trivial, and also adds new types of resources.  The balance between problems and resources is not something with a single best answer, the ratio between them is describable by a simple term: difficulty.  There's no single best difficulty, some people prefer more difficulty, some people prefer less.  This change is exactly what the game needed, for me.  It needed more types of resources, but a reduction in the amounts of the old resources, and this update delivered exactly that.  Someone else might disagree with this, even if they agree with my basic theoretical analysis; that means they prefer a different difficulty level.  Difficulty in this sense isn't single dimensional, someone could prefer the game easier in terms of geysers and yet add in difficulty for themselves in some other way, perhaps by playing with more dupes, or some other way, there are multitudes of possibilities.  Hopefully at some point Klei will offer more 'difficulty sliders', at this point you kinda have to do that yourself still.

Example to illustrate above argument:  The food system has been one the of most rich and complex systems in ONI.  Yet Klei has been repeatedly asked to rework it, not to add in complexity, but to fix the scenario where one food type was so good that nothing else was worth making.  This illustrates that we are seeking not merely a rich panoply of options, but that the options must have a problem to make them relevant, and furthermore not only do we need an assortment of options, and a problem to make them relevant, but the options must be balanced against each other so they feel real to us.  We don't want 'pure freedom', we want problems, options, and balance, what one might call "Freedom to pursue perceived opportunities".

 

Edit: I exercised player freedom to add more things to this post, because I thought of them later.  Player freedom is good, therefore editing is good.

[Kabrute]

In all seriousness I am a major proponent of creative freedom with problem solving, example, PO2, you can Ignore it, deoxidize it, or liquify it, all are valid and doable and have their upsides and downsides.  To me freedom seems foisted on us a bit with all the geyser randomization.  Gotta learn to be completely free to profit from their presence.

[Eltoron]

56 minutes ago, trukogre said:

 

I can sign under every word. I think it needs to be a difficulty settings for casual players instead of crippling the game in honor of creative Minecraft funs.

[JonnyMonroe]

3 hours ago, Kabrute said:

PO2, you can Ignore it, deoxidize it, or liquify it, all are valid and doable and have their upsides and downsides.

Or feed it to pufts, which has no downsides and nets you free eggs for dinner.

[Hanro50]

16 minutes ago, JonnyMonroe said:

Or feed it to pufts, which has no downsides and nets you free eggs for dinner.

Then purify the polluted water from your algae distillery and run it to your electrolizers