[Lore question]Maxwell and pigs

[minespatch]

The wiki isn't showing the answer to my question so maybe you guys can help me out:

Did the Pigmen exist before Maxwell?

The blindbox box describes Maxwell as a demon but with the timeskip with the reign of Charlie, does that description fit Max?

[Xedlord]

If you mean before he came to the constant, then yes, I'm 100% sure they did. They came to the constant before Maxwell got on the throne.

[Nino123]

IMAO, many things was here before Max and Charlie, like Pugna, pigs, ancient peaople. Hamlet looks like to present caves with ancient piggy like runes, so yes i think they older.

[Szczuku]

Imo the lore looks something like this:

Ancients were to first to harness the power of Them/nightmare fuel. Something went wrong and they all died releasing the shadow power into the world. Personally I think that Shadow Pieces are the "gods" that Maxwwell refers to when examinig pseudo-science-station (which would also explain why clockworks look like them). When the shadow power was released the "royal room" where the throne was in became that nightmarish realm and throne became shadow throne. The king was "consumed" and turned into shadow autrium. 

Maxwell arrives at the throne. He's most powerfull only within constant that we as a player can play in. That would explain why shipwrecked doesn't have any statues, Maxwell doesn't comment on creatures' origin/behaviour- because he didn't create them. Maxwell arrived at shipwrecked and tried to kill white whale but he wasn't powerfull enough (because he was away form playable constant) and that's why the whale has harpoon in it's head. 

After all the Ancients had to had some sort of world they lived in with natural resources, creatures (merms for example) for that whole thing to happen. Maxwell didn't create everything.

Now back to your question xd

Pigmen's origin is The Hamlet which I imagine is another place that Maxwell doesn't have a full acces into. So yes. They existed before he got there.

[Sinister_Fang]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Maxwell doesn't comment on creatures' origin/behaviour- because he didn't create them.

Spider- "It's mostly digestive system."

Red Hound- "I put fire gems in there as a joke."

Blue Hound- "I had a lot of surplus gems!"  (Even if he didn't make the hounds themselves, he did make the red and blue ones at least)

Tallbird- "These were a failed experiment."

Tentacle Spots- "This is how they reproduce."

 

He seems to know an awfully lot about quite a few creatures. The tallbird and red/blue hounds even directly state he created them himself. Although there are quite a few things he's unfamiliar with, especially in the caves. I believe he made most of the creatures we see on the surface, but there's still a few he didn't create himself.

[Xedlord]

6 minutes ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Spider- "It's mostly digestive system."

Red Hound- "I put fire gems in there as a joke."

Blue Hound- "I had a lot of surplus gems!"  (Even if he didn't make the hounds themselves, he did make the red and blue ones at least)

Tallbird- "These were a failed experiment."

Tentacle Spots- "This is how they reproduce."

 

He seems to know an awfully lot about quite a few creatures. The tallbird and red/blue hounds even directly state he created them himself. Although there are quite a few things he's unfamiliar with, especially in the caves. I believe he made most of the creatures we see on the surface, but there's still a few he didn't create himself.

Well we know from the vignette that he didn't make merms, so that's something.

[Korlie]

In the Pig King vignette description it mentions how the Pig King and his followers came to the Constant for X reason.

[Xedlord]

8 minutes ago, Korlie said:

In the Pig King vignette description it mentions how the Pig King and his followers came to the Constant for X reason.

That's what I was talking about in my first post.

[Sinister_Fang]

56 minutes ago, Xedlord said:

Well we know from the vignette that he didn't make merms, so that's something.

Merm- "They were here when I got here."

Maybe one day we'll have a DLC or event that explains more about these guys.

[Auth]

Something to think about is that Maxwell has the ability to make them show up with their houses and all.

Adventure Mode, yo.

Maxwell says he can give you pigs, and the first island is in fact full of them.

This may have been one of those amazing and seldom heard "Rewrites" or "Add it now, explain it later" honestly.

[minespatch]

Still unsure why the blindbox description has MAxwell referred to as a demon even when it's shown he was/is human.

[Xedlord]

8 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Still unsure why the blindbox description has MAxwell referred to as a demon even when it's shown he was/is human.

Yeah that is really weird, you'll probably have to ask a dev.

[Zhuzha]

1 hour ago, minespatch said:

Still unsure why the blindbox description has MAxwell referred to as a demon even when it's shown he was/is human.

Maybe prolonged exposure to Codex Umbra or the Throne (or both) has changed him, and he's no longer entirely human and can't be called one?

[Sicko Hog]

It's just a weird decision from before they were getting serious with the lore, like how Maxwell phracking dies in the adventure mode ending.

[Sinister_Fang]

1 hour ago, JellyUltra said:

It's just a weird decision from before they were getting serious with the lore, like how Maxwell phracking dies in the adventure mode ending.

Seeing as how They watch everyone for entertainment, and Their magic is capable of resurrection (life giving amulet), I don't think even death would let you escape from Them. So it's possible this still fits in with the lore.

3 hours ago, minespatch said:

Still unsure why the blindbox description has MAxwell referred to as a demon even when it's shown he was/is human.

Maybe it's because "demon" sounds better then "feeble old man sitting on a magical throne".

[Szczuku]

23 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

Spider- "It's mostly digestive system."

Red Hound- "I put fire gems in there as a joke."

Blue Hound- "I had a lot of surplus gems!"  (Even if he didn't make the hounds themselves, he did make the red and blue ones at least)

Tallbird- "These were a failed experiment."

Tentacle Spots- "This is how they reproduce."

 

He seems to know an awfully lot about quite a few creatures. The tallbird and red/blue hounds even directly state he created them himself. Although there are quite a few things he's unfamiliar with, especially in the caves. I believe he made most of the creatures we see on the surface, but there's still a few he didn't create himself.

You didn't understand me. I've meant shipwrecked creatures.

Now the only creatures that we FOR SURE know Maxwell has created are Tallbirds, Red/Blue Hounds and Butterflies. Other creatures he could've simply experimented on. I mean what's the problem in kidnaping a spider and tearing it open for Maxwell, he was almost a god right?

20 hours ago, Auth said:

Something to think about is that Maxwell has the ability to make them show up with their houses and all.

Adventure Mode, yo.

Maxwell says he can give you pigs, and the first island is in fact full of them.

This may have been one of those amazing and seldom heard "Rewrites" or "Add it now, explain it later" honestly.

We as a player are able to build pig/bunnyman houses so... I don't think it was that hard for him.

[Sinister_Fang]

4 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I've meant shipwrecked creatures.

SW seems to be a completely different beast altogether. Honestly, I'm not even sure if it can be considered canon. It doesn't seem to fit in with any of the lore DST introduced.

[Szczuku]

How I see the Constant: 

Dst map- something like Na/Europe

Shipwrecked- Archipelago

We know that Goose/Goose comes from "the north" so there also might be another place that we don't know. Maybe a ds. version of Canada?

In RoG bosses are arriving which means that they have to come from somwhere. Is Deerclops from Constant's version of Arctics?

Afterall in Shipwrecked we spawns next to debrits which means that characters atempted to escape from ds map.

In my opinion Shipwrecked is pretty canon

[Sinister_Fang]

If SW happened before DST, then why isn't Warly, Woodlegs, Wilbur and Walani with everyone else in DST (Talking about lore here, not the fact that they're stuck in a DLC exclusive to DS)?

There's also no Maxwell's door in SW (as far as I know) and DST seems to take place directly after the events of adventure mode. So SW couldn't have taken place before DST, and it still doesn't fit after the events of DST.

[Sicko Hog]

5 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

If SW happened before DST, then why isn't Warly, Woodlegs, Wilbur and Walani with everyone else in DST?

Because a forest island with extremely cold winters isn't their kind of place. They've got each other and a big tropical paradise, that's all they need.

It's probably safe to say that the other survivors know about them, though. The launch trailer shows that Wilson and Willow have both been to the SW world, so they at least know about Woodlegs and Wilbur (since they're the two SW characters that can show up even when you're not playing as them).

Not sure where it would fall in the timeline... It has to be before adventure mode, since Maxwell's still on the throne, but the dimension hopping shenanigans didn't start until after the atrium gate was open. Maybe Hamlet will clear things up a bit, since it's another singleplayer expansion? I don't know. I'm not gonna just drop SW and say it's non-canon though since I hate retcons with a passion.

[Sinister_Fang]

53 minutes ago, JellyUltra said:

They've got each other and a big tropical paradise, that's all they need.

Sooo... they're together. In SW. SW for DST confirmed.

53 minutes ago, JellyUltra said:

Maybe Hamlet will clear things up a bit, since it's another singleplayer expansion?

I hope so. I'm also curious as to where Hamlet fits into all of this. They kinda dug themselves into a bit of a hole by starting DST immediately after the events of adventure mode. I'm interested in seeing how they get out of it.

[Nino123]

I think SW characters came on archipelago by boat (wood debrits) maybe through a sort of Bermuda'sTriangle (not sure of the english name). One is a surfer, one a pirate,,,,,,, the last a sailor (Wilbur looks belonging to the archipelago since he's the king of monkeys) so it fit.

As DST charatcters are traveling in differents worlds, SW can be one of these (and maybe Hamlet too).

 

I'm just wondering why Charlie is present in SW and why trying to kill characters.

[Szczuku]

17 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

There's also no Maxwell's door in SW (as far as I know) 

There's (I think) an actual lore-related reason. Maxwell created only 1 Maxwell's Door.

Unfortunatelly Ds/t lore is affected by real-life gameplay purposes. "Why aren't Shipwrecked characters in Dst?" Because they're a part of single player expansion. 

But there are also many other questions; Why have the original characters never met each other before? After all they all live on the same island. When does Hamlet take place? Why Charlie was able to free someone from the nightmare throne and if she could always do that why didn't she did this to Maxwell?

Many Lore-holes

Untill developers themselves answer these question, we can only make theories.

[Sinister_Fang]

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Why have the original characters never met each other before? After all they all live on the same island.

I always thought each character had their own slice of hell the Constant. In the cyclum comic, we see Maxwell and Wilson collaborating on constructing a portal that brought everyone together. So everyone wasn't on the same exact island.

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

When does Hamlet take place?

It's too soon to answer this. We know nothing lore related about Hamlet other then the strong possibility that it takes place in a different world.

5 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Why Charlie was able to free someone from the nightmare throne and if she could always do that why didn't she did this to Maxwell?

Maybe because she couldn't get to the throne herself? She seemed to show up shortly after Wilson sat on the throne, so perhaps she followed him. I don't know, but it's a plausible theory at least.

There's not really anything in SW that provides clues in the lore in general, much less it's placement in the timeline. And that's kinda why I don't consider it canon. Lore wise, it's got next to nothing going on for it.

[Nino123]

11 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

I always thought each character had their own slice of hell the Constant. In the cyclum comic, we see Maxwell and Wilson collaborating on constructing a portal that brought everyone together. So everyone wasn't on the same exact island.

 

They gathered with the begining of DST. Now they're on the same island.

 

I considere SW as a spin-off, other story in an other world, maybe like hamlet. And maybe Klei will imagine a cool story to inclued SW in the time line and the lore.