on rooms

[Le0n1des]

6 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

This is a thread on the rooms mechanic.... it's literally called "on rooms"...

My point may have been conveyed poorly. I meant that designating a room via the presence of a door seems fine. What I'd like to see in the regard of room mechanics is more variety and maybe stacking of bonuses for a multi purpose room.

[Lifegrow]

10 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

Believe it or not Lifegrow, I have had respect for your experience, knowledge and perspective of the game. We disagree on a number of issues and that's fine, but your attitude you demonstrate in the following quote to be a little unbecoming.

Forum posting scores? Really?

Why I 'defend' it is because I don't find your argument against particularly compelling, as I've said. I don't find the design constraint particularly restrictive. I wasn't trying to give you room options you've already decided you didn't want to pursue. But rather, perhaps poorly, attempting to demonstrate real life counter-part examples of how we have culture used these design options to satisfying our predilections. I see an open door much like an empty archway dividing rooms in a house or apartment. For some reason, while completely unnecessarily, we've implemented room divisions in real life.

Your argument comes across to me like, "Why do dupes have food quality bonuses? I want decadent food bonus for eating mush bars." You are basically complaining about how dupes are responding to your design choices. And I will say again, you're not prevented from building your layout as you like. But to also have the expectation that the dupes must conform their preferences to your whims is a bit of a stretch for a game that at its core is intended to pose some kind of consequence to our choices.

We disagree.  I don't know why you seem to be taking it personally.

Sorry, I think my poor attempt at a humor was taken to heart, and for that I apologise. That said you do seem to have missed my point.

I'm not asking to be rewarded for MY specific choices, i'm questioning whether being rewarded for having your rooms/base design conform to a specific size limitation is actually doing anything for creative base design... All it's doing as far as I can see is encouraging people to build small.

As so frequently happens on these forums, real world examples are brought into discussion - you comparing the feng shui of a real world living room to that of a dupes quarters is neither here nor there surely? 

3 minutes ago, Le0n1des said:

My point may have been conveyed poorly. I meant that designating a room via the presence of a door seems fine. What I'd like to see in the regard of room mechanics is more variety and maybe stacking of bonuses for a multi purpose room.

This was what I was alluding to earlier to be fair @Le0n1des

 

1 hour ago, Lifegrow said:

Honestly, my concern is more the size constraints and building restrictions. If I want to make a luxury condo for my dupes containing bedroom, mess table, en suite shower and underfloor heating - I should be able to do just that, AND reap the benefits of all of the room bonuses for doing so, without the need to just place down random useless doors. If you build a barracks currently and then place a mess table down - you no longer have a bedroom OR a mess hall. 

Would be nice to be able to say: "This space is both my mess area and sleeping quarters, so relive stress when sleeping/eating" - but contained in one room. 

 

[Whispershade]

11 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

or taking on the K.F.S (Klei Fanboy Society) single handedly  

Given the context of this thread, I am forced to conclude this was another jab at me. I don't think I would ever consider myself a fanboy of anything. And I've lost a lot of respect for you that you would resort to such childishness.

When I first started getting into the game I found your videos illuminating and helpful. I looked up to your knowledge and experience. But while I wouldn't use a word so strong as hero. The phrase, "You should never meet your heroes." has now come to mind.

[Lifegrow]

Just now, Whispershade said:

Given the context of this thread, I am forced to conclude this was another jab at me. I don't think I would ever consider myself a fanboy of anything. And I've lost a lot of respect for you that you would resort to such childishness.

When I first started getting into the game I found your videos illuminating and helpful. I looked up to your knowledge and experience. But while I wouldn't use a word so strong as hero. The phrase, "You should never meet your heroes." has now come to mind.

No no, this was directed at the people who can't help but take to the streets with pitchforks and lanterns held high if ever anything is said against the development of the game or Klei in general, no matter how constructive. Also @Whispershade it has to be said - lighten up son.

If you're looking for a hero or inspiration, forums might not be your friend - this is a place for debate, opinions and sharing - all of which can often leave a sour taste in the mouth.

[brummbar7]

I kind of like the room mechanics so far.  I agree with Risu's comment earlier that not everyone wants to have to manually paint rooms all over.  I don't particularly.  The current mechanic definitely leads to min-maxing though.   The results when the 64-block limit on barracks met my favorite platter width:
 

Spoiler

 

Nails: So Stinky...why do I have two doors hanging from the ceiling above my bed?

Stinky: Oh, those are a code requirement.

Nails: But...but they're doors.  On the ceiling.  Why do I...

Stinky: Its.  A. Code.  Requirement. *hard stare*

 

My biggest complaint is that the mechanic is not very obvious.  I spent a long time trying to figure out how to make rooms, before I finally gathered from the forums that they are automatically created.  It just so happened that my deordorizers and algae deoxidizers along with lack of doors had prevented any from forming.  I admit that I don't really pay attention to tooltips anymore.  But if there is not one about rooms, there probably should be.  Maybe a bit of text at the top of the room overlay box that explains that 'rooms are automatically created, mouse over the rooms below to find out the requirements'.

I haven't made a quarantine room yet (or anything but a barracks) but so far the bonuses don't seem obvious to me, or particularly awesome.  I wish they would be spelled out more clearly.

The max limits are, as shown in spoiler above, not quite up to what I'd like.  But arguing for larger allowances for my personal preferences is a slippery and arbitrary slope so I'm not going to grouse about it.

As for the macro discussion, I don't see any need at all to respect any kind of water related 'doors' as far as rooms go.  Those are solutions that take advantage of weak spots in game mechanics and balance.  So imho people who use that stuff can just suck it up.  The solution to wanting a combo room would be for Klei to make such, but make it individual dupe's room, so you just put a max of 1 bed, 1 mess table, etc. maybe a 'suite' room if you will.   I imagine they'll create more room types as dupe expectation mechanics evolve and refine.  I would assume that in the future, dupes will - after attaining a certain level - no longer be satisfied with 'barracks' or 'mess halls', maybe even not 'latrines', and will in fact *want* individual quarters.  I don't really see much other reason to create these room mechanics, other than to have more and better rooms later for increased dupe expectations.  The bonuses don't seem compelling or interesting enough on their own.

 

 

[Lifegrow]

2 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

I imagine they'll create more room types as dupe expectation mechanics evolve and refine.  I would assume that in the future, dupes will - after attaining a certain level - no longer be satisfied with 'barracks' or 'mess halls', maybe even not 'latrines', and will in fact *want* individual quarters.  I don't really see much other reason to create these room mechanics, other than to have more and better rooms later for increased dupe expectations.  The bonuses don't seem compelling or interesting enough on their own.

This seems the obvious direction they're going with, and it's why now more than ever i'd like to see it implemented correctly. I love the idea of getting additional bonuses, who wouldn't? Yet having them be given just because your room is the right size, has a door, and "contains the following items"... well, that seems a little bland to me.

Christ, we have a nearly non-existent stat in decor, why can't that be put to better use ?

[Saturnus]

Ok, maybe I should elaborate on my point. I question the idea of having a bonus that rewards one specific type of base design. What is the purpose of this, however small bonus the might be, deliberate nudge to the players to design this or that way, if not in a broader sense rail-roading players towards a specific type of game play. Introducing this bonus and mechanics cannot to me be seen as anything but a discouragement toward open world game play style. It's fine that some players like to be taken by the hand and shown how an effective base is set up but that's what tutorials are for, not in-game bonuses or restrictions that affect all players, no matter how they play. If we do not voice our reservations towards this development now, I fear that the devs will just get the idea that players generally like the idea. And we are some, many I hope, that feel this way.

[Risu]

Just to be clear, the rooms are not a requirement. You're allowed to continue using poorly designed bases that your dupes hate.
 

[Whispershade]

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

No no, this was directed at the people who can't help but take to the streets with pitchforks and lanterns held high if ever anything is said against the development of the game or Klei in general, no matter how constructive. Also @Whispershade it has to be said - lighten up son.

If you're looking for a hero or inspiration, forums might not be your friend - this is a place for debate, opinions and sharing - all of which can often leave a sour taste in the mouth.

There was a reason I prefaced the comment about how hero was a bit strong a description. But the feeling that someone's actions betrays your expectation in an undesirable way. I'm not looking for heroes, but I did look up to your experience. I find the ability to come up with creative and clever solutions and admirable trait.

But seeing as how I seem to be the primary antagonist in this particular thread regarding your opinion on how rooms are constructed and am 'defending' Klei's take on it. It is difficult to conclude that your exasperation was not directed at me. I am not offended, but I do feel compelled to call out the jabs as I see them.

Especially considering how you've taken exception to my tone in the past. And for which I've apologized if it seemed hostile to you, as I've never intended it that way towards you.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Lifegrow said:

I'm not asking to be rewarded for MY specific choices, i'm questioning whether being rewarded for having your rooms/base design conform to a specific size limitation is actually doing anything for creative base design... All it's doing as far as I can see is encouraging people to build small.

As so frequently happens on these forums, real world examples are brought into discussion - you comparing the feng shui of a real world living room to that of a dupes quarters is neither here nor there surely? 

Addressing this. There are already design constraints that favor certain configurations. I don't see it as particularly burdensome that the dupes might have expectation constraints on rooms. Regarding real world examples, they're always going to be a touchstone of experience. And it is clear that those conventions have held over some of the room layouts as they've been revealed. The most compelling argument I see in your posts is that you want to be able to make combo rooms. And I certainly could see additional room configurations being added to address that. But I don't see putting some walls and doorways up as particularly constraining to design in a negative fashion.

P.S. I'm as light as a feather on the moon.

[Saturnus]

1 minute ago, Risu said:

Just to be clear, the rooms are not a requirement. You're allowed to continue using poorly designed bases that your dupes hate.
 

This I hope is meant sarcastically. Otherwise you really don't get the point... at all.

It is my estimate that many got to know this game from watching streamers they knew play it. That is really the principal advertisement platform for this game. By introducing a system that rewards people for making bland uninteresting base designs that are always set up in almost the same way you're really discouraging new players from playing because if all streamers play the same way then that means the game has a "win condition" and not very interesting to play.

[brummbar7]

1 minute ago, Lifegrow said:

I love the idea of getting additional bonuses, who wouldn't? Yet having them be given just because your room is the right size, has a door, and "contains the following items"... well, that seems a little bland to me.

Well, I would imagine that there may also be penalties involved, if you're not meeting the high level dupes' expectations.  A little carrot, a little stick.  I mean, I agree the size limit is not quite as large as I'd like.  But where do you stop with that?  You could probably literally find people who want one giant barracks room for all 40 of their dupes, with 320 allowed tiles.  I mean at some point there's probably a code impact.  Regarding the rest, I agree there's other ways they could have done it.  Machinery like deoxidizers could have made noise, discouraging their placement near bedrooms or dining halls.  My understanding is there actually is or was plans for that.  But again, maybe there was an overhead to that, or it was found annoying visually, and it was cheaper to just make these room zones.  If I had to make a choice between less late game lag, or not having to add superfluous doors in your barracks stuff sometimes, I know what I'd pick.  I hope that when they revise the decor system, which they've said they were going to do, that this will give us other things to place in rooms. 

8 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

If we do not voice our reservations towards this development now, I fear that the devs will just get the idea that players generally like the idea. And we are some, many I hope, that feel this way.

Ya that's fair.  At the same time I feel like they'd be getting a biased thread if those of us who are ok with things the way they are didn't speak up.  The mechanic as it stands is still quite a bit better than the old radius thing with medcots.  I get the idea of arguing on principle.  But I'd be really interested to see some actual layouts that would be seriously impacted by this room mechanic , if anyone has examples (excluding the bed-dining thing, which I'm fairly confident will be addressed down the road).  I think the biggest impact for me was not being able to place my deoxidizer in the middle of the barracks, but I can live with that.

[chemie]

So it does seems silly to me now that for a large dorm room, you just leave a single square in the middle for a door to break one large room into 2 smaller ones (with doors on either end).  And then open all the doors permanently like they aren't there. 

[Whispershade]

17 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I question the idea of having a bonus that rewards one specific type of base design. What is the purpose of this, however small bonus the might be, deliberate nudge to the players to design this or that way, if not in a broader sense rail-roading players towards a specific type of game play. Introducing this bonus and mechanics cannot to me be seen as anything but a discouragement toward open world game play style.

I touched on this before, but I want to elaborate more.

There are already bonuses and design constraints that favor particular configurations. That's actually a core aspect of the game as I see it. They may not be as tangible as a room mechanic that offers specific bonuses, but they exist to influence a same-ness to base design in a similar way. We could always ignore those design advantages (or be ignorant of them) and not obtain the bonuses to workflow. But they still existed. Now, arguably, there is at least a trade-off. And there exists designs to pursue to maintain efficient flow with new considerations.

 

30 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

I haven't made a quarantine room yet (or anything but a barracks) but so far the bonuses don't seem obvious to me, or particularly awesome.  I wish they would be spelled out more clearly.

The bonuses for messhall and barracks are pretty feeble. But the bonus for latrine is persistent and pretty compelling.  Medbay is its own thing. A little off tangent but the effectiveness of bonuses really reinforce that I think lousy meal penalty should really persist after eating and that lighting and darkness should play a more direct role in stress.

[chemie]

+1 for food quality lasting until next meal.  Silly that you get a -10% debuff while sitting in a room with +20% buff (portraits, snazzy suit etc).  It has zero effect.

But I don't want to hijack my own thread so....

[Risu]

"Gee, this bedroom sure is lovely."

No problems here.
 

[Ciderblock]

1 hour ago, brummbar7 said:

 

  Hide contents

 

Nails: So Stinky...why do I have two doors hanging from the ceiling above my bed?

Stinky: Oh, those are a code requirement.

Nails: But...but they're doors.  On the ceiling.  Why do I...

Stinky: Its.  A. Code.  Requirement. *hard stare*

 

 

This example's a little artificial, because 64/4=16, so a 16-wide room works without random doors/walls to fill in excess space. I personally like 12-wide spaces anyway (symmetry, given the constraint of the Printing Pod).

Incidentally, on the subject of homogeneity in building, it has long bothered me that building anything other than 4-high is almost universally a mistake. The only exceptions I can think of are storage rooms and "utility" rooms (e.g. boilers, oxygen condensers, power plants, etc.) I remember when I picked the game back up at the OU launch, I started building 3-high without thinking about it. When I realized my mistake (as I started trying to place paintings), I just started over.

[Lifegrow]

2 minutes ago, Risu said:

"Gee, this bedroom sure is lovely."

No problems here.
 

"It's strange, it didn't look this big from the outside..."

 

 

[The Plum Gate]

More room types would be nice, the whole barracks bonus is rather useless only effecting stamina regain while sleeping?.. Not a problem unless everyone is sick or going to bed late.

A 'quarters' room would be nice, sort of like an apartment - may be interesting to get early bird effects from a more posh setup.

I was setting mess tables up next to beds, next to flower pots..repeat..etc.. can't do this anymore and get the mess bonus and barracks. 

[brummbar7]

22 minutes ago, Ciderblock said:

This example's a little artificial, because 64/4=16, so a 16-wide room works without random doors/walls to fill in excess space.

Well, right, that's the point though.  This floor width derives from the way I normally set up other things in the 'column'.  In this particular case I set everything up before I realized how rooms worked, and there's no way I'm going back and relocating ladders and everything just to make my floors 2 tiles narrower.    It derives from the following restroom/medbay layout:

Also it works out as about 1/3 the total base core.  Obviously I have to drop the deoxidizer and deodorizer now, plus there's an extra space, no big deal, but I gain a door and two mess tables.  So even under new criteria it remains this width.  I like this design because the sanitizers do double duty.  I like it enough I'll probably continue to use it and cheese the barracks.  I don't mind it, there's more than enough decor to go around in the barracks - screen doors have no decor penalty.  I can live with it, it's just interesting that the room mechanic causes that kind of thing. 

58 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

But the bonus for latrine is persistent and pretty compelling.

What is it?  This is my issue - the room overlay just says latrines 'relieve a small amount of stress', same as mess hall.  So what?  I've already got stress well in hand, as I would guess everyone in this topic does.  Maybe if/when decor gets nerfed this will be more significant.  But right now the room layout info box gives me very generic, very uninteresting clues as to what the bonus is.  I honestly have not bothered to check the dupes for flags related to it, because I just assumed it did what it said, and that did not interest me.   I wish they'd be more clear and spell it out more.  In a game where I can know the heat capacity and conductivity of everything, and read an encyclopedia about germs, why can't I get more details about these room bonuses?

In general, I get that some people maybe liked putting mess tables by their cots.   But these room descriptors may actually be specific, and not just words they picked.  In the real world, a barracks does not have dining tables in it.  That's not what a "barracks" is in the real world.  That is very specific, and normally military associated.  When you are in a barracks situation, you typically dine in a "mess hall", which is a separate place, only for dining, and with everyone else.  These are very specific real world analogues that have these specific limitations in the real world.  Or at least, they did 'back in the day' - I don't know about today.   But I would assume, based on these specific names, that later the dupes will want more personalized living quarters.  This seems like a logical assumption, except that barracks and mess hall each only require a minimum of 1 bed or table.  Which is decidedly un-barracks/mess-like.  I probably would have required 2 or 3 minimum.  So idk, I could be wrong about the intentions.  But I think that the rooms we have now are a just a very small beginning to a much more interesting variety to come.

[Whispershade]

4 minutes ago, brummbar7 said:

What is it?  This is my issue - the room overlay just says latrines 'relieve a small amount of stress', same as mess hall.  So what?  I've already got stress well in hand, as I would guess everyone in this topic does

The latrine bonus is a persistent -5% stress for a period of 1 cycle. Where as the mess hall and barracks only seem to persist in the room. And I don't really understand the benefit of improved stamina recovery while sleeping.

And yes, I don't generally have a problem with extreme stress. But it mitigates the need for snazzy suits or a level of decor spam.

[chemie]

19 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

The latrine bonus is a persistent -5% stress for a period of 1 cycle. Where as the mess hall and barracks only seem to persist in the room. And I don't really understand the benefit of improved stamina recovery while sleeping.

And yes, I don't generally have a problem with extreme stress. But it mitigates the need for snazzy suits or a level of decor spam.

but I assume latrine bonus lasting all day is a mistake?

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

but I assume latrine bonus lasting all day is a mistake?

I'm not sure. When I look at the mess hall flag it gives a duration of one cycle as well, but it faded when leaving the room. So I don't know if the mess hall is bug or the latrine.  If the latrine bonus is supposed to fade when leaving the room, the bonus would be so laughably tiny that it might as well not exist, though.

[The Plum Gate]

57 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

I'm not sure. When I look at the mess hall flag it gives a duration of one cycle as well, but it faded when leaving the room. So I don't know if the mess hall is bug or the latrine.  If the latrine bonus is supposed to fade when leaving the room, the bonus would be so laughably tiny that it might as well not exist, though.

When last I checked, the nice bathroom buff was +5% stress (relief)  rate ( so decreasing stress) and lasted for 0.5 cycles?

It sticks around for a while, seems like all my dupes have it, but they all use the same bathroom. 

[goboking]

I personally love the concept and hope to see it expanded upon.  I already built my bases so that they resemble actual places people would live, so I'm being rewarded for playing the way I've always played.  The only thing I'll say to those who dislike the mechanic, since it's a carrot and not a stick you're free to ignore it.  It's a small reward for designing your base a certain way, so you lose nothing if you continue to do things the way you've always done them.

[Whispershade]

1 hour ago, The Plum Gate said:

lasted for 0.5 cycles?

The duration starts at 1.0 cycles when they begin using the bathroom and ticks down over time.