Problematic winter and summer in DST

[CaptainChaotica]

...there IS a legit discussion to be had re:  "noob vs. veteran", first of all.  It's completely a reasonable topic, and does indeed exist.  The game is _completely freaking different_ for those who know what to expect vs. those who don't. 

And I'm not at all suggesting the whole game should be made easy-mode.  There's a middle ground between super-easy and "if you don't learn instantly, you die".  The game has, and always will be, uncompromising--how many players have died their _very first night_ because they didn't know how big a deal darkness was?  Probably quite a few of us here fall into that category, I'd imagine--without outside information. 

The best compromise was said way earlier in this thread:  A TUTORIAL, or at least some kind of warning board, _telling_ newbies what to expect if they join in summer or winter.  If they still choose to try it anyway, okay--at that point, it's completely on them.

Also KNOWING how to make something and actually being able to are two different things.  You can't live through a whole season just running around.  You have to stop for things like night and resource-gathering, for one.  Even if you do find rocks right away and you, the player, know that nitre is needed for an endothermic fire, you also have to find gold and other materials for a science machine before your _character_ will know how to make it!  And gold is often near tallbirds, which newbies _also_ wouldn't know to treat with caution... 

I'm sure your answer, t0panka, will be along the lines of "NO YOU'RE WRONG EVERYTHING IS EASY PEOPLE WHO SAY IT'S HARD ARE JUST WHINERS AND HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN" but I don't care.  I'm done with this topic, ever since that mean, nasty tone came in.  Yelling and rudeness are not necessary when simply discussing game mechanics.

Noobs are people too.

We ALL were noobs at some point.

Remember that, and try to have a little empathy.

...Notorious

[t0panka]

@CaptainChaotica first of all i wasnt rude. Half of the forum people are not from english speaking countries so they speak/write simple english which can probably sounds like rude. English is my third language so sorry if i was straight forward. Also this is one from many many threads about the same thing: "new people have hard time doing something = change game!" and now i see that developers are again and again going for "yeah lets change this game for new players" like it was with ghosts which they basically completely destroyed and now it serves only "new players wont die-die" mechanic

I am not saying that new players having hard time with some game mechanics is not a problem but this is not what is this thread about so i wasnt mentioning this. This thread is about changing game mechanics because new players will join in hardest season and die quickly.

YES we were all new players and guess what? At least i died COUNTLESS times ... seriously countless times. I probably died to everything in this game. THIS is exactly why this game is so awesome! You die and if you wont learn from your mistake you die again. I also learned about some features of game after looooong time and still after so many hours in DS and DST i probably dont know 100%

Lets make 1 thing clear here. This game will NEVER be for "everyone". This game is about dying a lot and learning from it and then dying to another thing so if someone doesnt like this game mechanics he can go play another game and not change this game to something that it is not right? STILL you cant even die in DST = you become ghost and other people can revive you. Why are all these things new palyers want to change OK in DS but so bad in DST? You just need one more player and this game is 100% more easier than DS which in my opinion already is easier than DS. Yeah only crazy people set their world to "start in summer" in DS and you can join summer servers so easily - probably problem is that new players dont check season and dont know what summer is. SO they die instantly, maybe try to join again and die again and then you should have your inner voice telling you dont join in summer until you know what to do right?

There are world setting to get rid of these seasons, filters on servers, countless people that are happy to tell you how things work or help you survive. Also go try to join CS:GO game with Global Elite players, start playing Doom on "hell" difficulty, start Invisible Inc. run with highest alarm level or play Shank on hardest difficulty. Guess what happens - you die instantly and you wont go on game forums to create thread about "this is too hard change it plz"

I see on forums many of these threads and it is ok if people write something like "here is link to summer/winter guide go read it" or "set your world to long autumn and try to prepare for winter" but developers starting to change game because of these new players. Ghosts are destroyed, now summer/winter will be changed (destroyed probably), woodie will be changed from what i have seen on that woodie thread, shadow puppets will drop fuel after they die? What? Where is this game heading? Do you really want this?

Lets say that everything will be changed which is probably cool for new NEW players and bad for everyone else. How long will take for new players to learn those few essential things you need to live through seasons so these problems they have now will become absolete? Those who like this game and want to play it will learn those things fast. After that they will be where we are now BUT guess what the game difficulty will be destroyed for everyone else than new players and those people that wanted these changes will see that game is too easy now

[Arlesienne]

One thing which is already implemented but too few people use it is the server description. It is my go-to way to warn players, including languages supported by the host, learning curve and how to ask for help. I believe the more experienced have a bit of a duty for the lack of a better word regarding teaching others. As both @CaptainChaotica and @T0panka pointed out, we have all started from this point. People who value their time, want to learn and are genuinely interested in the game will put the two together and pick a server which offers "tutoring". And here the human factor takes care of the whole thing better than any code can. I get a lot of newbies who have the guts to ask for help. It is not difficult. It can do without new additions provided the players play the way the game was apparently designed to be played - together.

[Wyeth]

33 minutes ago, t0panka said:

This thread is about changing game mechanics because new players will join in hardest season and die quickly.

Hey OP here: This thread is actually just as much about making seasons have more influence on experienced players (higher difficulty ceiling), as it is about allowing easier introduction for a new player, aswell as any player joining mid-season on any server (regardless of personal skill level) - but actually mostly focused on endless and wilderness mode, where a safety net of a developed starting base usually doesn't exist.

This is merely a discussion of possible ideas how this could be achieved.

I personally never had any problems surviving in any season in DST, so long as I "grew into" the season from the previous, easier season (spring -> summer, or autumn -> winter) since I have allready experienced most things in DS and thus knew how to handle winter/summer perfectly well.

I am saying this not to brag about my skill, because it really doesn't take much to do this, as you said yourself, which is exactly where my issue is based. It is NOT hard to survive summer and winter as long as you didn't start in them. If you did start in them and are an experienced player you can still survive and get to a stable point where you can then build your base and keep surviving, albeit this is partly based on luck, the current state of the world and what is available to you in the first 5-10 minutes of starting (since that is how long you can live without finding the materials to stay alive).

I think while this is completely fine for a single player experience where you usually always "grew into" the season and if not still got items via telepotato on you it is a bad fit for a game based around multiplayer. Your logic of "learn or die" can be maintained without turning inexperienced players off the game immediately, simply by giving them more time to react and evaluate what they did wrong.

At least equally concerning is the lack of difficulty for a player who knows what they are doing and allready started in the "optimal" situation (say autumn, preparing for winter). So please don't act as if this is only about making the game easier, it is equal parts about making it easier and equal parts about making it harder - if you are going to get into a discussion about SUGGESTED improvements you should be aware of what is being suggested and discussed before simply throwing in opinions left and right.

 

[DVGMedia]

wanna join a server in winter start as woodie has some insulation and can get all the resources just need to be lucky on grass

 

wanna join in summer? join as willow and go nearly insane that will keep you cool to survive

there we go starting in difficult seasons = problems solved

 

[hyiltiz]

On 5/31/2016 at 5:09 AM, Wyeth said:

Hello and good day, player from the very first day here (remember science points? What "good" times we had),

 

I don't usually post a lot, but I recently was a bit let down with the game. Namely with the seasons (especially winter and summer) in DST specifically.

I honestly wouldn't have figured that the game would be put out of early access with these two seasons working the way they do. Mainly because they just empty out servers in a second and make late joining during these seasons (that account for a bit less than 1/2 of the game!) impossible or at the very least highly difficult. You can say that if there is a base in survival or endless near the portal this problem gets countered, but keep in mind this isn't always the case and in wilderness mode this isn't even an option at all.

I can't help but feel that servers just getting deserted whenever winter or summer hits (especially by new players) is a bad design for a multiplayer game.

The other thing which bugged me even in RoG is that summer and winter don't seem to do what they are supposed to do - change up the way you as a player engage with the world. In total the game only requires you to have 4 items to counter any seasonal effects.

Mainly Thermal Stone and Umbrella, with a winter hat or one of the cooling items as an optional side thing to make it even simpler.

Think about what this means: Any veteran player knows that getting a thermal stone is easily possible in the first 2-3 days of the game. It is not a big deal at all if you know how the game works... For a new player ... well they don't even know that they NEED it. They get surprised by winter and summer which in turn is made to be deadly if you don't have the according objects on you.

To summarize these mechanics are a non-existent challenge for a player who knows how to deal with them (aka know how to get a alchemy engine and thermal stone) but can act as a huge hindrance for a newer player. They don't even get time to LEARN or react to this because weather will kill you impossibly fast if you don't have the items you need when winter/summer hits the world.

On a personal note: I also really dislike the fact that temperature acts directly on your HP. We allready have a shortterm thing to take care off which will kill you if you don't - its called hunger. Why have a secondary mechanic that does the exact same thing and not even in an interesting way. To me that's just redundant design that adds little to the overall experience.

 

I would like to hear the communities thoughts on this subject - am I alone with this feeling, do you agree or disagree? What would be a better way to handle temperature, maybe something that will not make inexperienced players desert the world and let servers that are currently in winter/summer stay completely barren of players?

 

================= MY OWN SUGGESTIONS IN THE SPOILER TAG =================
==================== Read at your own disgression ====================

  Reveal hidden contents

I got an idea myself which I will leave here to get the discussion going:

Thermal Stones: Either ditch them completely and make insulation completely clothes dependent OR make it craftable by some annual item such as the eyebrella from the deerclopses Eye (So super rare to get, and possibly only ONE time a year by ONE player) - In this scenario the stone would simply render you completely immune to any temperature related effects and be non-repairable.

Suggested Freezing Effects: Freezing does't affect your HP anymore, instead the more frozen you get the slower your movement and attack speed. Visualized by turning blue as if an ice staff or deerclops hit you. This will cap out on something like 40% speed reduction when completely frozen (temperature reached the lowest point). I would also add increased hunger loss and maybe a light sanity drain on the higher / highest level of freezing (This is mainly so that there is an additional way to balance the speed reduction without giving the player some incredible speed reduction like 80% which would be just super annoying and cause people to quit out anyways).

Suggested Winter Clothes Effects: Insulation would basically work the same way it always has. The more insulated you are, the slower the freezing effects creep up, so less speed reduction and a longer time to reach maximum freezing which would drain your hunger and sanity. I would however probably go a bit lighter on the speed at which you currently freeze.

Reasoning: In winter crops don't grow, grass doesn't come back, neither do twigs or berries. Food SHOULD be a concern in winter and optimally winter would force you to either have stockpiled food beforehands or force you to move further and further out as you have to scavenge food from the furthest corners of the world in order to stay alive. The freezing effect of decreased speed makes this process harder to do, less speed means that it becomes harder to scavenge the food and ressources you need (especially coupled with the non-regrowth in winter). It complements this aspect of winter and would truly mix up your playstyle.

At the same time this is severely less punishing for a new player. Joining a server in winter would no longer be so hard to do. You can join, you can learn and you have a good chance of at least EXISTING for more than 1-2 days even when starting from nothing. This ups the challenge for everyone, but doesn't punish a player for not kowing how to craft a thermal stone.

Additional Side-note: I am aware that food-wise you can simply survive on ice and monster meat to make infinite meatballs with two ressources you can basically have right outside your camp if you want to. I would definitely stop allowing ice cubes in the crock pot recipe for meatballs (or honestly either not allow ice as filler or make it so that using more than 1 ice results in wet goop or a "frozen meal" akin to how you get monster lasagnia if you put too much monster meat into a recipe).

Suggested Overheating Effects: Overheating doesn't affect your HP anymore, instead it doesn't affect you at all until you actually get completely overheated (reach 100% overheating), at which point you will get a "heatstroke". This will also neither kill you nor result in hurting your HP stat. Instead you will drop all items from your inventory and equipment slots and "pass out" for a short time (5~10 seconds possibly slightly random how long it actually lasts). So basically the effect that happens when you actually die (dropping all items), coupled with the effect when you sleep. Unlike sleeping this passed out state will deplete your sanity rapidly and not result in any HP gained or increased hunger loss though. Once you wake up your heat is reset to about 20%, making a successive heatstroke faster to happen if you don't cool down inbetween.

Suggested Cooling Effects: cooling items still work similiarly to what they did before (melon hat and ice cube hat makes you wet and keeps you cool, but depletes quickly, floral shirt would just slow down overheating). I think generally speaking the "cooling" items are a lot harder to come by and function a lot more short-term than the equivalent winter items. For example the hats make you wet and through that, insane, aswell as requiring ice (which is not obtainable during summer) or watermelons (which are also hard to obtain due to plant withering). Floral shirts are relatively easy to make but don't hold long and also don't STOP overheating, they just slow it. I think this is fair. The pinwheel only lasts for a short time and requires permanent movement. This all works pretty well in my opinion. The only adjustment I see could be that these items should only REDUCE body heat extremely slowly, but stop new overheating from accumulating instantly. Meaning: If you put on a watermelon hat or an icecube hat, your body heat doesn't immedaitely drop down to normal, but instead you will not get any more body heat and then slowly drain the accumulated body heat. This prevents wearing the hats for a few seconds to cool down, then going about your buisness again.

I would however change the "shadow" system to be more prominent. Currently trees spend shadow which stalls overheating... until you get a heatwave which is most of the summer, making this mechanic questionable and kina misleading. I would change it so that tree shadow actually put a hard cap on overheating, so they will always put a cap on overheating at the [current outside temperature -10%] while you are close to them. This means if your "body temperature" is above the [current outside temperature -10%] the tree will cool you down until you reach [current outside temperature -10%] . This ensures that you can never overheat while under a tree, but instead you stay very close to overheating (at least if its the maximum temperature outside) but you can actually "tree hop" and walk from tree to tree without getting heatstroke. Optimally, during maximum heat outside you should be able to walk 1-2 minutes (2-4 day segments) between "tree hops".

Additionally, juicy items, such as fruits could possibly cool your body temperature down during summer as a quick fix in a pinch.

Reasoning: I think summer allready does a lot more to mix up the playstyle, generally speaking. Plants wither and require fertilization, farms are harder to keep going, random fires can break out on burnable items in your vicinity. The suggested overheating effects play into this, by having you forcefully drop your inventory you can get a situation in which burnable objects start to fizzle and require extinguishing, which DOES hurt your HP a little - aswell as could theoretically result in actual burning down of parts of your inventory if you aren't fast enough to extinguish the dropped objects - its important to note that its important to take care that the "pass out time" isn't too long so this punishment is too severe as you can't get to your items before they catch fire.

As my suggestions concerning winter. This system would highlight the sanity system more, not be as abrasive to newcomers but pose interesting challenges for veterans. Again a player joining during summer will not have such a hard time and at least have a few days/weeks ingame to adjust and learn what he can do to battle the effects of summer (tree hopping, making pinwheels).

Still passing out is only dangerous in a dangerous situation and can be planned with and handled strategically. It invites risk-taking, without having you die for a single mistake (such as not looking out for that thermal stone duration).

 

Closing statement: I hope you enjoyed this read and I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter. I truly hope Klei will read this too and at least considers why I suggested the things I wrote. There are many ways to handle this problem, once it is acknowledged as a problem and I am sure Klei can find a solution that is as good or better as the suggestions I made here. Albeit it is unlikely to be seen/heard if there is no discussion happening in the thread. So I hope for the best and I hope I am not alone with these thoughts.

 

Regards,

Wyeth

I am sorry to say this, but stop whining and play your game

Your suggestions are great, but that will create a whole new experience and gameplay. Could be a good idea for a mod though.

[Wyeth]

2 hours ago, hyiltiz said:

I am sorry to say this, but stop whining and play your game

Your suggestions are great, but that will create a whole new experience and gameplay. Could be a good idea for a mod though.

Thank you, but at what point was I whining? I even said in the initial post that I want to hear if the community thinks there is a discussion to be had, or a problem to be solved. Are you just implying that any suggestion is automatically whining? Or just the ones you don't agree with personally?

At most I am concerned that after the release from early access in this state, new players will be turned away and servers will remain empty (which is allready what I am experiencing a lot). This can actually be something that damages the game overall too, not just a gameplay problem. I know at least 5 people who actually tried DST, tried to join during summer / winter, then never touched the game again and these people weren't the most experienced players for sure, but they did play DS and did survive their summers and winters before in the single player variant. They basically just went "this is awful!" and stuck with the base game. This is obviously purely anecdotal evidence, but it is what primed me to start this thread to discuss it.

Also about that, I am trying them out with a mod to see if they fix issues - to the best of my ability. It is a bit tricky for me to implement all the things I mentioned (particularily passing out mechanics and freezing/speed loss), for now I just turned down the HP punishment, removed thermal stones and ice as filler, aswell as turning up tree-shadow cooling. I can say to me personally it feels a lot better and its still hell to join during mid-summer especially, just actually more survivable as far as overheating goes. Also its kinda interesting to have clothes actually matter a lot, but I actually don't feel that the changes cause a "whole new experience" from what I seen, but don't wanna say too much about it because it requires more testing and I would like to have more of the suggested changes implemented on it before doing any analysis of the matter.

[t0panka]

2 hours ago, Wyeth said:

At most I am concerned that after the release from early access in this state, new players will be turned away and servers will remain empty (which is allready what I am experiencing a lot). This can actually be something that damages the game overall too, not just a gameplay problem. I know at least 5 people who actually tried DST, tried to join during summer / winter, then never touched the game again and these people weren't the most experienced players for sure, but they did play DS and did survive their summers and winters before in the single player variant. They basically just went "this is awful!" and stuck with the base game. This is obviously purely anecdotal evidence, but it is what primed me to start this thread to discuss it.

- the game is out of early access for a while and there are no "players will be turned away" situation going on ... look at stats .)

- your 5 people who know how summer works are joining in summer and then abandoning DST becasue they died and go to DS? Are you serious? Do they start their worlds in DS with summer? I don't think so. Why are they joining in summer? Also there is very few servers that are in summer so they must especially look for them and since they know summer from DS they were looking for hard start obviously and they stop playing DST because it was hard? I don't understand at all! New players that dont know what summer is about maybe but DS players? No way dude

- "turned down the HP punishment, removed thermal stones and ice as filler, aswell as turning up tree-shadow cooling" so now what is the summer challenge about? Build 1-2 flingos? Also why remove thermal stones? This feels a lot better? You just need whirly fan to negate overheating you just need to move. OK lets say that this is "better" for joining day1 in summer but this also destroys summer for everyone else and people who are joining summer day 1 vs everyone else is ridiculous + those people joining in summer will learn after 1-2x that joining in summer is out of their skill

- about seasons that empty servers out. Spring is not one of these seasons? If someone dont know how to make whirly fan that someone wont make proper rain protection to survive full water meter, freezing, dropping stuff, insanity and nightmares everywhere right?

- if people dont know how to survive summer/winter they will also die in caves, spring, any monsters, insanity, etc. etc. because they dont know how to survive. They need to learn from their deaths like everyone else on these forums learned except in DST you become ghost and wont loose your 100days world!

- in your OP you talking about 4 items you need to negate any season and new players dont know they need it. Your suggestion is to change the game mechanics because of this? How long need new player to learn how to make those 4 things? After that he will have changed game where you actually dont need those things at all so again what is the point?

 

To your suggestions:

- thermal stone: you say ditch them or make them super rare - this is going against your "new players have problems" logic because now you can make one and give it to that new player when he joins

- freezing effects: -40% speed reduction is annoying as hell, i think there is command to do this now so go try it and tell me how you wont leave because you are snail now

- winter clothes: here you just deleted HP loss for winter and this destroys more game mechanics than you know. "Should i wear puffy vest or bacpack? Should i wear beefalo hat for better protection or Tam for sanity?" I dont need any of that because making fire or burning some stuff to heat up is enough to negate your "freezing mechanics" and anyways Winter is only about 1 hat and resources for fire time to time

- reasoning: this mechanics wont make this harder to do just takes longer and is more annoying. Walking slower is your idea for challenge for "veterans"? How this mixs up your playstyle? PLZ explain. Getting rid of ice in crockpot recipes will be harder only for new players .)

- overheating: so here you not loosing HP (again) but when you get heatstroke your sanity goes down rapidly so you get nightmares attacking you on day 1-2 and new players or even advanced players dont know how to kite nightmares properly. This went from "taking little hp down (without whirlyfan!) to getting killed by nightmares

- cooling effects: yeah not every item in game is craftable since day one thats why there are options. Floral shirt if i remember correctly lasts whole summer. "Tree hop" is another mechanics that new players dont know and will get heatstroke and die to nightmares so this again changes nothing for new people leaving. Also you can treehop now too but it is not easy mode like you made it. Some crockpot recipes are cooling you down.

- resoning: Possibility for your dropped items to burn down and you will loose inventory is so highly punishing that even i would leave after this is i joined summer day1. Sanity system is highlighted plenty. You can experience this system when you go to caves if you cant handle overheating. Also PLZ explain what are the challenges for "veterans" here

- closing: the problem where you trying to change game mechanics can be solved with "informing new players about stuff" aka tutorial (but im highly against it since this changes what DS/DST is about), highlighting "season summer" on servers or writing there "this is not for new players", etc. You just trying to delete some game mechanics from game and replace them with easy mode or not at all which is maybe OK for that new player who needs few days to learn some stuff and overcome this problem

 

DST is already easier than DS and if you have just 1 friend you can make everything 2x faster in a world which is still the same as DS world where you doing stuff on your own so thats why i dont understand why Klei is changing this game to be easier because it already is. They already destroyed ghost sanity drain because of new players and didnt introduce anything actually challenging. Now summer and winter will become easy mode because of new players although we should be getting TTA which is something FINALLY made for late game and something for everyone else than new players (and those will be in this category really fast)

 

EDIT: FYI there were COUNTLESS threads about "summer is boring we need more stuff/monsters to do/kill" and no one bats and eye. Few "summer is hard for new players that shouldnt be starting in summer in first place" and Klei will change the seasons now?  

[Wyeth]

Thank you for giving reasons and being part of the discussion.

See now I know what you are thinking and I can actually react to it in any way.

Why those people stopped playing after dying from summer/winter - well they didn't look for them, it just happened to them after playing a bit and they got turned away because of it. That was simply an observation and I know I don't like to join servers that are in summer at least.

About the removed items. Actually inexperienced players don't know that they can use ice as a filler, at least not the ones I played with. To me it is one aspect that makes winter quite trivial for people who know how to do it, aswell as the thermal stone which negates the winter effects even more and longer than clothes do, but with no inventory / equipment management drawback. Clothes offer limited insulation for a while depending on what you wear etc. Yes you can still "recharge" your heat by simply burning down trees or making a campfire... but that is just the basic mechanic how you battle weather effects now is it? With a thermal stone you have to do it so rarely that it becomes almost neglectable.

Yes spring can be murder too, but you actually have a lot of time to react to the rain, it is annoying and will kill you eventually but you have days to figure it out, not half a day. The difference here is that it creates a greater chance for actually finding what you need to survive or at least it will FEEL that way. Even if you die from insanity or being struck by lightning, there has been more of a struggle there. You actually did things and tried things ... and failed, it is all about having room to improve INSIDE a normal game.

Again, ghosts don't exist in all the modes, especially not wilderness which was the mode I was mainly refering to, where these changes would be especially helpful. If people don't know how to survive they will still die, I am not disputing that, but giving them more time to learn how to survive is what would make this game better in my opinion, because it would foster a bigger amount of players who can actually play and survive eventually. You would be surprised how common it is that people don't want to be put into the "special class" because they aren't good enough (even if they really aren't able to survive). That said a tutorial still would help the people who actually do that kind of thing.

About my suggestions:

24 minutes ago, t0panka said:

- thermal stone: you say ditch them or make them super rare - this is going against your "new players have problems" logic because now you can make one and give it to that new player when he joins

Sorry but I really don't see the connection you are making here. Again this sounds to me as if you are mainly playing on survival servers with an established base. To me "another player can hand you this high level item" is not a proper solution to the new player problem, because it absolutely implies some sort of communal gameplay to begin with, which is not always given, especially not on non-survival servers. Surprisingly, players exist that like to play in a more solitary way, interacting with other players in a much more "realistic" way, either fighting them, evading them or making alliances. I am not implying that way is better or worse, I am saying you can solve ANY problem anyone can come up with in this direction by simply saying "a more established player can just come and fix the issue for you".

30 minutes ago, t0panka said:

- freezing effects: -40% speed reduction is annoying as hell, i think there is command to do this now so go try it and tell me how you wont leave because you are snail now

- winter clothes: here you just deleted HP loss for winter and this destroys more game mechanics than you know. "Should i wear puffy vest or bacpack? Should i wear beefalo hat for better protection or Tam for sanity?" I dont need any of that because making fire or burning some stuff to heat up is enough to negate your "freezing mechanics" and anyways Winter is only about 1 hat and resources for fire time to time

Again I am not sure I am not misunderstanding you here: You are saying a speed reduction is annoying as hell, this a problem... while in the next sentence saying that you just need one hat and ressources for a fire from time to time - implying that this is not harder to do than building one thermal stone? I just don't agree with this honestly. I think having to make fires again and again and actually caring about the freezing cold because of a speed reduction would be more challenging than building a thermal stone once, but those were just my personal suggestions for possible solutions in my eyes. It is only natural that you wouldn't agree with them, since you aren't agreeing with the whole idea of changing summer/winter.

35 minutes ago, t0panka said:

- reasoning: this mechanics wont make this harder to do just takes longer and is more annoying. Walking slower is your idea for challenge for "veterans"? How this mixs up your playstyle? PLZ explain. Getting rid of ice in crockpot recipes will be harder only for new players .)

Since you asked me to elaborate: Without thermal stones, everyone is affected by SOME sort of freezing effect at least sometimes. By making the effect something that you arent compeltely forced to react to (aka HP loss) but something equally "grating" I am thinking that veterans are more likely to actually "feel" anything about it. I know I wouldn't want to get a speed reduction, ever, so I will wear winter clothes and I will make fires when cold, but if I run out or make a small mistake, I will not simply be left for dead, I still get punished but not in the way that kills new players immediately.

About challenge or mixing up the playstyle. If you can't use ice as filler and berries don't regrow aswell as farms being unavailable coupled with movement speed decrease and increased hunger loss, the goal is to make you either stockpile food in the previous season or scavenge further and further for rabbit meat or leftover berries/carrots. Even if you do a bird / monster meat egg factory that still requires quite a bit of time to cook all the meats, feed them to the bird, then cooking them off. That takes like half of a day to do and I think its a lot fairer than just getting 20 ice and a few meats.

About most of the summer changes, I honestly don't know if thats the best solution for the problems. I do however think that making tree shadows more protective would allready do wonders for mid-season joiners. Not so much for new players (except if they figure it out, but thats not a given). The whole heatstroke thing was an attempt to think of a more interesting way to have summer work opposed to winter.

Also currently you can only tree-hop beginning or end of summer and possibly a little in the evenings. During high summer its not possible to do without a hat, and even then you will take damage immediately upon leaving the shadow at a staggering rate.

45 minutes ago, t0panka said:

- resoning: Possibility for your dropped items to burn down and you will loose inventory is so highly punishing that even i would leave after this is i joined summer day1. Sanity system is highlighted plenty. You can experience this system when you go to caves if you cant handle overheating. Also PLZ explain what are the challenges for "veterans" here

I find it quite interesting that you feel that this is really punishing, but outright dying and losing all your stuff is fine? You know you still drop your items and the burning of random objects is IN effect during summer too? Meaning the fact that you are still there, able to act and extinguish your items is actually less punishing than what currently happens (You die, you drop everything, it may burn down, but you are nowhere near so you won't even have a chance to prevent this, well or you are close but a ghost that can't prevent the items from burning either) - of course this is no problem if you have a partner with you, but that's an entirely different scenario that would counter this problem in the current system and the new one equally.

You keep saying everything is super easy in DST when you have one friend and I tend to agree that playing with a "premade" team (even if its just a team of 2 people) is considerably easier than playing alone. Keep in mind that not everyone has that luxury and you may want to play without anyone for your own reasons.

You seem to be a strong believer that "noobs" should just be placed in a special "noob area" until they learn the game. I don't think the majority of people would appreciate this. Heck people are allready getting frustrated just from a game telling them how to do a simple thing half the time. Try to keep in mind that there are more ways than one to play the game and just having absolutely no newcomer friendliness can be a death sentence to ANY online mulitplayer game in the long run.

I do get it, you want the game to stay the way it is. You enjoy it the way it is and you feel that this thread and the many others adressing "issues" will destroy the game for you - and honestly you may be right about that. I been in that situation too in other games. I do appreciate that you are voicing your concerns here in a clearer way. Keep in mind that the developers of this game listen to the community and will most likely read your concerns too, which may or may not sway them to keep it in mind or go about changes they decide to do differently.

That said, this is a multiplayer game and I believe it will still evolve quite a bit, so there is a huge chance that some of the things you love about it will be changed in the future to be better for the majority of the players.

[Arlesienne]

Thinking about what you can make in the beginning without any research station... Why hasn't anyone mentioned the straw hat? Twelve units of cut grass is not much and it lasts five days. During this time, anyone actually eager to explore the game will look through the recipes and likely seek outside help. Additionally any player should make some brief introduction ("the spirit of togetherness" as some forum members dubbed it) and then they can try to find each other or at least give some tips. A whirly fan is one twig and three petals - not much either. Both are available from the start.

[hyiltiz]

Autumn: live!

Winter: torch and wait for help (thermal stone is tier-2 item; unless you are given one or see a science machine, you are gonna die before you can get to that point )

Spring: pretty parasol, straw hat, tree and, if necessary, campfire to dry off.

Summer: whirly fan, straw hat till and wait for help; floral shirt, endothermic fire/firepit is beyond your power as a starter.

Now, please do stop whining if u cannot do these, and just join autumn servers, or those where u have friends to pick u up. After all, it is about Together.

[leonseye]

This thread, and all the others about the same topic, are usually summed up in the exact same manner: knowledge about the game world makes what was once difficult and daunting almost trivial to deal w/.

I still don't see an issue w/ this.

Tossing a person into the woods who has no experience would likely end in the same fashion: terrible and easily preventable death.

Tossing a person into the woods who has prior survival experience would likely be a far more successful proposition once they've secured food, water, and shelter.

I don't feel that "the majority of players" are asking for Summer and Winter to be changed to be easier.  I honestly feel that the majority of players might die a few times, but will either learn from their mistakes or look for advice on how to overcome those challenges.

And once they realize how simple it is to overcome said challenges, they usually complain more about the fun factor of Summer (Winter doesn't get a ton of complaints, from what I've seen in the threads tbh) than the necessity of making both of these seasons easier for new players.

I find that to be rather telling about the necessity to change those seasons for "new players".

[Sivdun]

The problem with summer is that it offers you nothing of value, so you don't care that much about it.

As others wrote, winter gives you Mac Tusks, Ice and Penguins, what summer gives you? Cactus flowers and withering, WOW now that's something worth hunting after. Some people think that summer is tamming season for beefs because you have nothing to do and you just stay in your base anyway, so why not?  If Klei intention was to send people to caves during summer, then they did pretty god job with what we have now.

Anyway winter is easier at early game because stuff don't wither and you can pick it up later. You can warm yourself enough with only torch and trees. Early game at summer is harder because you need to get to cave as fast as possible or find desert to get basic resources (I prefer cave) because everything around dies so you won't be able to get stuff from surface that easily.

However in late game winter is worse because you don't have access to sources that need to grow (grass, twigs, berries, crops) so if you don't have those dragon fruits on your farms already, you must wait until spring. Still, Tam o'Shanter and Tusk is enough reward for surviving until winter and totally worth the wait. During late game summer you have access to renewable sources when you have Flingo set in right place, but that's all.

We need exclusive content for summer, something high tier so people will lust after those items.

 

[Viru]

4 hours ago, Erec said:

Anyway winter is easier at early game because stuff don't wither and you can pick it up later. You can warm yourself enough with only torch and trees.

Winter is far easier in late game since you already have everything you need.

3 hours ago, Erec said:

 However late game winter is worse because you don't have access to sources that need to grow (grass, twigs, berries, crops) so if you don't have those dragon fruits on your farms already, you must wait until spring. Still, Tam o'Shanter and Tusk is enough reward for surviving until winter and totally worth the wait. During late game summer you have access to renewable sources when you have Flingo set in right place, but that's all.

By late game Winter, you should have an established base with more than enough resources to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs until Spring. You have ice EVERYWHERE during Winter for fillers, cactus is still available assuming you're near a desert, and you should also have a **** ton of basic resources stockpiled from previous seasons that's basically just sitting in your chests waiting to be used.

If you're smart, you should have plenty of grass tufts, saplings, trees, berry bushes, etc. planted near your base so renewable resources aren't a problem at all. Should have a few flingers ready by Summer to protect them.

3 hours ago, Erec said:

We need exclusive content for summer, something high tier so people will lust after those items.

Summer is the perfect time to base in caves/explore the ruins as well getting some of dem fancy items yo (Lazy Explorer, Star Caller's Staff, Houndius Shootius, etc).

[DarkXero]

1 hour ago, Virusei said:

Summer is the perfect time to base in caves/explore the ruins as well getting some of dem fancy items yo (Lazy Explorer, Star Caller's Staff, Houndius Shootius, etc).

You explore the ruins once.

The place gets barren, and the Guardian doesn't respawn.

[Viru]

8 minutes ago, DarkXero said:

You explore the ruins once.

The place gets barren, and the Guardian doesn't respawn.

Sadly that's true, but at least it's nice to explore during the first Summer- assuming servers don't reset or you're on an endless server. After that, there's really nothing else to do except maybe build a mega base.

I do wish guardian respawns like Dragonfly. Would be sweet to have a **** ton of Houndius Shootius in your base.

[fb03]

 Ah~ I remember when I first played DST with my friends. I've never had DS before of then, and everything was new for me and them. It's true that when you don't know how the game works, you can't manage to survive. "Hey, Trees are the only way to survive overheating!" "Yeah! Let's go under them!", or "Hey, during winter, let's just stay at the fire, we'll manage to get the food somehow" are just some examples of my experience, and I know why new people don't join during summer or winter. It should be a more bit balanced. You know when you first join a server at night, when the portal gives you light? I think something like that for winter and summer would be useful. Join in winter? Can't freeze for 4-5 days. Something like that. So that the mechanics don't change, but you can still be safe by joining during hard seasons.

[CarlZalph]

1 hour ago, fb03 said:

You know when you first join a server at night, when the portal gives you light? I think something like that for winter and summer would be useful. Join in winter? Can't freeze for 4-5 days. Something like that. So that the mechanics don't change, but you can still be safe by joining during hard seasons.

I've seen some cheeky users log out and back in multiple times to get that heat source back as they find supplies.

[DVGMedia]

5 hours ago, Virusei said:

If you're smart, you should have plenty of grass tufts, saplings, trees, berry bushes, etc. planted near your base so renewable resources aren't a problem at all. Should have a few flingers ready by Summer to protect them.

that is why resource varients was a thing that was implemented so that mega bases wouldnt ruin the gamplay and you also had to be more strategic.

also there is a preset to turn off reign of giants when making a world if summer is too much of a problem

 

[Viru]

1 hour ago, CarlZalph said:

I've seen some cheeky users log out and back in multiple times to get that heat source back as they find supplies.

Can also log out and go right back in for a source of light at night and avoid depth worms/hound attacks. You'll still hear the warnings, but they don't spawn.

[DarkXero]

2 hours ago, CarlZalph said:

I've seen some cheeky users log out and back in multiple times to get that heat source back as they find supplies.

The spawnlight not only protects from freezing. It protects from overheating too.

The ambient temperature within a 10 units radius of the light gets clamped between 10, and the overheating temperature minus 20.

If you have a dedicated group then all you need to do is log out / log in to generate a impervious to the elements zone for the rest of dusk/night.

[Bahlsen]

5 hours ago, DarkXero said:

the Guardian doesn't respawn.

That's weird, considering you have 3 guardians per world and world hopping in the solo. He should respawn like the Dragonfly.

[Sivdun]

7 hours ago, Virusei said:

Winter is far easier in late game since you already have everything you need.

 

7 hours ago, Virusei said:

By late game Winter, you should have an established base with more than enough resources to just sit there and twiddle your thumbs until Spring. You have ice EVERYWHERE during Winter for fillers, cactus is still available assuming you're near a desert, and you should also have a **** ton of basic resources stockpiled from previous seasons that's basically just sitting in your chests waiting to be used.

You read my post correctly, not having access to renewable sources in winter is minus in my opinion, however in summer it's not a problem so summer got +1 from me here, I agree with stockpiling, but even when you have it you still miss ability to regrow basic resorces back (unless you go to desert) and crops also. About  "twiddle your thumbs", winter let you go after Mac Tusks so it's not so "sit in base do nothing" because you got something worthy that will be available only during winter, summer won't give you something like that.

7 hours ago, Virusei said:

If you're smart, you should have plenty of grass tufts, saplings, trees, berry bushes, etc. planted near your base so renewable resources aren't a problem at all. Should have a few flingers ready by Summer to protect them.

 

11 hours ago, Erec said:

During late game summer you have access to renewable sources when you have Flingo set in right place, but that's all.

 

7 hours ago, Virusei said:

Summer is the perfect time to base in caves/explore the ruins as well getting some of dem fancy items yo (Lazy Explorer, Star Caller's Staff, Houndius Shootius, etc).

 

11 hours ago, Erec said:

If Klei intention was to send people to caves during summer, then they did pretty god job with what we have now.

There you go, you just confirmed what I wrote about

[PanAzej]

Joining during winter/summer is kind of a problem.

See, in single player it made sense: Oh, you picked all resources nearby? Well, good luck, winter/summer comes, you better have some of that stuff stockpiled. 

Even when starting during winter/summer resources are still there/don't wither right away. So you can still prepare.

In DST you hope to get lucky in winter to find that 2 grass and 2 twigs.

And summer? Hahaha, good luck. 12 grass for a straw hat? Are you mad? 6 flowers + twigs + grass for a ultra-fast spoiling weak umbrella? Whirly fan? Oh, 3 twigs? Shame that all saplings are withered! 

We need that stuff changed for multiplayer. 

[Arlesienne]

Thorny bushes never wither. So you pray for the swamp. Or the desert. And grass geckos :D.