How Skins Could've Been "Innocent" and Trade Inn Discussion

[shawshank]

1 hour ago, t0panka said:

Exactly. DST items are already marketable. All that will change is that players will have proper way to buy/sell items and also be properly informed about prices. I think some of players here against idea of marketable items are afraid that they could not sell their items for big amount of keys because now people will be informed about prices in market and noone can trick someone to buy 1 item for 20 keys (at least not that easily) + Klei will get small amount of $ (maybe even big amount) from marketable items and that is good for every one of us!

Also for those who have no experience with steam market. If you wanna buy something on market you need to add "steam funds" to your account. Also if you sell your items that money will be locked in your steam account. You are not getting it to your bank account so you can use that money only on steam to buy other items or games. It is the same as it is happening now with keys. After this update we will have all place to see prices and also sell some lower items. Even if it was for 0.01$ for 1 common you still can get enough "steam $" to buy better items after some time. 

Now i have 5.87€ on my steam account only from selling free cards we get from playing games and those free cards we get with special events like we did on christmas. I can already buy SW only because i sold free stuff. This game will be free(cost my time of course) for me and Klei will still get their $ if i purchase it with these "steam $".

More people iddling means more money for Klei and that means more content for us. Who doesn't want that? Do some of you want some elegant item more than new content to our favourite game? Also there is plenty of iddlers and most of us even trading with them and noone has problems with that. They are not bothering anyone - at least they never bothered me. People will still cheat, grief, sell, go around rules, etc. no matter what Klei will do.

 

BTW noone will put Wigfrid head on market for 300 or 500$ so please STOP scaring people with this. Now everyone thinks they need second job to afford some elegant item. Thats ridiculous :/ Also noone is forcing you to sell/buy for keys or "steam $" at all .)

Couldn't agree more.

All that making these items marketable will do is create revenue for Klei (with which they will be able to introduce more content to this wonderful game), make items more easily available to the average player, and educate players on rarity and prices for each of the items (along with which items are even available in the first place!)  If the price of any items are currently artificially inflated by people hoarding them/bad information on the forums about their rarity/etc, it will likely even *lower* the price of them (this happened with earbuds once they became marketable in TF2).

Additionally, there will still be plenty of traders that trade only for other DST items or keys, because they won't want to pay the 20% "Steam Market Tax" when they could get 100% of the value out of their item.

This will only increase the overall diversity and market knowledge for our virtual doll clothes

 

[JohnConnor]

14 hours ago, leonseye said:

Sure, Ralphie Yoyo might want to sell his Wigfrid GoH for $200 and is willing to wait, but if Joe Happy and Tommy Smiles are also trying to unload their Wigfrid GoHs at the same time and only care about getting rid of them fast for $50, Ralphie Yoyo is going to have some problems selling his for that price.

Maybe Ralphie Yoyo will buy Joe Happy and Tommy Smiles's Wigfrid GOH and then selling each of the 3 at $200

[Arcita]

4 minutes ago, JohnConnor said:

Maybe Ralphie Yoyo will buy Joe Happy and Tommy Smiles's Wigfrid GOH and then selling each of the 3 at $200

What's to stop Ralphie Yoyo from doing that right now?

[shawshank]

3 minutes ago, JohnConnor said:

Maybe Ralphie Yoyo will buy Joe Happy and Tommy Smiles's Wigfrid GOH and then selling each of the 3 at $200

If he's "lucky" then he sells all 3 to some rich impatient fools.  The more likely scenario is that he is undercut by several other owners who are then easily able to sell for less and days/weeks later he is forced to sell at a severe loss. 

[leonseye]

8 minutes ago, shawshank said:

If he's "lucky" then he sells all 3 to some rich impatient fools.  The more likely scenario is that he is undercut by several other owners who are then easily able to sell for less and days/weeks later he is forced to sell at a severe loss. 

This is the most likely scenario, imo.  Ralphie Yoyo would be taking a huge risk by banking on the hopes that nobody else gets a Wigfrid GoH during the time that he's trying to sell his for ridiculous prices, w/out any feasible way to control the rate at which other sellers might obtain that same item.

[Mikeadatrix]

Just checking in... I am enjoying reading this discussion, however, I see a lot of people here don't care that skins are gonna be Officially Steam Marketable. Listen to this, My friend, name disclosed for reasons, just traded his Wig Set. For 20 TF2 keys, quick math says, $50 American Dollars....... Yeah... The market is pretty corrupt and so is the community. All we can hope is Klei makes a MannCo storeish Trade Inn so we can keep SM values and prices low. Quoting Fid. He brought up a stellar point. (Also to those who say that skins are no big deal in DST, your right. But we care, so that's why this is here.)

[leonseye]

52 minutes ago, Mikeadatrix said:

Just checking in... I am enjoying reading this discussion, however, I see a lot of people here don't care that skins are gonna be Officially Steam Marketable. Listen to this, My friend, name disclosed for reasons, just traded his Wig Set. For 20 TF2 keys, quick math says, $50 American Dollars....... Yeah... The market is pretty corrupt and so is the community. All we can hope is Klei makes a MannCo storeish Trade Inn so we can keep SM values and prices low. Quoting Fid. He brought up a stellar point. (Also to those who say that skins are no big deal in DST, your right. But we care, so that's why this is here.)

Well, for starters, it sounds like your friend just scammed whoever that poor sucker was.  But hey, they obviously felt it was worth that much, so to each their own, I suppose.

However, on Steam marketplace, you'd be able to easily see how much people were selling / trading these items for, so cases like this where somebody charges way more than an item normally goes for wouldn't happen nearly as often.

Klei turning the Trade Inn into a RL money store to buy items doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, considering that Klei is the one who is giving us these skins in the first place through playing the game.. for free.

And also, I just personally dislike the idea of bringing real money trade directly into the game itself.  If people want to trade for things like this outside of game, that's fine; that is already happening.  Steam marketplace just makes that a bit easier and more fair, imo.

But putting a real money store directly into the game is a different beast entirely, and one that I'd much rather not uncage.

[t0panka]

18 minutes ago, Mikeadatrix said:

Just checking in... I am enjoying reading this discussion, however, I see a lot of people here don't care that skins are gonna be Officially Steam Marketable. Listen to this, My friend, name disclosed for reasons, just traded his Wig Set. For 20 TF2 keys, quick math says, $50 American Dollars....... Yeah... The market is pretty corrupt and so is the community. All we can hope is Klei makes a MannCo storeish Trade Inn so we can keep SM values and prices low. Quoting Fid. He brought up a stellar point. (Also to those who say that skins are no big deal in DST, your right. But we care, so that's why this is here.)

This is great example (it is Wigfrid GOH + Valkyrie armor for 20 keys ... also he didn't trade it yet). He found someone who is willing to pay that much ... that someone doesn't know for how much other Wigfrid heads sold so thats why he doesn't know what is "good price" (maybe small maybe big) for those items. Market will fix this because people can see what prices are for items and also history of sold items so everyone will be informed about value of items.

Noone is corrupt and community has no problems dude what are you talking about. Someone prefer steam funds over skins, someone doesnt care about skins, someone has time for trading, someone has extra money on steam so he is buying what he wants. I don't see any problem with this.

If you don't want to use market you don't need to.

Noone is forcing you.

Nothing will change for you.

I wont use it either but that doesn't mean i want to kill it for other people. I am thinking about those players which bought higher tier items (sometimes even lower tier) for ridiculous amounts of $$ (keys) only because of lack of information about "prices". It is still better to make it official than putting items for auction and looking for someone crazy enough to buy it for lot of keys right?

[Mikeadatrix]

I do agree. 20 keys is overkill. But the person really wanted it. Like said, rich people. If the Trade Inn and New Market goes "decent" he may be a little but... screwed.

[Mikeadatrix]

14 minutes ago, leonseye said:

Well, for starters, it sounds like your friend just scammed whoever that poor sucker was.  But hey, they obviously felt it was worth that much, so to each their own, I suppose.

However, on Steam marketplace, you'd be able to easily see how much people were selling / trading these items for, so cases like this where somebody charges way more than an item normally goes for wouldn't happen nearly as often.

Klei turning the Trade Inn into a RL money store to buy items doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, considering that Klei is the one who is giving us these skins in the first place through playing the game.. for free.

And also, I just personally dislike the idea of bringing real money trade directly into the game itself.  If people want to trade for things like this outside of game, that's fine; that is already happening.  Steam marketplace just makes that a bit easier and more fair, imo.

But putting a real money store directly into the game is a different beast entirely, and one that I'd much rather not uncage.

Steam Market prices will be unfair, but if Klei charges $3 dollars for a GoH, that will be the max price, and you can't go over.

[leonseye]

28 minutes ago, Mikeadatrix said:

Steam Market prices will be unfair, but if Klei charges $3 dollars for a GoH, that will be the max price, and you can't go over.

You say this as though it is a certainty, but markets have a way of evening themselves out over time.  

You can't really just cite the worst case scenario as though it were fact.  I'm sure prices will be high at first, but will become reasonable after time.

I don't know what you might consider an "unfair" price to be.  If the majority of the community is willing to pay that price, is that not then considered the "fair" price for the item?

[Mikeadatrix]

1 hour ago, leonseye said:

You say this as though it is a certainty, but markets have a way of evening themselves out over time.  

You can't really just cite the worst case scenario as though it were fact.  I'm sure prices will be high at first, but will become reasonable after time.

I don't know what you might consider an "unfair" price to be.  If the majority of the community is willing to pay that price, is that not then considered the "fair" price for the item?

Say 50 dollars is "fair" to the community.

[Mikeadatrix]

19 minutes ago, Mikeadatrix said:

Say 50 dollars is "fair" to the community.

Listen, Im out of it... I said my piece of mind... and thats it.

[thegreatmanagement]

4 hours ago, shawshank said:

If he's "lucky" then he sells all 3 to some rich impatient fools.  The more likely scenario is that he is undercut by several other owners who are then easily able to sell for less and days/weeks later he is forced to sell at a severe loss. 

The only problem I can see with this is that what if he isn't completely undercut? If someone else sells theirs for less, yeah he lost out there. But what the supply of Wigfrids starts running low? (more people want to keep it, maybe a random drop gap due to probability) That means for at least a small amount of time, someone like him selling for 200$ can actually control the market for his item. And then that's where the things start to worse. 

[ailailou]

3 hours ago, Mikeadatrix said:

$3 dollars for a GoH

I'm just going to say it because I can't hold it in any longer: that number right there, that fictional yet likely price of $3 for 1 dst skin, is absolute bonkers in my opinion. Just like trading a ton of those keys for any dst skin is.

I would never buy a piece of dst skin from the market if they were available there, because I consider features that simply change visual content not quite worthy of my bucks, no matter how cool they might be or how badly I'd want them and at the same time I don't want to pay money to some random user for an item anyone could get for free at any point. I'd rather channel my money straight to the developer, Klei Entertainment in this case, even though the feeling has started to fade away this week.

From all the unreasonable options that involve spending real money on skins the one that I consider the most reasonable of them all and the one which I would be willing to pay for is a skin package released by Klei, containing all the skin items collection, all the rarities, and even then, even then, it would be the least desirable purchase of a Klei product I'd ever make and that because I have this deeply rooted view that I'm being stolen if I'd ever pay money for nothing more than a visual option in a videogame, unless it is part of the game from the beginning, even if "hidden" under a higher price tag of the videogame product. It automatically leaves a taste of pay2win in my mouth even though it would never be the case in this situation. I don't care if everybody would be wearing a tuxedo on a server, because we would at least look quite different than before (not common level different), which is one of the results I keep waiting for from the skin system.

The thing that made me jump on the "I'm done with the game" bandwagon was this part which I'm guessing represents the view of @klei concerning the topic:

Quote

 At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items.

Why even allow such a thing to happen? At the moment the value of anything above spiffy in tf2 or cs:go keys is way too high. The prices will stabilize but at what number, and how long will it take? A simple projection: it will even out at around $1 per distinguished, in a couple of months or whenever a batch of new skin pieces gets released? My dear Klei, you have charged $5 for Shipwrecked, and now you are expecting me to pay about the same amount for a single elegant, money which doesn't even go in your pocket but rather to a random steam user? But of course you're not the one setting the prices, at least not directly, so it shouldn't be you, my dear Klei, that I should be disappointed in, it's the community because we, the community, have the liberty to set up our own prices on skins.

The free dst copy everyone received if they registered for the beta before June 2015 and the low price tag of $5 for Shipwrecked are starting to get points which I cannot use anymore to defend bad decisions (even if it's just to myself) such as the handling of the skins and dst pvp. 

[thegreatmanagement]

8 hours ago, werlpolf said:

- People with many of the best skins have either played alot and got some luck or paid some money for their skins

6. Recommendation: If you want to include money with the skins, then let also the designers participate on the win. For example instead of a skin, we can also get some gift cards. With these gift cards we can get some discount on skins, which we choose on the steam market with a fixed or varied price. Then I will not have any problem about selling skins to others. But getting skins for free and selling them is very weird to me. Its like lumbering the jungles.

We can even go one step further: DST is for free with some restrictions (1st year free, specific items not availbe, etc). To get over these restrictions, we need to play alot and then we get some licences. By activating these licenses on steam, we can get more of the game. These licenses are trabable with money on steam. How do you like it XD

 

 

A few wrong ideas. First, there are a lot of people with a lot of upper skins because you know... they traded up for it? Not even from trading the drops they have, but you know making beneficial trades over and over again many many times does get you somewhere you'd think. 

Also, the gift card idea seems really counterintuitive? Because 1. If you want Klei to make money, how do they make money by giving us gift cards to buy things? That's them giving money to get some of it back? You can't just give someone "money" in the form of a gift card without it costing them money you know. Even if its a discount card, depending on who we buy from, that wouldn't feasibly work because who's going to make up the discount difference? A player who's selling the item won't just give you a discount because you got a card... not to mention Steam would definitely not cover the discount difference. 

The idea of DST with restrictions I don't like even more honestly. It's not that I'm against unlocking things in game (like how you unlock characters in DS, I just realized this so edit). But why would they grant licenses just for that? You shouldn't be able to trade something like that (especially for money that's where this gets even more dangerous) This sounds like it would lead to people making licenses over and over again just to sell them? (which is a problem related to skins already) Definitely not a good idea in my opinion (especially the part where licenses are worth money omg) 

[thegreatmanagement]

8 hours ago, werlpolf said:

This I mean. I am thinking it is a win-lose situation. DST skins have no value, because you get them for free. Its like I am selling you a rock and telling you its a beautifull magic rock. Or I gifting you a rose, which I got from your own garden. This business must be prevented and not developed.

I thought about it. Fact is, as many people here are telling it, folks are trading with these skins anyway (not very clever). Now because they like to trade with it, but it has no real value (you make the value by your own interest only), Klei can give it a value by pricing them. You guys seems indeed interested in them and like to give money for them. Then give the money the designers -> Klei. Then everyone can trade with them with others like you do with steam-games. The direct buying and trading will function harmonically. But CURRENTLY everyone should give their skins away for free, because they got them also for free.

Okay something tells me you just plain don't know too much about economics, not trying to be rude here  Items that don't have a value doesn't mean they can't attain a value? Even if it wasn't intended to? Like think about it - gold in some parts of the world is literally found just sitting there on the ground (I mean not anymore nowadays because it's been taken already, but back when it happened you know?); you telling people to just give that away for free? Yeah it took you almost no effort to get it, but it's valuable to someone else, so therefore it becomes worth something. 

Klei giving them a value would only encourage more transactions to become money based, instead of items based (which actually a lot of people would prefer over money in my opinion - I know I do) What this says to me is that you think skins should be more exclusively sold instead of traded because Klei earns a commission off each sold item, but they don't earn anything from people trading skins for skins... That sounds off to me. 

Also, you can't expect people to just downright give their skins away FOR FREE also - that makes 0 economic sense. Even if you get something for free, does that mean you have to just give it away? With no incentive or reason? You can't expect people to act like that because in laymen terms, we do things out of interest. Giving things away for free 99% of the time is acting out of your own interest. I mean at least, if you say giving away for free to mean trading skins for skins, that's a reasonable point I can suppose. Either you're very very wrong on your last sentence, or you phrased it wrong basically. 

 

 

[Moon64]

I'd like to see skins given away for special events / holidays, etc 

Logging in during the week of Christmas? Here's a Christmas skin/gift from Klei.

I'd also like to see more items skinned other than backpacks.

As for people arguing against skins being monetized; this was bound to happen unless you want skins to be completely untradeable. No one is forcing you to buy a skin or participate in the skin market. I also agree that prices will bottom out the longer the item is available and the more items that are released. If you're actually playing the game, by the time more skins are released, you should have plenty to trade to be able to get a hold of your favorites.

[t0panka]

@thegreatmanagement dude please for the love of god stop with this 200$ madness.(you are scaring ailailou .) Stop it right now. Noone is selling this high and noone did and noone will. Maybe just some crazy individual that reads this extreme opinion. Please stop using that number. 

@ailailou skins are selling now and they will be selling after whatever update. We wont and don't need to participate in market. That is just second option for people that want to (well because there are other types of players than your "type" right?). Noone is forcing you. We will be still changing skins like we did before between each other. Skins are selling now and you and me didnt sold any skins but we traded with each other without "quiting the game" so why now? Only thing that is changing: now Klei will get something from those trades for $$. Why do you want to leave now? We still get them for free, we still trade them for free, we still not using "keys market". I really don't understand dude :/

[thegreatmanagement]

1 minute ago, t0panka said:

@thegreatmanagement dude please for the love of god stop with this 200$ madness.(you are scaring ailailou .) Stop it right now. Noone is selling this high and noone did and noone will. Maybe just some crazy individual that reads this extreme opinion. Please stop using that number. 

@ailailou skins are selling now and they will be selling after whatever update. We wont and don't need to participate in market. That is just second option for people that want to (well because there are other types of players than your "type" right?). Noone is forcing you. We will be still changing skins like we did before between each other. Skins are selling now and you and me didnt sold any skins but we traded with each other without "quiting the game" so why now? Only thing that is changing: now Klei will get something from those trades for $$. Why do you want to leave now? We still get them for free, we still trade them for free, we still not using "keys market". I really don't understand dude :/

Lol I didnt even mention that price though... I mentioned it from my quote because someone else said it first ;o I don't fully agree that it'd reach 200 either, but I still think it could be a decently high price anyway for some time (higher than now at least) 

[TemporaryMan]

1 hour ago, Moon64 said:

I'd like to see skins given away for special events / holidays, etc 

Logging in during the week of Christmas? Here's a Christmas skin/gift from Klei.

Now those are the ones that could potentially inflate to $200, since they wouldn't be available afterward.  (Of course, they could be made not tradable.)

[leonseye]

2 hours ago, ailailou said:

The thing that made me jump on the "I'm done with the game" bandwagon was this part which I'm guessing represents the view of @klei concerning the topic:

Why even allow such a thing to happen? At the moment the value of anything above spiffy in tf2 or cs:go keys is way too high. The prices will stabilize but at what number, and how long will it take? A simple projection: it will even out at around $1 per distinguished, in a couple of months or whenever a batch of new skin pieces gets released? My dear Klei, you have charged $5 for Shipwrecked, and now you are expecting me to pay about the same amount for a single elegant, money which doesn't even go in your pocket but rather to a random steam user? But of course you're not the one setting the prices, at least not directly, so it shouldn't be you, my dear Klei, that I should be disappointed in, it's the community because we, the community, have the liberty to set up our own prices on skins. 

I can understand some of what you mean here, but the real question I have is:

Why not just not participate in the trading economy if even $1 is considered "too much" for you to pay for any skin item?  This is what I don't understand.

Why not just play the game you already own and enjoy the skins that you get while doing so... for free?

I probably also wouldn't pay a lot for skins in a video game (though I've been known to do so in other games, if they are cheap enough and I know that I'll be playing the game for a long time, like DST), but the fact that other people are willing to do so doesn't bother me in the least.

There is an option available for me that has been present from the very beginning to entirely bypass the trading prices set by the community, and that is just ... playing a game that I love.

I'm pretty okay w/ that, myself.  It's like a win / win.  Do something I like and get cool stuff for doing it.  Sure, I don't get to pick and choose the specific items that I get, but wouldn't I have been playing the game anyway?  Where's the harm in that?

Not to mention that just because some people are utilizing the Steam marketplace doesn't mean that every single DST player will suddenly and completely only use the marketplace in the future.  You can still trade amongst friends and give things away, just like now.

[RalphKastro]

7 minutes ago, leonseye said:

Why not just play the game you already own and enjoy the skins that you get while doing so... for free?

Your entire idea has only one base flaw: What's the point of playing games(or doing anything in general) if you can't look dapper while doing it?

[thegreatmanagement]

 

Just now, RalphKastro said:

Your entire idea has only one base flaw: What's the point of playing games(or doing anything in general) if you can't look dapper while doing it?

He has a point - what's wrong with wanting to get the fullest experience you can? Sure, maybe it works even if you don't have as many skins as everyone else, but it'd surely be nice to know you had the same opportunities as everyone else in order to get them apart from as an incredibly rare in-game drop (not by buying them, as some people don't have the money to do that) 

[werlpolf]

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

Even if its a discount card, depending on who we buy from, that wouldn't feasibly work because who's going to make up the discount difference?

As a business man you ve always to calculate the your price, which is already a discounted price. Means, if you go to a supermarket and gets some discount on something, then the shop still makes win. Discounts are an idea to motivate buyer to buy more (quantity discount) or to buy regularly. Klei would still make win

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

A player who's selling the item won't just give you a discount because you got a card

Thats right and actually I didn't thought of it. But I think the prices between private people on steam will be stabilized like many here have also said it. Means the prices will be near the discounted prices - somtimes higher somtimes lower.

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

The idea of DST with restrictions I don't like even more honestly.

yeah, I too. I wanted to provoke a little to show how I see the skin trading. I tried to apply the skin scenario (getting skins over time while playing) on the whole DST game (getting game functions (including skins) over time while playing)

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

This sounds like it would lead to people making licenses over and over again just to sell them? (which is a problem related to skins already)

exactly, my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

Like think about it - gold in some parts of the world is literally found just sitting there on the ground

It is quite rare, difficult to make false copies. easy to recognise, does not change over long time (resistent not burnable) and easy to trade because its handy. I think it didn't sit just on the ground and now currently it is a good alternativ in saving some furtune, because paper (debt) money is actually nothing worth, espeacially when a states economy goes down. Happened alot in the past, is happening even in some european countries, ... but thats off topic. You can compare the skins with some oil paintings and other art objects. Difference is only the value.

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

but it's valuable to someone else, so therefore it becomes worth something. 

only because it is worth for someone something, you don't need to think of your own gain. If you see a loss in giving your (free) item away, then you can get something from him, too, which he also got for free (another skin for example). Not everything should be tradable with eachother. Some things in our life cannot be bought with money and thats actually very good! How much do you value Linux? Or Firefox? Or Libre Office, Java, OpenSSL, ....?

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

you think skins should be more exclusively sold instead of traded because Klei earns a commission off each sold item, but they don't earn anything from people trading skins for skins... That sounds off to me

yes, its unfair that 3rd parties gain win while the producer gets nothing from it. But I was wronged. Steam trading let producers also participate on the trade.

 

2 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

Also, you can't expect people to just downright give their skins away FOR FREE also - that makes 0 economic sense. Even if you get something for free, does that mean you have to just give it away? With no incentive or reason?

I could quote from the bible... but thats off topic XD. You don't need to give everything for free. You got some things for free and you can give other people also something, for what they are interested in. But that's philosophy. You guys can trade with the skins, I fully understand it. But I don't encourage it.