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Mikeadatrix

How Skins Could've Been "Innocent" and Trade Inn Discussion

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4 minutes ago, t0panka said:

Why are you so extreme? I was talking about elegant items (1:1)

If you want to make profit then go ahead auction Wigi for more items ... some people wanna pay a lot so good for you BUT there are people which cares about getting favourite GOH for game they like and not to make "profit"

Honestly I paid a huge amount for wigfrid myself; I have felt the disdain for the high price myself. Everyone does who wanted something and paid for it what was required. I am not trying to extort people for profit for the Wigfrid posted in  my last post - that was an order I am following for a friend. I wouldn't trade my own for my life - this is his. He gave me something for exchange, so I'm doing a task for him. :/ 

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Mikeadatrix    2,031
27 minutes ago, t0panka said:

Why are you so extreme? I was talking about elegant items (1:1)

If you want to make profit then go ahead auction Wigi for more items ... some people wanna pay a lot so good for you BUT there are people which cares about getting favourite GOH for game they like and not to make "profit"

Extreme? That's my middle name. (sunglasses fall and crush my nose)

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JohnConnor    39

 

Quote

- so lets get everyone elegant items so everyone looks the same again? WUT? Actually it works really well now. Go to server with 10-15 people and there will be some with commons, some with GOH, some default, some ...

I am afraid I don't really get the idea of this. I mean, yes, elegant skin look cooler than T-shirts and players tend to wear distinguished and elegant instead of common. The solution to diversity is probably to release more elegant and distinguished stuff instead of prohibiting users from having them. I mean, let's assume that 80% of players do not have elegant skins so far and have classy clothes at best, do you see people wearing the same classy clothes? And if they do, would that, others wearing the same clothes that are classy and less cooler than your elegant, bother you?

Quote

- we need more "head" skins, "body parts", "item skins" and NOT easier way to give it to everyone right? Also lets make "walking cane skin" a reality! .)

Again, why not easier way for these cool stuff available to more people? Actually, if I remember correctly, you have like more than 10 elegant skins, so I cant help but think that you are saying this because you have the elegants and I assume you get them by key/dollar, so you just want to look prior to others either in-game or just to show-off the skins in your inventory? Also, since you paid quite a lot for the elegant skins, you are worried that if the new trading inn makes it easy for everyone to get elegant skins, your elegant skins will be worth nothing and you look no cooler than others?

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JoeW    26,252

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

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Mikeadatrix    2,031
31 minutes ago, gihhhhh said:

I kinda agree with this topic; but I can't deny that it's awesome to get nice amounts of money for them.

Don't know how to reply to this. Annoyed and agreeing..... Welp I'm confused.

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Mikeadatrix    2,031
5 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

Uh oh... This isn't gonna be good in anyway.... It's like there will be no upsides to the new update....

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Auth    9,586
14 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

Trade Inn marks the death of "fair" trades. Ladies and gentlemen, get your distinguished and elegant items while you still can, before they fly off into stupid rich land. Steam does show the price people have set, and most people want as high as they can get, so someone's going to put an elegant up for $300, and everyone will follow. With the Trade Inn not featuring these "high tier items", this buffs them to Incredibly preposterously uncommon, and people that own these are going to have a hell of a killing economics wise, despite them dropping for free.

 

JoeW, in case you haven't been reading, and I don't really like calling anyone out on this, but traders and sellers are not nice and fair people. It may settle down, yes, after new items are released and a huge time period has gone by, which makes the items "worthless". The solution isn't a market, that screws normal trading over BIG TIME. The solution is adding a fair system, but not in the 1:1 system that was talked about, that makes trading pointless. This sort of thing is incredibly hard to balance out, I know, but please consider it all. It seems you're really caving against the commoner, (Get it?) meaning that if you don't ever get a good drop, well, you're plum out of luck, because nobody wants that useless spiffy they can create for some common items, they want the $300 elegant!

 

Of course, you could be doing this to get on Gaben's Good Side, seeing as all market transactions have a tax for steam (and you guys of course, but you'd never do a shameless pry for money.... right?) and I suppose that's fair. I mean, I wouldn't want to get on Lord Newell's Bad Side.

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Mikeadatrix    2,031
1 minute ago, Weirdobob said:

Trade Inn marks the death of "fair" trades. Ladies and gentlemen, get your distinguished and elegant items while you still can, before they fly off into stupid rich land. Steam does show the price people have set, and most people want as high as they can get, so someone's going to put an elegant up for $300, and everyone will follow. With the Trade Inn not featuring these "high tier items", this buffs them to Incredibly preposterously uncommon, and people that own these are going to have a hell of a killing economics wise, despite them dropping for free.

 

JoeW, in case you haven't been reading, and I don't really like calling anyone out on this, but traders and sellers are not nice and fair people. It may settle down, yes, after new items are released and a huge time period has gone by, which makes the items "worthless". The solution isn't a market, that screws normal trading over BIG TIME. The solution is adding a fair system, but not in the 1:1 system that was talked about, that makes trading pointless. This sort of thing is incredibly hard to balance out, I know, but please consider it all. It seems you're really caving against the commoner, (Get it?) meaning that if you don't ever get a good drop, well, you're plum out of luck, because nobody wants that useless spiffy they can create for some common items, they want the $300 elegant!

YES!!!! PLEASE any dev out there don't let this game become TF2 or CS:GO!!! SKINS SHOULD BE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE!!!

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GiddyGuy    7,585
28 minutes ago, JoeW said:

you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy

Welp looks like no one will be using the trade inn...Cause you know spiffy ain't worth much... :/

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ItsPizzaTime    836
2 hours ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

So instead of having a bunch of Commons I'll never use now I'll have a bunch of spiffys I'll never use that will be sold for pennies in comparison to items like distinguished and elegant, which can only be obtained through luck (and will probably be worth even more than they are now.)

 

Edit: fixed wording

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GiddyGuy    7,585
9 minutes ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

So now instead of a bunch of having a bunch of Commons I'll never use now I'll have a bunch of spiffys I'll never use and will be sold for pennies in comparison to items like distinguished and elegant which can only be obtained through luck (and will probably be worth even more than they are now.)

I love how everyone was excited about this when we first saw the "Trade inn" in the "collection tab" Then @JoeW tells us it's a useless feature. :/

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False    24
1 hour ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

I found out that Celophone anticipated almost the exact same thing a while back at this post:

 

Coincidence?

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leonseye    805
5 hours ago, thegreatmanagement said:

The thing is though, we actually all don't get all same skins though. There is an intrinsic difference between a skin that's more commonly given than with a skin that is given at a very low drop rate. Based on probability, that's what's giving them their jacked up  value. (that and honestly us traders and buyers purport this trend too - there are multiple parties and factors involved here) It's just a designed implementation that they also are given a higher name value and special artwork in addition to its assigned probability.

So what you are saying here is that every single DST player does NOT have the same chances at getting the same skins?

Because all I'm reading is that "some skins are rare and are given a higher value due to rarity", which is completely fine in my opinion.  Some will trade things to get that item for certain.

Or they can simply not trade anything and still have the exact same chances at finding the skin(s) they want absolutely for free.

I don't see the issue.

People are paying based on the perceived "value" of convenience, which has traditionally always been higher than simply waiting it out.

The thing is; in this system, waiting it out is a perfectly viable solution and NOBODY is forced to pay any kind of exorbitant "price" for their desired item.

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6 minutes ago, leonseye said:

So what you are saying here is that every single DST player does NOT have the same chances at getting the same skins?

Because all I'm reading is that "some skins are rare and are given a higher value due to rarity", which is completely fine in my opinion.  Some will trade things to get that item for certain.

Or they can simply not trade anything and still have the exact same chances at finding the skin(s) they want absolutely for free.

I don't see the issue.

People are paying based on the perceived "value" of convenience, which has traditionally always been higher than simply waiting it out.

The thing is; in this system, waiting it out is a perfectly viable solution and NOBODY is forced to pay any kind of exorbitant "price" for their desired item.

What I was trying to point out by that is that a random number generator, uncannily like its name, is random. Some players could get lots of upper items. Some might not get any - and some may not get any no matter how much they play. That randomness of the market is creating a huge power imbalance; basically, the barrier to getting an item you want is raised so high because of your unlikeliness to even get it. The skins are all rewarded based on chance too, not merit or skill, which means that there is no fair way to get better skins other than luck in game. 

The goal of skins is to give players something to spice up the game, introduce some individuality and style in the game play, not make exorbitant amounts of profit based on your luck over another player's luck and desires. The thing also is that yeah, you can have the exact same chance of finding the skin you want for absolutely free. But what people just end up getting the drops they want? If people really got the drops they want, would trading at such huge inequalities even exist? The same theoretical chance doesn't yield the same theoretical gain is what I am trying to say. The perceived trade convenience (now versus later) shouldn't be worth that huge of a margin; it's increasingly unfair and with the news of trade-inn and marketing, this could exponentially worsen beyond what it was already headed to. 

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Exhu    161
2 hours ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

And then all of my excitement for the Trade Inn suddenly, completely died. Great.

So what you're telling me is I'm stuck with a ton of dupe items I can't get rid of.

 

Oh wait, I can make them spiffies. Which I already own all of. And have dupes of. The only spiffy item I even care about is the brown trench coat *facepalm*

 

Did I mention that I also think making items marketable is a HORRIBLE idea? So much for me ever trading for items higher than spiffy, people are going to want nothing but money for them. So basically the market is going to get flooded by greedy sellers and the people who are trading for items they actually want but don't have the money to spend are SoL.

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Exhu    161
1 hour ago, GiddyGuy said:

I love how everyone was excited about this when we first saw the "Trade inn" in the "collection tab" Then @JoeW tells us it's a useless feature. :/

THIS, so much this

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ItsPizzaTime    836
33 minutes ago, thegreatmanagement said:

What I was trying to point out by that is that a random number generator, uncannily like its name, is random. Some players could get lots of upper items. Some might not get any - and some may not get any no matter how much they play. That randomness of the market is creating a huge power imbalance; basically, the barrier to getting an item you want is raised so high because of your unlikeliness to even get it. The skins are all rewarded based on chance too, not merit or skill, which means that there is no fair way to get better skins other than luck in game. 

The goal of skins is to give players something to spice up the game, introduce some individuality and style in the game play, not make exorbitant amounts of profit based on your luck over another player's luck and desires. The thing also is that yeah, you can have the exact same chance of finding the skin you want for absolutely free. But what people just end up getting the drops they want? If people really got the drops they want, would trading at such huge inequalities even exist? The same theoretical chance doesn't yield the same theoretical gain is what I am trying to say. The perceived trade convenience (now versus later) shouldn't be worth that huge of a margin; it's increasingly unfair and with the news of trade-inn and marketing, this could exponentially worsen beyond what it was already headed to. 

What makes me frustrated is that this whole idea was sparked from the issue that people are getting way too many duplicate commons, but because of the implementation of the steam market into the equation and the fact that trading up these items doesn't go past spiffy (basically meaning we now have a large amount of dupe spiffys rather than commons) makes me wonder if this isn't a way for klei to get in on -

2 hours ago, Weirdobob said:

Of course, you could be doing this to get on Gaben's Good Side, seeing as all market transactions have a tax for steam (and you guys of course, but you'd never do a shameless pry for money.... right?) and I suppose that's fair. I mean, I wouldn't want to get on Lord Newell's Bad Side.

I want off this ride, now. I'm just glad that lady luck has given me what I've got because I won't be touching this new system besides using the trade inn convert my duplicates then calling it a day.

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leonseye    805
36 minutes ago, thegreatmanagement said:

The perceived trade convenience (now versus later) shouldn't be worth that huge of a margin; it's increasingly unfair and with the news of trade-inn and marketing, this could exponentially worsen beyond what it was already headed to. 

That's really only your opinion, and if it isn't worth that much to you, then... don't pay that margin?  The only driving factor in this "market" is the fact that people feel that they are worth that margin.

There is absolutely nothing "unfair" about a system that only makes it more convenient to get items that you have the exact same chances as everyone else at getting.

This entire thread is basically the OP telling others that items aren't worth this much to him, so they shouldn't be worth this much to anyone else either.  That's... not how value works.

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Exhu    161
4 minutes ago, leonseye said:

That's really only your opinion, and if it isn't worth that much to you, then... don't pay that margin?  The only driving factor in this "market" is the fact that people feel that they are worth that margin.

There is absolutely nothing "unfair" about a system that only makes it more convenient to get items that you have the exact same chances as everyone else at getting.

This entire thread is basically the OP telling others that items aren't worth this much to him, so they shouldn't be worth this much to anyone else either.  That's... not how value works.

So considering the number of people arguing that they don't like what Joe posted, vs the one person saying they are for it... it would seem that if Klei chooses to stay this course, they will be catering to the needs and wants of the few instead of the many, all so that certain people can feel "special" for having rarer skins.

C'mon Klei, please don't give me a reason to stop loving you as a company.

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2 minutes ago, leonseye said:

That's really only your opinion, and if it isn't worth that much to you, then... don't pay that margin?  The only driving factor in this "market" is the fact that people feel that they are worth that margin.

There is absolutely nothing "unfair" about a system that only makes it more convenient to get items that you have the exact same chances as everyone else at getting.

This entire thread is basically the OP telling others that items aren't worth this much to him, so they shouldn't be worth this much to anyone else either.  That's... not how value works.

But then you lose out on the point of the skins introduction - people enjoying a new feature of the game. That barrier means exactly that many people don't get to enjoy a game because of something highly unfair - not having as much money as someone else to spend on a game. Even if it is based on chance, that's no excuse to tell someone why they have no items they like. The point of trading is to try to help people get what they want, and if they can no longer do that, where is the tact? Mikeadatrix isn't just ranting about how those items aren't worth so much to him, he's pointing out something you may or may not have missed: this is monetizing a free system unfairly for unfair gains and losses all over the place. 

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leonseye    805
9 minutes ago, Exhu said:

So considering the number of people arguing that they don't like what Joe posted, vs the one person saying they are for it... it would seem that if Klei chooses to stay this course, they will be catering to the needs and wants of the few instead of the many.

C'mon Klei, please don't give me a reason to stop loving you as a company.

The "number of people arguing that they don't like what Joe posted" so far is 6.  I think it would be silly to base their decisions of the game on what 6 people said in a forum thread, which is already a teeny-tiny subsect of the player base.

You are not "many".  You are 6 people.

6 minutes ago, thegreatmanagement said:

But then you lose out on the point of the skins introduction - people enjoying a new feature of the game. That barrier means exactly that many people don't get to enjoy a game because of something highly unfair

Explain to me how people will no longer be able to receive skins as drops from playing the game and customize their character?

Explain to me how these skins received from playing are not still absolutely free to everyone?

Because what you're talking about does not impede the skins feature in any way, shape, or form.  There is nothing unfair about it.

Rare skin drops are clearly intended to remain rare, that's why they are... y'know, rare.  And when you get one, whether through playing the game or trading, you can at least feel somewhat special for having one.

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Gingerbread    324
3 hours ago, JoeW said:

Yeah, We have many of these same thoughts. When the Trade Inn is added, you will be able to trade 9 of an item for an item the next tier above it, up to Spiffy -- You will not be able to trade for distinguished or elegant items. Elegant and Distinguished items are meant to be rare and special and we aim to keep it that way. 

In addition to that, we will be turning on marketability for items so that you can choose to sell them on the steam market rather than use them to trade up through the Trade Inn. At first, some people are going to sell too high, and some people are going to sell too low, but then things will even out as the community decides what the items are worth to them. This will allow people to better understand the value of the items that they have and let's players have more choices for how they can get different items. 

Then I don't think it is a good thing to add trade inn. you should fix more bugs instead of wasting your time on trade inn. Probably this game will also turn into csgo where you will have $1000 item (as it is going to be more valuable items than just distinguished and elegant). I don't really understand the idea of making it marketable. You guys said they are not going to be marketable and now you changed your mind?

Maybe more fair system for trade inn should be implemented instead of enabling better items to be marketable. Maybe a system that will make u play the game about 5 months to get an elegant trade opportunity (just opportunity so you can use ur items to trade after certain amount of game hours lets say once in 500x hours or another thing after having new 300 items in total for example)(through trade inn not via drops) or something like that. But making them marketable is just another concept man. I don't wanna see where base game is 20 bucks and a cosmetics will be only $999. Up to today, I thought Klei does not really care about money and you have proven it with 5 bucks SW DLC and many more but this last post of you made me think that klei is turning into a different kind of company...

I am really disappointed about this solution.

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Exhu    161
Just now, leonseye said:

The "number of people arguing that they don't like what Joe posted" so far is 6.  I think it would be silly to base their decisions of the game on what 6 people said in a forum thread, which is already a teeny-tiny subsect of the player base.

You are not "many".  You are 6 people.

Several of these "six" people are regular posters who have been really active in the forums and actually a 6:1 ratio is a pretty big difference. Considering there probably aren't too many people who have even read through the thread and seen Joe's post, I'd say that's a pretty big reaction.

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