An Update on Don’t Starve

[Spazmatic]

I'd still love MacTusk mounting a Deerclops which shoots Krampi in your general direction which would automatically attack you. Yes, this could be in the DLC. Some potential crazy shenenigans like this or similar ideas, I like.

[Good_Smile]

Cool. I support everything I've read.

Nothing cool

[Amkar]

Just to clarify: there's still going to be some content in the remaining patches - just not as much as some of the earlier patches. For example, Maxwell didn't get his rework in the SNP update. The first level of caves still needs some love. I would also consider controller support to be content - it's a lot of work on our end, at any rate.

 

So, what kind of updates will they be? About the size of Hungry for your Hunger? Smaller? Still, I'm glad to hear Maxwell isn't forgotten!

[tehMugwump]

Myself, I wonder if future DLC will break mods like regular update have.

[Kittiko]

Why not just add a new season or the lava stuff as DLC later? o.o

[ARamblingSpider]

I'd still love MacTusk mounting a Deerclops which shoots Krampi in your general direction which would automatically attack you. Yes, this could be in the DLC. Some potential crazy shenenigans like this or similar ideas, I like.

Then this should be interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvGpyun9e80&feature=player_embedded

 

[RaphielDrake]

Fair enough but I kind of need clarification on a couple of things. The lava level; is it shelved or scrapped? There is a major distinction there.

 

Also, is there any plans to conclude the story encountered in Adventure Mode?

[donotdoit]

Soo... that steam work shop isn't coming anytime soon if ever now? I have to say I am disappointed with the announcement.

[poldur]

Just stay relayed, the're just in the beta phase with the work shop so they still have some work with it.

[RaphielDrake]

Well chrome says they have 500K users so that means a minimal 500K sales.

 

Which if you only take that number into account adds up to just over £5000000 or $7823500. Then again there is wages, equipment, software, investment, etc. You still end up with quite the profit though. 

 

Personally I'm indifferent. Yes the previous content has been free but its all essentially been to finish an unfinished game. If they want to release more content as DLC ontop of that well that is their right. Theres nothing wrong with simply wanting more money for more work. I'd just prefer it if we put the lava level and the heatwaves aside for it. They were good ideas and I doubt anyone would object to paying for them, within reason.

[jbeetle]

I'd just prefer it if we put the lava level and the heatwaves aside for it. They were good ideas and I doubt anyone would object to paying for them, within reason.

I wouldn't object to paying for them, but of course we don't have the whole picture. If they have a vision that essentially means heatwave and lava level are unimportant compared to that, well, I have to trust that's true.

[Estel]

I'm the only one, who is going to immediately opt-out from payware DLC? I hate the idea, from the deep of my heart. Call me crazy, but I would preffer to pay 2x or 3x more for a game form beginning, then, have content streamlined, instead of DLC crap. I can see, already, upcoming mess of mod's comaptibility issues, community resources spliting, etc.I really hoped it won't be coming to "Don't Starve"./Estel

[simplex]

I'm the only one, who is going to immediately opt-out from payware DLC? I hate the idea, from the deep of my heart. Call me crazy, but I would preffer to pay 2x or 3x more for a game form beginning, then, have content streamlined, instead of DLC crap. I can see, already, upcoming mess of mod's comaptibility issues, community resources spliting, etc.I really hoped it won't be coming to "Don't Starve"./Estel

I'm not a fan of DLC either. And I agree with all your points.But I honestly don't know what other approach Klei could take to keep supporting the game.

[SVGK]

so no fire caves?, even in the future DLC?, YES, if lava cave elements were to be added, i would want them as a biome in the currently very VERY bland, empty cave levels that already exist.

[Ellthan]

Sounds nice.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Ellthan

[Finvara]

I like the sound of DLC. The longevity it adds to games both in my interest and in the ability of developers to support the games I'm interested in, that's just a fantastic thing.

[Estel]

I'm not a fan of DLC either. And I agree with all your points.

But I honestly don't know what other approach Klei could take to keep supporting the game.

A "contract" with community - fundraiser, through kickstarter or even without any middle-man, with set target. If it's reached, we're giving another 6 months of guaranteed updates...

This way, we wouldn't end up with n versions of game, each incompatible with others, where n is number of DLCs released

---

Now, a little non-merit argument from my side, but it is so strong feeling, that I just can't pretend it doesnt exist - all those crappy DLC business is *much* too mainstream for my taste. You know, the higher standards you expect (rightly or not) from indie devs. Now, id they start doing same thing as [imperial march] EA [/imperial march], I feel a little... Cheaten? Sure, it's silly, as they can do whatever they want with their product, but I can't help feeling it that way.

Of course, this is veyr subjective thing, and not nearly as important as merit arguments, presented before. But, we can talk until our tongue dries - it's already settled, and I'm pretty sure Klei started sorting things out in sake for DLC (like, throwing some ideas/unfinished code into "reserved for DLC" basket) already. *sad face*.

/Estel

[Finvara]

A "contract" with community - fundraiser, through kickstarter or even without any middle-man, with set target. If it's reached, we're giving another 6 months of guaranteed updates...This way, we wouldn't end up with n versions of game, each incompatible with others, where n is number of DLCs released ---Now, a little non-merit argument from my side, but it is so strong feeling, that I just can't pretend it doesnt exist - all those crappy DLC business is *much* too mainstream for my taste. You know, the higher standards you expect (rightly or not) from indie devs. Now, id they start doing same thing as [imperial march] EA [/imperial march], I feel a little... Cheaten? Sure, it's silly, as they can do whatever they want with their product, but I can't help feeling it that way.Of course, this is veyr subjective thing, and not nearly as important as merit arguments, presented before. But, we can talk until our tongue dries - it's already settled, and I'm pretty sure Klei started sorting things out in sake for DLC (like, throwing some ideas/unfinished code into "reserved for DLC" basket) already. *sad face*./Estel

I'm not sure I can touch on every point you brought up, but let me see what I can do.

-Developers have Bill's toupe' like everybody else. That part we all understand, and I won't pretend that you don't already know that, nor will I talk down to you on the topic. We're both clear on that.

-A kickstarter campaign is a risk that takes a significant investment of time and effort. It's less of a risk than creating a new game, but more of a risk than creating DLC for a game that is widespread, popular, and still in the public's memory. Businesses try to limit risk as a rule, really, because they're gambling with the security of people's salaries. 

-Free Content is lovely, and welcome, and wonderful, but there's no reason to imagine that it has to stop just because DLC also exists. Most long-term heavy hitting games have their support development working on bugs, optimization, and incidental content additions (holiday stuff, special events, something cool that isn't big) while a separate team develops major content for the game in the form of DLC. Games that focus exclusively on free content tend to go the way of Glitch, sad as it sounds.

-The idea that something can be too "mainstream" is questionable. There's value to innovation, certainly, but when you say something is "too mainstream" what you're saying is that you're eschewing a successful idea because it caught on. That doesn't sound productive, just kind of snobbish.

-As for unfinished features getting "chucked in the DLC basket" being a thing or not, consider: If a feature is going to take more than 100 hours of work to create and troubleshoot thoroughly enough to release as a beta, can you justify spending those resources as a small company? For free? Now how about if those 100 hours of labor are generating a product that will produce revenue? Now it's sounding more like a feature that will see the light of day, isn't it? 

 

Many times, this is more a question of understanding why a choice was made, rather than agreeing with it or disagreeing.

[Captiva]

Saying "too mainstream" is not snobbish... He probably is saying they are making a kind of money grab. Which is all EA ever does anymore.

 

Everything that is good in life or video games is not done for money...

If these Devs originally did this all for money, then the game would suck. They clearly had a vision for a good game and *hoped it would make money, but it took 75% passion and creativity to make it good, and 25% money. While I understand Money is a factor in any business, Nobody wants to see Don't Starve go the direction of just being all about the money.

 

I also think that a lot of people were excited and looking forward to seeing what the game would become with still much content not yet put in, only to be told you now need to pay more money, and it might not even be what you were wanting in the first place.

 

Don't Starve would not be the game it is today without the community, and probably not the same success either. And almost for sure would not even exist if people had not forked out money in hopes the game would become something great, and had faith in the developers.

 

Its always easy to look back on accomplishments and forget the people that helped you make it happen... It happens everyday.

 

Money is not the driving force behind anything great in this world... It is a never ending cycle of greed that ruins everything it touches.

[Finvara]

Saying "too mainstream" is not snobbish... He probably is saying they are making a kind of money grab. Which is all EA ever does anymore.

 

Everything that is good in life or video games is not done for money...

If these Devs originally did this all for money, then the game would suck. They clearly had a vision for a good game and *hoped it would make money, but it took 75% passion and creativity to make it good, and 25% money. While I understand Money is a factor in any business, Nobody wants to see Don't Starve go the direction of just being all about the money.

 

I also think that a lot of people were excited and looking forward to seeing what the game would become with still much content not yet put in, only to be told you now need to pay more money, and it might not even be what you were wanting in the first place.

 

Don't Starve would not be the game it is today without the community, and probably not the same success either. And almost for sure would not even exist if people had not forked out money in hopes the game would become something great, and had faith in the developers.

 

Its always easy to look back on accomplishments and forget the people that helped you make it happen... It happens everyday.

 

Money is not the driving force behind anything great in this world... It is a never ending cycle of greed that ruins everything it touches.

I think you may be conflating a few things about running a stable business vs running a profit-hungry corporation. 

-EA isn't here, last I checked, in any official capacity. Not any more than Haliburton is here.  Neither belong in this discussion about Klei.

-Rather than try to break down your point, I want to take a different approach. Here is one of my favorite twitter feeds. https://twitter.com/forexposure_txt  Originally it was suggested to me by an artist friend, but the concept applies across industries.

 

I would challenge you to have a good long read, and ask yourself if you agree with the people being quoted in the text. If you do, it might be time to have some tea and re-examine your views.

[Captiva]

I read some of them... Still not 100% what you are getting at.

 

I am curious what you think of the idea of developers making Mods a key part of development strategy? Essentially supporting and on some instances encouraging the community to work for FREE to make games they already paid for better.

 

People at one point took it upon themselves to add things they wanted and shared those additions, but now developers are making this part of their strategy and in the case of Don't Starve, directly influenced the decision to stop adding new content to the game, so others could make stuff on their own time for free for their game.

 

So why should the community pay for a game, and then work for free to add stuff to it? 

A big part of this answer lies in the fact that these people have a passion for the game and want to improve it and share that with others.... NOTHING to do with money, only passion.

 

But what of the developers? How can you defend them for not wanting to add more content to the game without charging for it, but at the same time they are actively encouraging people to do just that, work for free, by offering support and now dropping content to facilitate mods.

 

*Also although I see this discussion as relevant to the announcement, Out of respect for not cluttering up this topic, if you want to have a discussion about this in any further length you should just PM me.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Captiva

[taciturn]

Still have lua tooth trap crashes :/

[taciturn]

(taking my moderator hat off....)Walk on over to the Cube World forums if you want to see how NOT to run an indie game.  First thing you'll notice is their forums have been locked for a month and the last 'tweet' from the (one) dev was 23 days ago. No timeline for development, no communication. Reddit is turning into a lynching mob over Cube World. I think the money spent for DS has already paid for itself a few times over.  The devs can't working for nothing just to keep giving out updates.  You make your best guess at the beginning how things will be done and then you change as needed when reality sets in. Don't know about you, but I've haven't gotten so much use out of a game since Minecraft.  And that's saying a lot.

Amen. Hit 180 hours last night. God, I need help! You guys don't know how good you have it. I seriously hope that Klei love their work and earn decent money. They rank as the most tightly run, professional and friendly game company I've been a customer with since, like forever! You guys don't know how good you have it!

[Estel]

I absolutely agree (and understand) that Klei can't work for the game infinitely, just because customers/supporters bought it once (or few times, like some of us did, on few platforms - just to show support). Everyone have own bills to pay, as do I.

 

Now, the discussion, as I see it, is "if DLC is best way to achieve, what they want to achieve". We need to consider, that Klei is putting much effort into making modding one of game foundaments for a long-run (rightly so!). Now, in my opinion, DLCs are completely counter-productive for that goal - it fragments community, modders, create compatibility problems, etc.

 

Now, fundraiser campaing, while perceived as "more risky", have few benefits. First, lets debuster myth about that "risky" thing by simple comparision:

 

a) In DLC, you first invest your time, create final product, *then* start to sell it. At this point, either people buy it, or not (or not enough of them do) - you already invested 100%, without being sure, that it will pay back. This is what some call "less risky"? Really?

 

b) In fundraiser, you first check your support practically (by gathering funds 'till set goal, and goiven timeline), then, you start actually investing time. if you have faith in your supporters, you may start some work during fundraising, but it's never close to 100% time investment, like in DLC. If fundraiser fail, you may tunnel your time into other projects. If it works out, you work with mind at peace, as you have already secured your money goal.

 

Now, about pros of fundraiser re Don't Starce case:

 

1. First and foremost, avoiding community fragmentation. Mentioned so many times, that i'm sure no one is in doubt, how many times better it is to have full compatibility between DS versions, for modding, and all other purposes.

 

2. Clear and fair relations with community, ressembling practices from Open Source world. You decide

 how much hours you want to spent working on DS in next 6 months, multiply it by how much you want to earn per hour, and you have target sum. If community agrees that it's fair, donations reach fundraiser target, and everyone is happy. Not to mention, that people learn to value developer's work, too, by seeing first-hand how much time/money one need to spend on coding for such project.

 

It's worth mention, that such "contracts" work fine for years in Open Source world, with great results.

 

3. Avoiding business model (DLC) that was spoiled numerous times by greedy corporations, one that have highly negative psychological impact. Sure, it is by far less important point, but ashouldn't be ignored, too. You would be surprised how many people feel revolted, by even hearing "DLC". By using other alternative, you swap this "bad" business model with one from FOSS world, the latter having only psitive connotations.

---

 

As said earlier, it is only our chit-chat now, as Klei already decided upon DLC. I'm no one to judge them - it's their independent decision. It would really need to be *very*(very, very) great, to overcome my dislike for DLC and convince me to buy it - but, I'm just one, tiny supporter/ustomer, and "crowd" reaction seems to be positive. Time will tell, if it was good or bad decision (or something in between). Personally, I'm convinced, that there have been much better (and *safe*) alternative.

 

/Estel

 

// Edit

 

Sorry for possible typos - I've written this from mobile (yes, my dedication to DS is *that* big )

Edited August 22, 2013 by Estel

[RaphielDrake]

Well... I've killed the Ancient Guardian and thoroughly violated the ruins. Considering theres going to be no considerable additions from here on out I'm kind of at a loss of what to do next.

Would of been better if they'd made the Guardian respawn every few days but they didn't so... yeah... *sigh*