Next Shadow Maul nerf.

[Cruvimaster]

It's quite curious that no one is talking about this and many don't even know that this is going to happen soon.

Bat Bat steals 6.8 life and Shadow Maul steals 10.2 life.

Waiting to see how the item will be in the next patch.

[Nogard78]

I am waiting for that too, any day now. I wonder how much it is going to heal, personaly I am hoping for 1hp per hit at max level if not a little less.

[arubaro]

made no sense being able to heal like 40 health between enemy atacks

"but is a late game weapooon" so? shall we become invincible just because we keep playing? what would be the point if everything becomes easy?

[Maxil20]

I feel like ~2 HP per hit would be pretty sufficient? Perhaps 1.7 to be an even multiple of 3.4, which Klei likes to use for things like this (the bat bat is 6.8, and even the pre/post nerf versions of the maul are 17 and 10.2 respectively).

[Kwaik]

Maybe this would be considered a radical change 

But what about having it heal on kill? 

I get that this makes it useless against bosses which is kind of ironic considered it's empowered by killing bosses 

But life on hit is a mechanic thst doesn't really work well for this game

I don't think there's any good  way to balance this. 

The best suggestion I can make is to maybe have it have some kind of reverse celestial crown mechanic. Where everytime it heals you successfully recovering HP it drains a certain amount of sanity. 

IMO this is the only way to successfully make this work without the life on hit being pure trash (or potentially instead of having it drain sanity, everytime it heals you there's an XYZ % chance of summoning a hostile shadow creature) 

Neutering the heal on hit to a terrible amount isn't a fun solution (nerfing it a little is fine but making it like 1-2 a hit is crappy. I'd rather see a unique drawback, specifically around sanity or shadow creatures) 

 

Potentially have the life on hit increase the less sanity you have? And the maximum amount is when you are completely insane? 

I think  that's got solid potential, and when you're fully sane have it be a paltry 1-2 life on hit 

[nimzowitsch10]

honestly wish they got rid of the healing of this weapon and just gave it special abilities. Like an aoe slam attack

[arubaro]

26 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

But what about having it heal on kill? 

fits the theme

27 minutes ago, Kwaik said:

Potentially have the life on hit increase the less sanity you have? And the maximum amount is when you are completely insane? 

way more interesting than tons of flat healing

[Ridley]

I didn't know what the old health steal values were. I just know the sound it makes when I take another Moose Goose's life.

There were some changes I wanted that I didn't see in the patch notes. The Maul announces when it breaks, the scrapbook tells you it loses its progress when it breaks, rewording the scrapbook because I keep interpreting it as 4 levels requiring 12 bosses total, and maybe it gives you a warning when it is low on durability. If you are frugal with the repair kits and let your stuff break or get close to breaking before you repair, you might do that with the Maul before it ever levels. You end up killing three bosses and wondering if its bugged. In my case, I didn't even realize I let it break after it levelled and repaired it without thinking anything of it. When I noticed sometime later that my Maul lost its eyes, I thought it forgot my progress between shards or exiting the world. This was before I knew it lost its progress but it was still confusing and frustrating not knowing what happened.

I think the lifesteal should be strong but demand more in compensation. Higher sanity drain and hunger rates would shake up boss encounters by causing insanity more and using shadow creatures to sustain the Maul.

It is such a cool weapon that it's sad to see people just want the lifesteal eclipsed by the same old healing foods like jellybeans. If Bat Bat isn't making the cut at 6.8, why would this usually worse Shadow Reaper be used if it was healing 1 hp at a time? 

Really surprised the Maul is catching so much heat. I'd like to know what people's experiences with this weapon are.

[arubaro]

34 minutes ago, Ridley said:

If Bat Bat isn't making the cut at 6.8

batbat has low durability and cant be repaired by cheap kits... plus doesnt reach 50 damage (and ofc is far from almost 90 damage..) 

Still, is a weapon i consider many times even outside of wormwood because you have a lot of healing that never spoil in one slot

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, arubaro said:

(and ofc is far from almost 90 damage..) 

it's not almost, it's 92 at max level with max ramp

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

an even multiple of 3.4, which Klei likes to use for things like this

because they multiply it off of spear damage like weapon damage values (34 * 1.25 = 42.5, 34 * 1.5 = 51, 34 * 1.75 = 59.5, 34 * 2 = 68 etc.)

[Waywarbler]

1 hour ago, Kwaik said:

Maybe this would be considered a radical change 

But what about having it heal on kill? 

I get that this makes it useless against bosses which is kind of ironic considered it's empowered by killing bosses 

I kinda like that idea. Maybe it could be 1/20th of the enemy's health restored as health? So something like a spider would restore 5 health, and then a giant would basically fully restore your health after you've defeated it.

[Ohan]

At the end of the day its much easier to make stacks of healing food than to get the maul, level it up and keep it fed/prevent it from losing levels. 

Higher healing than batbat doesnt seem very problematic to me but combining it with the highest potential damage does. 

It should be either one or the other no?
 

otherwise it just makes the reaper obsolete as a weapon. Which is insane considering how new the reaper is. 

[Maxil20]

4 minutes ago, Ohan said:

otherwise it just makes the reaper obsolete as a weapon. Which is insane considering how new the reaper is. 

I personally don’t think it’s super bad to the point it renders the reaper obsolete. While the maul does do more damage than the reaper when maxed, it’s not by that much, and the repear doesn’t require a maintenance upkeep like the maul does or isn’t completely drained when it breaks.

[Ohan]

26 minutes ago, Maxil20 said:

I personally don’t think it’s super bad to the point it renders the reaper obsolete. While the maul does do more damage than the reaper when maxed, it’s not by that much, and the repear doesn’t require a maintenance upkeep like the maul does or isn’t completely drained when it breaks.

Yeah reaper doesnt have the hunger upkeep but if you’re mainly playing off of void cowl i see no reason not to replace the reaper with the maul once uve upgraded it. 

u have to go out of ur way to smack some spiders or whatever every few days if ur doing no combat at all but in exchange for that u no longer need to think about healing food ever. 

it has not literally completely replaced the reaper just by virtue of its more expensive recipe and the fact that there will be people who dont want to worry about the upkeep but id prefer if they overlapped a lot less. 

 

[Cruvimaster]

What makes Shadow Maul interesting is the combination of damage and healing. If healing becomes irrelevant after the next update that will come soon, it makes more sense to use Shadow Reaper (which deals more damage, by the way).

Overall, Brightshade Sword is already better than Shadow Reaper.

The first reason is that it is much easier to get the ingredients to repair the weapon (mining and killing plants on the surface). The second is that Brightshade Helm is much superior to Void Cowl.

If Maul becomes equal or worse than Reaper, people will prefer to continue using Brightshade Sword (since it will be the best of the 3 for almost all characters).

[MasterDos]

It would be great to make the reaper a weapon that hits an area in front of the player. Then there would be a point in using it and the reaper would not become "obsolete" considering how recently it appeared)
It seems to me that mowing down enemies in a certain radius in front of you with the reaper would be the best solution

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Cruvimaster said:

The first reason is that it is much easier to get the ingredients to repair the weapon (mining and killing plants on the surface). The second is that Brightshade Helm is much superior to Void Cowl

Funny enough, the BS helmet needs more nerfs than the maul

[Frosty_Mentos]

I can confidently say that the heal reduces the stress of needing to get healing foods greatly. It's powerful onhit, basically I rarely ever run out of health with that weapon alone. I really like it but also rip relevance to food.

Unless there would be ways for enemies to reduce player healing or lose out on max HP, I don't see why I would even need to consider healing foods from there on out.

[cropo]

By the time you get it you have already conquered healing; the bearger bin can keep your stack of dragonpies fresh for eternity. You can now preload stacks at a time in the new icker preserves to swap out whenever necessary; you will have honey-poultices if you were focusing on that which do not expire and have a high stack count, and a near-infinite supply of spiced jellybeans that you can't even find room to store because of how abundant they will be at that point.

I am against a shadow maul nerf, you've already dealt with food, you've already sat there for 30 minutes cooking your dragonpies, is that really a funner alternative to having an extra healstick that requires a bit of maintenence every now and then?

You ask me I still think the Gloomerang is way better than this thing in the sense that it trivializes a lot of challenges the player is supposed to deal with, challenges that are still something you have to contend with post-rifts.

[arubaro]

58 minutes ago, cropo said:

By the time you get it you have already conquered healing; the bearger bin can keep your stack of dragonpies fresh for eternity. You can now preload stacks at a time in the new icker preserves to swap out whenever necessary; you will have honey-poultices if you were focusing on that which do not expire and have a high stack count, and a near-infinite supply of spiced jellybeans that you can't even find room to store because of how abundant they will be at that point.

I am against a shadow maul nerf, you've already dealt with food, you've already sat there for 30 minutes cooking your dragonpies, is that really a funner alternative to having an extra healstick that requires a bit of maintenence every now and then?

You ask me I still think the Gloomerang is way better than this thing in the sense that it trivializes a lot of challenges the player is supposed to deal with, challenges that are still something you have to contend with post-rifts.

So late game should be about ignoring mechanics because "we conquered them"? 

[cropo]

3 minutes ago, arubaro said:

So late game should be about ignoring mechanics because "we conquered them"? 

When said mechanic is standing around a circle of crock pots for 30 minutes making dragonpies over and over again? Yes. At least I am engaging in actual content to heal with a weapon, not conducting some kind of ritual where I throw a bunch of sticks and a fruit in a pot 40 times in a row.

When said mechanic has been presumably being interacted with for hours of pre-rift gameplay? Yes, post-game can stand to offer some solutions to monotonous mechanics that aren't a threat to the player anymore.

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, cropo said:

When said mechanic is standing around a circle of crock pots for 30 minutes making dragonpies over and over again? Yes. At least I am engaging in actual content to heal with a weapon, not conducting some kind of ritual where I throw a bunch of sticks and a fruit in a pot 40 times in a row.

When said mechanic has been presumably being interacted with for hours of pre-rift gameplay? Yes, post-game can stand to offer some solutions to monotonous mechanics that aren't a threat to the player anymore.

That makes no sense and isnt good for future updates.

What new food sources they will add if one of the stats is ignored?

You arent ignoring only crockpots, there are a lot of content which function is giving you food or healing

What about walking? Is monotonous, lets add a refuelable item that allows you to move where you place your mouse in the map

You also have beaten seasons, lets make a structure that removes globally any temperature change

Beaten FW means that you can beat any boss, lets add a stick that one shots prerift bosses

 

Making the gameplay simplier might appeal to you but for me is just a horrible design. Dst is more than simply killing stuff in god mode

[cropo]

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

What new food sources they will add if one of the stats is ignored?

Probably sanity ones, since this weapon drains sanity like a mofo when you use it?  You tell me, at this point what new food sources can they make that wouldn't be copying something else? They've already covered almost every possible metric and most of them go unused because they are redundant.

 

 

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

That makes no sense and isnt good for future updates

I would argue your side is bad for future updates, it prioritizes inconveniences that aren't an actual threat to the player but an investment of just standing around and producing an item that has a long cooking time over and over again; should future content be hindered in order to make this practice continue to stay relevant?

 

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

You arent ignoring only crockpots, there are a lot of content which function is giving you food or healing

All of which are obsoleted by dragonpies unless you're Wormwood or Wigfrid.

 

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

What about walking? Is monotonous, lets add a refuelable item that allows you to move where you place your mouse in the map

Like Wortox? But no, this is a false equivalency; you cannot apply this very same logic to every single mechanic in the game. Well, you could, but it would be incredibly petty to do so.  In this context I am specifically looking at the idea that this item somehow invalidates the methods of healing in this game, when previous options have already invalidated other options and the best-in-slot method of healing is extremely monotonous and doesn't require the player to be moving much at all period.

 

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

You also have beaten seasons, lets make a structure that removes globally any temperature change

We're kind of already getting that, and items with this kind of logic to them have already been in the game. But again I will repeat myself in that all the things that are being trivialized are not the same. Giving my a scythe to AOE harvest my giant fields is an entirely different thing than giving me a weapon that lets me attack 30 feet away from the enemy in complete safety. In this particular instance, the Maul should not be nerfed because it's not really doing anything other than invalidating standing around a bunch of crock pots for 30 minutes, has a maintenence requirement even if small, and lowers sanity fast if used as a crutch.

 

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Beaten FW means that you can beat any boss, lets add a stick that one shots prerift bosses

I will repeat myself yet again that this is a false equivalency; yet technically this is already partially something that happens. You get weapons that are simply better as you progress through the game, even in old DS. 

[Gashzer]

Nah, it's the latest game weapon we currently have and it has already been nerfed.

Maul is balanced by the need to actively maintain it.

[arubaro]

28 minutes ago, cropo said:

All of which are obsoleted by dragonpies unless you're Wormwood or Wigfrid.

 

maybe that is the key of why you dont like crockpots... dragonpies are awful and nobody with experience use them because of the time it takes to cook them. They dont make obsolete anything, more like the opposite, they are overshadowed by most healing sources

30 minutes ago, cropo said:

would argue your side is bad for future updates, it prioritizes inconveniences that aren't an actual threat to the player but an investment of just standing around and producing an item that has a long cooking time over and over again; should future content be hindered in order to make this practice continue to stay relevant?

health is a key mechanic, it shouldnt be removed by hitting with the most powerful weapon. I dont care about needing to kill a couple of bees every few days or needing to bundle it when there are not fights in a long time