Next Shadow Maul nerf.

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, arubaro said:

Well if someone cant see the difference i recommend them to play games like lost ark or genshing impact, they will have tons of fun

Non sequitur?

[cropo]

2 hours ago, arubaro said:

Well if someone cant see the difference i recommend them to play games like lost ark or genshing impact, they will have tons of fun

Is there a reason you talk crap about a random game whenever lauding Don't Starve as this sacred innovator of challenging ideas? I'm pretty sure it's always been you that does this. Someone suggests something and you'll bring up Terraria's progression as an example of boring baby design to dismiss it, or core keeper, or valheim; I guess now it's Jenshin Jimpact and Frost Spark, I wonder what game you'll bring up next topic.

The maul sucks. Reviving a beefalo, giving it a BiS saddle, or a weapon that does a very slight amount of damage over the reaper that requires 12 boss kills and needs to be fed and has a crappy healing ability that is a bigger detriment to your sanity than anything else. At this point I'd rather they just gutted the healing entirely in exchange for no sanity loss or a passive aura, Healing that little HP and losing that much sanity is a huge detriment to fighting. Literally better off just eating 2 dragonpies in a second to insta-heal all of your hp in a single go or spending like 3-4 seconds eating 2 pierogi although you might get hitstunned out of it.

[arubaro]

2 minutes ago, cropo said:

Someone suggests something and you'll bring up Terraria's progression as an example of boring baby design to dismiss it, or core keeper, or valheim

You might not notice but these 3 games are sandboxes like dst. If i dont like a recurrent design used in popular games i bring it up. Is easier for me, a non english speaker, explain what i don't like about sandbox lineal progression because, imo, if is a sandbox there should be total freedom to use items and to access zones

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

The maul sucks

Is the best weapon very close to the BS sword

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, arubaro said:

if is a sandbox there should be total freedom to use items and to access zones

In general, items in a game like for example Terraria have near-identical copies of their previous items with stronger effects.  If you have a spellbook that shoots a water stream, you'll get a stronger version that shoots a water stream that is yellow, goes longer, and lowers enemy defense. Mechanically, they are the same item, and a plethora of new and exciting items slowly get introduced to the player throughout that progression. You don't really become unable to "use" a weapon because there is a version of it that exists in every tier of progression, what does change is the complexity of bosses and their movesets, the areas and biomes you get to explore, etc. You're missing out on a ton of context here.

Core Keeper literally has a enhance feature that lets you upgrade lower-tier weapons to match current tier, so if you really like a set effect of a specific armor you can just buff it up to the current tier and keep using it, the biomes and areas you get to explore change drastically however which always introduces something new to the player that hasn't been done prior.

The other sandbox games you criticize usually has this to their own degrees as well.

 

 

11 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Is the best weapon very close to the BS sword

It's like comparing a sword that does 80 damage to a sword that does 85 damage but costs a dollar to swing each time, sure it's the "best" weapon but in the greater context of things, it kinda sucks. Especially when you can get a free revive for beefalo or the BiS saddle instead.

[arubaro]

4 minutes ago, cropo said:

In general, items in a game like for example Terraria have near-identical copies of their previous items with stronger effects.  If you have a spellbook that shoots a water stream, you'll get a stronger version that shoots a water stream that is yellow, goes longer, and lowers enemy defense. Mechanically, they are the same item, and a plethora of new and exciting items slowly get introduced to the player throughout that progression. You don't really become unable to "use" a weapon because there is a version of it that exists in every tier of progression, what does change is the complexity of bosses and their movesets, the areas and biomes you get to explore, etc. You're missing out on a ton of context here.

Core Keeper literally has a enhance feature that lets you upgrade lower-tier weapons to match current tier, so if you really like a set effect of a specific armor you can just buff it up to the current tier and keep using it, the biomes and areas you get to explore change drastically however which always introduces something new to the player that hasn't been done prior.

The other sandbox games you criticize usually has this to their own degrees as well.

 

 

It's like comparing a sword that does 80 damage to a sword that does 85 damage but costs a dollar to swing each time, sure it's the "best" weapon but in the greater context of things, it kinda sucks.

Is rpg progression in a game without narrative. It only makes early content stupidly easy, ironic in a game where the loot, even from bosses, is rng based

Core keeper enhance table was recently added and is the reason i played again that game. Still, the early biomes become so easy once you go throw the content

Imagine if in dst you could clean the ruins by one shotting clockworks in late game. Kills the fun of a sandbox 

6 minutes ago, cropo said:

It's like comparing a sword that does 80 damage to a sword that does 85 damage but costs a dollar to swing each time, sure it's the "best" weapon but in the greater context of things, it kinda sucks.

In the greater context of things i would nerf it futher

[cropo]

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

Imagine if in dst you could clean the ruins by one shotting clockworks in late game. Kills the fun of a sandbox 

Well in DST the ruins are one of the final areas in the game and there isn't too much after it; but if there was more content in general I don't think that'd be a big deal? You can't keep sucking the fun out of a biome ad-infinitum and expect the game to stay as fun as it used to be forever and that thought process can have adverse affects on the gaming experience by forever limiting the players potential to grow ingame and face tougher challenges. How do you keep making content for a game like that?

And even then in some of those games older biomes do scale properly with the player, the jungle in Terraria becomes an absolute hazardous challenge near the end of hardmode; so to go by your example of clearing the ruins it would be a different story if new enemies were introduced into the ruins to appropriately scale with the player which seems to be the direction Klei is trying to go in at the moment with the recently added nightmare creature, new weather hazards, etc.  I get that forumers still think it's easy enough to beat with their eyes closed, but that's not a commonly shared experience amongst the general playerbase.

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, cropo said:

Well in DST the ruins are one of the final areas in the game and there isn't too much after it; but if there was more content in general I don't think that'd be a big deal? You can't keep sucking the fun out of a biome ad-infinitum and expect the game to stay as fun as it used to be forever and that thought process can have adverse affects on the gaming experience by forever limiting the players potential to grow ingame and face tougher challenges. How do you keep making content for a game like that?

How? Like they always did. Also the fun in dst is that you can do stuff day 1. Ruins are the final area but people do it in autumn but, by doing it, you dont unlock level99 gear that lets you one shot enemies while not being damaged, you just unlock expensive but effective loot

There are room for many stuff to progress without making older stuff obsolet or a cake walk. See the icker preservers; how saltbox can work along with iceboxes; marble armor, log suit, thulecite suit and night armor being useful without overshadowing each other...

What makes dst special is that isnt developed like the rest of """sandboxes""" and to be able to do that they cant simply release items that are too damn good to the point of making future stuff hard to implement.  See BS helmet, how they are going to add a better helmet without going bananas with the stats or number of perks???

I know im a broken record but i dont want klei taking the easy, unispired and lazy route of "just C&P the same item with better numbers"

[cropo]

18 minutes ago, arubaro said:

How? Like they always did. Also the fun in dst is that you can do stuff day 1. Ruins are the final area but people do it in autumn but, by doing it, you dont unlock level99 gear that lets you one shot enemies while not being damaged, you just unlock expensive but effective loot

And how long do you think that can keep going? Over 10 years? Also did Klei truly intend for the ruins to be rushed day one or was that just a coincidence?

 

20 minutes ago, arubaro said:

There are room for many stuff to progress without making older stuff obsolet or a cake walk. See the icker preservers; how saltbox can work along with iceboxes; marble armor, log suit, thulecite suit and night armor being useful without overshadowing each other...

Salt-boxes are a side-grade, many sandbox games have this. It's not a unique feature of DST and your ideal content style of the game isn't a requirement for it. And unless you're playing as Wolfgang, most of the armors you listed are only used in specific convenient spots or fights; for a sandbox game that feels a bit scripted and not so different from the guided progression of other sandbox games, there also are options that completely overshadow a majority of armor ingame and existing items which have strictly-better upgrades like Piggieback > Krampus sack or Thulecite Crowns dominating a majority of the game.

 

 

25 minutes ago, arubaro said:

What makes dst special is that isnt developed like the rest of """sandboxes""" and to be able to do that they cant simply release items that are too damn good to the point of making future stuff hard to implement.  See BS helmet, how they are going to add a better helmet without going bananas with the stats or number of perks???

By introducing more complex and unique threats that aren't like previous stuff found ingame that still challenge the player. If we go from Deerclops to Fuelweaver, surely we can go from Fuelweaver to Charlie.

 

 

26 minutes ago, arubaro said:

I know im a broken record but i dont want klei taking the easy, unispired and lazy route of "just C&P the same item with better numbers"

But that's not a bad thing though; if a weapon has a unique mechanic or moveset that you're attached to it can scale properly with the rest of the game so it can evolve without stopping you from using a particular item you fancy. The bosses won't have to be designed assuming the player is wielding a hambat, they'll be designed assuming the player is wielding  the maul and could justifiably be made stronger or given mechanics that make it impossible to just stand and hold F, punish sanity loss more harshly than previous bosses, etc.

[HowlVoid]

Seems reasonable. Personally I wouldn't mind if it healed the same as the bat bat but it shouldn't be lower. The bat bat is an early game healing tool with its pros and drawbacks compared to food. 

So this being endgame and also serving as a viable weapon its already quite strong and the upgraded variant. Having stronger versions of something you enjoy is a great reward. 

[Arcwell]

Want to clarify this because it keeps coming up:

On 9/16/2024 at 3:26 PM, Ridley said:

rewording the scrapbook because I keep interpreting it as 4 levels requiring 12 bosses total

On 9/17/2024 at 8:38 AM, arubaro said:

12 bosses

4 hours ago, cropo said:

requires 12 boss kills

It requires 9 boss kills total, 3 for each tier (the starting tier does not require any boss kills to achieve).

[Ridley]

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Want to clarify this because it keeps coming up:

You quoted me even though I explained why I thought it was 12 bosses:

Quote

There were some changes I wanted that I didn't see in the patch notes... rewording the scrapbook because I keep interpreting it as 4 levels requiring 12 bosses total.

 

[Arcwell]

7 minutes ago, Ridley said:

You quoted me even though I explained why I thought it was 12 bosses:

Edited last post to include more context.

Sorry, I didn't interpret your message correctly the first time because I just saw 12 and no 9. I think that's where the other posts are getting it from, but again that's just my interpretation.

[arubaro]

32 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Want to clarify this because it keeps coming up:

It requires 9 boss kills total, 3 for each tier (the starting tier does not require any boss kills to achieve).

Right. I keep saying that and i actually was confused because when it got the 3 eyes i killed 3 more bosses just in case

9 bosses isnt a big of a deal, is fun and the reward is cool. There are a lot of bosses that are worth killing

3 hours ago, cropo said:

And how long do you think that can keep going? Over 10 years? Also did Klei truly intend for the ruins to be rushed day one or was that just a coincidence?

There are many stuff to add and they can add dangers that needs new solutions like they are doing with the rift

The good thing about biomes feeling empty, specially in the caves and sea, is that there are room for other 10 years of updates

3 hours ago, cropo said:

Salt-boxes are a side-grade, many sandbox games have this. It's not a unique feature of DST and your ideal content style of the game isn't a requirement for it. And unless you're playing as Wolfgang, most of the armors you listed are only used in specific convenient spots or fights; for a sandbox game that feels a bit scripted and not so different from the guided progression of other sandbox games, there also are options that completely overshadow a majority of armor ingame and existing items which have strictly-better upgrades like Piggieback > Krampus sack or Thulecite Crowns dominating a majority of the game

In other games, most of them,  you have a fridge and, at most, you unlock bigger fridges

How is scripted to chose armor based on your preference and resources avaraibles? I have killed bosses like,  werepig, BQ or DF with many different armor combinations and i think i have used every single armor except cookie cutter cap and grass suit for cleaning the ruins

What is scripted is "you reach new area so now you farm this ore with a different color to craft the same armor with different color "

3 hours ago, cropo said:

By introducing more complex and unique threats that aren't like previous stuff found ingame that still challenge the player. If we go from Deerclops to Fuelweaver, surely we can go from Fuelweaver to Charlie.

For sure. I wish they add more complex stuff but that doesnt mean it should be with just higher numbers... games, specially like this one, should reward knowledge and skill, not just checking what gear are you using

 

3 hours ago, cropo said:

Also did Klei truly intend for the ruins to be rushed day one or was that just a coincidence?

Idk but i know they seems to like rushing stuff. If you watch the vods from klei when they were developing hamlet you can see the devs showcasing stuff by rushing it day one like pugalisk

The thulecite cave plug from DS can be mined with a flint pickaxe so...

[00petar00]

21 hours ago, Ohan said:

It really is not..

With FW kill immediately spawning mimic chests now its not much effort at all to transform a heart. T3 rook is also basically a fat spider once u have the necessary speed.  MUCH easier than ur first spark ark. 

Yeah i just dont like that theres almost no reason to use the reaper as a weapon once the maul is leveled. The hunger drain is very manageable so its just better in every way in my eyes. 

if brightsmithy gets a tier2 melee weapon i hope it’ll be electric or something so the BS sword doesnt just get replaced too.

I don't know how you still believe that maul is better. Reaper is much cheaper to craft and you don't have to level it or maintain, healing is mediocre by the time I can get maul there is usually some sort of BQ farm or a character that is good vs BQ. Maul wouldn't be terrible without the negatives it has but currently with only 3.4 HP lifesteal but tanking your sanity it isn't worth trading sanity for health when you need both stats topped up to fight raid bosses. 

You don't get any benefit with current maul, all you need to do is swap your healing food for sanity food and you are in the same spot, so why not use reaper?

Maul needs to be buffed to match or 1-2 HP lifesteal more than batbat to be worth using with the sanity drain. If lifesteal is so overpowered scrap the idea and add 15-20 damage to the weapon. This is supposed to be spark ark equivalent craft in caves it should be superior to reaper. I know that klei has been avoiding adding damage and wants to keep it grounded because of Wolfgang and so that raid bosses are hard to fight after rift but that ship has sailed with all the rift gear we have currently. 

[cropo]

Exactly, the healing is an outright detriment because of the sanity cost associated with it. Just take out the healing entirely, doesn't even need a "buff" to compensate, the loss of the sanity drain would be enough of a buff as it is, it really is that bad.

[Cruvimaster]

57 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't know how you still believe that maul is better.

I also don't understand this view of Maul. Maul only adds approximately 4 more damage compared to the reaper (not relevant).

The 3.4 life steal is insignificant for a late game concept (several better ways to recover life), especially with an increased sanity penalty.

And if in combat you forget to recharge the item before it reaches 0%, you will lose all progress.

In terms of cost-benefit, reaper is superior to maul.

[00petar00]

26 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

I also don't understand this view of Maul. Maul only adds approximately 4 more damage compared to the reaper (not relevant).

The 3.4 life steal is insignificant for a late game concept (several better ways to recover life), especially with an increased sanity penalty.

And if in combat you forget to recharge the item before it reaches 0%, you will lose all progress.

In terms of cost-benefit, reaper is superior to maul.

What you have to consider is that you only get 4 damage more at max level and as you said it is very easy for it to reset but also you need to keep it bundled when you are not going to fight.

3.4 HP lifesteal wouldn't be bad If maul only had damage and lifesteal and no detriments to using it, the issue is that the lifesteal went from 17 HP to 3.4 and sanity drain is still there but also the punishment for not "feeding" the weapon is kept. 

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I don't know how you still believe that maul is better. Reaper is much cheaper to craft and you don't have to level it or maintain, healing is mediocre by the time I can get maul there is usually some sort of BQ farm or a character that is good vs BQ. Maul wouldn't be terrible without the negatives it has but currently with only 3.4 HP lifesteal but tanking your sanity it isn't worth trading sanity for health when you need both stats topped up to fight raid bosses. 

Why do you need sanity topped up to fight raid bosses..?

If you're using maul ur not using Enlightened crown in combat. As long as your sanity is higher than nightmare threshold it doesnt matter. And you can use the Void Robe to negate insanity auras if you want to be extra safe. 

Do you stop fighting bosses after you open shadow rifts? u only need to carry it on you and remember to smack bosses with it and it will level naturally as u continue to play. 

The hunger drain is extremely negligible. It will only start starving if you dont kill ANYTHING for 41 minutes or over 4 ingame days. Even butterflies count. 

3.4 might look little on paper but it counts for every single swing you make since its a main weapon.. it adds up very fast. 

You only lose sanity if you need to heal. If you're tanking every single hit then you might indeed go insane fast. I have never felt this to be as scary as you make it out to be. 

 

Are you not a self confessed die-hard Wanda player? if you're used to alarming clock and infinitely free healing then i can understand why the maul would look bad in your eyes.

 

48 minutes ago, cropo said:

Exactly, the healing is an outright detriment because of the sanity cost associated with it.

i really cant believe what you guys are saying. 

You've defeated AFW, battled the shadow rift enemies but 1.8 sanity per swing to heal only when you're hurt is an insurmountable downside to you guys??? 

 

I really dont want to imagine what you all would be saying about the dark sword if it was released today.. 

[cropo]

1 minute ago, Ohan said:

i really cant believe what you guys are saying. 

You've defeated AFW, battled the shadow rift enemies but 1.8 sanity per swing to heal only when you're hurt is an insurmountable downside to you guys??? 

Yes actually, especially if you're playing a character that only has 100 sanity. It is a huge pain in the butt to deal with compared to just eating a Dragonpie and using a reaper. Doing roughly 4 more damage and having to worry about it breaking, even if the chance is small, is an extra added layer of inconvenience to fights.

If you're going to say that such a pittance of HP adds up between hits, surely that also must mean that the opposite is true for the sanity penalty? Only sanity foods are slightly more annoying to farm than HP ones. Green Mushrooms are not crock pot dishes and can't be put in the bearger bin, and lower your HP when eating, so you will have to trigger the mauls healing if you use those. Cactus are alright, but they are immovable and cannot be mass-planted in a convenient formation; there are a lot of good options with honey dishes but taffy reduces HP as well and the Lureplant sanity food that uses honey(forgot the name) expires extremely fast so it is desynched with the spoil rate of your dragonpies(or pierogis if you really want to use those.)

It gets worse if you play Warly, who has even less access to sanity restoration.


It's not going to get you killed, but it is not a small and trivial thing; the healing however IS trivial because there is a plethora of food items that you would have farmed before opening rifts and is incredibly easy to mass-produce and spam. This item would literally be better off without the healing feature.

[Cruvimaster]

7 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

What you have to consider is that you only get 4 damage more at max level and as you said it is very easy for it to reset but also you need to keep it bundled when you are not going to fight.

3.4 HP lifesteal wouldn't be bad If maul only had damage and lifesteal and no detriments to using it, the issue is that the lifesteal went from 17 HP to 3.4 and sanity drain is still there but also the punishment for not "feeding" the weapon is kept. 

I like the two debuffs that Klei added.

The concept of a living weapon that needs to be fed with life from enemies really appeals to me.

The sacrifice of losing sanity also really appeals to me. Going insane by stealing life from enemies is a concept that I like.

Just nerfing the weapon from ~17 to 6.8 in life steal would be ideal in my opinion.

[00petar00]

2 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Why do you need sanity topped up to fight raid bosses..?

If you're using maul ur not using Enlightened crown in combat. As long as your sanity is higher than nightmare threshold it doesnt matter. And you can use the Void Robe to negate insanity auras if you want to be extra safe. 

Do you stop fighting bosses after you open shadow rifts? u only need to carry it on you and remember to smack bosses with it and it will level naturally as u continue to play. 

The hunger drain is extremely negligible. It will only start starving if you dont kill ANYTHING for 41 minutes or over 4 ingame days. Even butterflies count. 

3.4 might look little on paper but it counts for every single swing you make since its a main weapon.. it adds up very fast. 

You only lose sanity if you need to heal. If you're tanking every single hit then you might indeed go insane fast. I have never felt this to be as scary as you make it out to be.

I don't need to have sanity topped, but health is much easier to restore with jellybeans that I always get more than I can use. Banana bushes exist but they can't compare to jellybeans, so it is easier to restore health.

What is the point of 3.4 HP lifesteal when I lose sanity to compensate? This is supposed to be endgame weapon for shadow side but reaper is better as it has more damage with stacks and no downsides to using it.

I am not saying that it is in any way scary but health is easier to restore compared to sanity. Someone that is fighting bosses so often will kill BQ and get jellybeans so why bother with shadow maul?

6 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Are you not a self confessed die-hard Wanda player? if you're used to alarming clock and infinitely free healing then i can understand why the maul would look bad in your eyes.

I do play Wanda and won't use this weapon but that doesn't mean that I can't give feedback based on my experience with it. This actually benefits my arguments more because I am not biased since there's no way I'll use it. 

I don't see how you can say that I believe that maul is bad for me when there's no point to use it? I want lifesteal buffed which won't benefit Wanda at all.

8 minutes ago, Ohan said:

i really cant believe what you guys are saying. 

You've defeated AFW, battled the shadow rift enemies but 1.8 sanity per swing to heal only when you're hurt is an insurmountable downside to you guys??? 

 

I really dont want to imagine what you all would be saying about the dark sword if it was released today.. 

Dark sword is a joke after rifts. Have you seen someone use dark swords besides maybe from shadow pieces catapult/gunpowder farm?

1 minute ago, Cruvimaster said:

I like the two debuffs that Klei added.

The concept of a living weapon that needs to be fed with life from enemies really appeals to me.

The sacrifice of losing sanity also really appeals to me. Going insane by stealing life from enemies is a concept that I like.

Just nerfing the weapon from ~17 to 6.8 in life steal would be ideal in my opinion.

I completely agree with you here. I think that it would be sad for these downsides to be removed but If lifesteal is going to stay at 3.4 HP that needs to happen.

I would prefer for lifesteal to be buffed to 6-8 HP per hit because this weapon is really unique and we need more items like this.

[arubaro]

21 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I really dont want to imagine what you all would be saying about the dark sword if it was released today.. 

I can imagine...

People really dont want to make an effort when playing games, better expect the game to played by itself while rewarding you.

Is the same principle that Is making the phone videogames industry the most profitable 

I think people dont get what 3hp per hit means or they simply play so bad that they shouldn't be activating the rifts (and that is the problem of letting people beat fw without interacting with him)

[cropo]

3 minutes ago, arubaro said:

People really dont want to make an effort when playing games, better expect the game to played by itself while rewarding you.

Jesus christ enough with this crap already.

[arubaro]

1 minute ago, cropo said:

Jesus christ enough with this crap already.

Is a lie? 10 per hit is absurd, nothing hits you that hard or fast to counter that healing...barelly is possible with the current life steal but people just see a nerf and cry before testing because they had hope of having godmode implemented in the game

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Is a lie? 10 per hit is absurd, nothing hits you that hard or fast to counter that healing...barelly is possible with the current life steal but people just see a nerf and cry before testing because they had hope of having godmode implemented in the game

So again, just remove the lifesteal and do something else with the weapon. If the lifesteal needs to be nerfed to the point it can't compete with items that have been in the game since pretty much before RoG in Singleplayer existed then its addition to the weapon is a complete detriment. It does nothing but make the weapon worse; you could literally remove it and its associated sanity penalty and change nothing else about the weapon and it would be a better weapon.