Patience's Running Out.

[JoeW]

6 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I got into Don't Starve in 2017. I forget exactly when, but it was before A New Regin started and between Shipwrecked releasing and the Seas the Day update. And back then, I was sold Don't Starve as a game that wouldn't pull it's punches and that was inheritly hostile towards new players.  And though it stayed that way for a while, recent updates have definitly had a lot of focus on pulling the punches and making the onboarding experience easier for new players.

"was sold Don't Starve as a game that wouldn't pull it's punches"

I actually addressed this in my original reply that I thought better of. I'm not underselling things. I am trying not to have my words misinterpreted, because that's how this kind of thing goes some times. 

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/35989-dont-starve-together-multiplayer-alpha-officially-coming-summer-2014

We resisted a multiplayer game specifically because (and we said as much) it went against the idea of Don't Starve. Just by the nature of having more players, it was going to be a different experience. We argued this so much we had emotes for it
Discussion of it was literally banned from the forums.
 
But we kept getting asked. It was basically our biggest "problem" - we were consistently criticized for not listening or ignoring people. We tested our assumptions (as we do) and we saw that it was in fact fun enough to explore. However, it WAS and remains to be a different game. To accomplish this we would finish DS, complete what we aimed to do (without being informed of new ideas for multiplayer) and then offer a new game. So much so that we developed the game separately so single player game wouldn't be compromised by the decisions for multiplayer. 

Then later when the game was released for a LONG time, it was JUST Don't Starve but multiplayer. A New Reign was specifically to bring new content informed by the concept of a multiplayer game, and we moved forward.  

But the thing is, Don't Starve isn't actually a "difficult" game generally speaking. At least not in the traditional sense. It is if you're new. But if you know what you need to do, it's just a matter of doing it, generally. Or, at least that's the idea. 

HOWEVER - it can be seen as difficult. Compared to most other survival games out there, it's extremely difficult. Honestly, what other games out there are MORE difficult. Project Zomboid, almost certainly. But they are offering a different experience than us. 

Quote

And though it stayed that way for a while, recent updates have definitly had a lot of focus on pulling the punches and making the onboarding experience easier for new players.

Yep, that's what I am saying. 

Literally, it says as much in the roadmap, and it says why. Directly. 

And it's not just because it's for new players. It's because when you have a game you love and you bring your friend in, who doesn't get it - that sucks. It sucks that people think "lazy devs" because there are no achievements. It's not great when people think there is no content because they are expected to go find it themselves. 

Not because we're trying to appeal to the new group, but trying to deliver on the expectations of the people who WANT to enjoy our game. 

But this is what I am asking of you all. I am saying, look at the whole picture. Not just the now. We can only deliver on the NOW. and NOW is the roadmap. Like we promised. 

I think I can say this more plainly so that it's less ambiguous. You all better not make me regret this. =)

Many of you want the game to just generally be harder. But that's not great for everybody, to a lot of people it's more than difficult enough as it is. We'll likely be addressing the overall general challenge of the game for those looking for that in a future roadmap. That's not to say nothing will be difficult in THIS roadmap, just that it won't be an overarching start to finish balance shift on difficulty. 

8 minutes ago, BezKa said:

This will look really bad once people start taking it out of context.

Thanks. Although, I hope that it's understood that a game studio actively trying to keep a player playing for months and years and forever is not good behavior. Or at least, what they need to do to make that happen isn't great. 

It's one thing that a game is good enough to keep a person around for years because they love it. It's another thing to design around that idea. 

[Maxil20]

1 minute ago, JoeW said:

Then later when the game was released for a LONG time, it was JUST Don't Starve but multiplayer. A New Reign was specifically to bring new content informed by the concept of a multiplayer game, and we moved forward.  

Quick question on this (if you don’t mind me asking):

On an earlier thread, you mentioned DS was “done” with ROG as that wrapped up the inital gameplay loop. By comparison, was DST “done” with ANR as that wrapped up the main issues with multiplayer (that being renewability and some multiplayer-friendly features)? I ask since, for almost two entire years, DST pretty much did not change base game content wise except for the events and the celestial portal. I feel a lot of people have stuck to this vision of DST because thats how long it was in that era for.

[BezKa]

8 minutes ago, JoeW said:

It's not great when people think there is no content because they are expected to go find it themselves. 

Especially when that's the best part of the game...

12 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Thanks. Although, I hope that it's understood that a game studio actively trying to keep a player playing for months and years and forever is not good behavior. Or at least, what they need to do to make that happen isn't great. 

It's one thing that a game is good enough to keep a person around for years because they love it. It's another thing to design around that idea. 

Oh definitely. The only way to keep a player forever is addiction, and that would suck. Thanks for clarification for the future

[JoeW]

1 minute ago, Maxil20 said:

On an earlier thread, you mentioned DS was “done” with ROG as that wrapped up the inital gameplay loop. By comparison, was DST “done” with ANR as that wrapped up the main issues with multiplayer (that being renewability and some multiplayer-friendly features)? I ask since, for almost two entire years, DST pretty much did not change base game content wise except for the events and the celestial portal. I feel a lot of people have stuck to this vision of DST because thats how long it was in that era for.

Yeah, ANR was very much "ROG" in that sense. As a matter of fact, it was approached in much the same way. 

Basically - to try to avoid my usual lengthy posts. Before ANR DST was DS that you could play with somebody else. 

A New Reign was us "making good" on delivering a better multiplayer version of DS. Everything since then has been us trying to deliver on what players have asked us for since then. 

The thing is - to do something like that in an already established and "done" is not necessarily great. And super hard. And very much at risk of upsetting a lot of people. Sometimes that's what is needed, if people recognize and understand it. =)

We have a crazy balancing act of trying to please everybody, trying not to upset anybody and trying to keep things interesting and fresh. 

I think we're succeeding for most people. It's a little different here on the forums because this is where people come to give us feedback. I think most feedback here is in good faith. It gets a bit heated for various reasons, but we want the feedback. 

I just would like people to be a bit nicer about it to each other and a little less like we're some shady character in a dark corner trying to figure out how we can ruin everything for everyone. 
 

[Mike23Ua]

Some things actually were more difficult though.. like Wendy Pre-Rework vs Wendy after Rework.

Wendy Pre-Rework required killing a mob near Abigail’s flower to summon her, and should Abigail happen to die.. the player would have to go into whatever dangerous zone the flower dropped in and retrieve the flower (alongside waiting 3 days for it to bloom back out and be useable again)

Reworked Wendy allows the player to endlessly summon Abigail from a flower that never leaves Wendy’s inventory, even if Abby dies you can just keep resummoning her, and yes she’ll be low health but there’s an obvious difference between time spent alone without Abigail vs Endless summons.

But that’s not the only areas things got easier in I mentioned earlier the Wonkey Curse, originally it was more of an actual curse and persisted with the player even through their deaths and could only be removed by trading banana to Queen Monkey, but now.. the player only needs empty their inventory of everything they want to keep.. and then go die in an obscure area to drop all monkey trinkets and remove the Monkey Curse.

I feel like in a game where characters are getting crazy stupid powerful perks through skill trees (Willow Fire Mage Abilities..) that it was actually “Fun” to have that “Curse” that prevented you from being able to use those firemage powers?

Idk I’m just trying to share my point of view.

And once again.. Wonkey Curse didn’t actually damage players precious bases… it was just something they found too annoying and frustrating for them to want to have to deal with.

[Auth]

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Right. In your opinion, are the changes that KLEI is making to DST being good or bad for the company?

I know nothing of the business end, and barely even care about it, personally. I'm a player, I play games. My opinion is restricted to how much I enjoy particular game content, not how much cheddar it's making behind the scenes. DST is obviously not failing, but like I said, it never was at any point. For me it's hard to genuinely tell one way or the other as that's just not a world I'm a part of or even interested in, and I don't have to be.

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Should Klei reverse everything because of a few nostalgic players?

Of course not. What's done is done, but I can still find it unsatisfactory, especially when compared to veins of content from previous updates or "arcs" of updates.
I would much rather see content be tweaked to a point where it can feel satisfactory to a point I like, than have it be removed. I like coming up with, and when Klei comes up with, creative solutions to problems rather than "X Bad! Remove X! Add Y! Y better!"

Easiest example off the top of my head with little thought: I dislike skilltrees. A lot.
I would not want to see them removed, especially at this point. I'd rather see the skill tree system itself reworked into something that feels more organic or like the perks are fair rewards for a job well done. I've had lots of ideas for such things, but I won't get into this topic more here because it's irrelevant.
The point is, I'd much rather see the game continue to be worked on, acknowledging where it is, but maybe steering back towards the design principles that I personally enjoyed a lot more. I don't think anything should be abandoned or that a certain playerbase must now be neglected in order for another one to be satisfied. I do believe that there is always a way to do things in bigger and better ways, even if I or others can't immediately come up with or articulate those ideas.

4 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Do you believe you have a superior ability to understand the direction of DST than the developer group?

I never said I did. I said I dislike the direction, not that I do or don't understand it. Or whether or not it's profitable, especially when it's not like there's a comparable metric.

But yes. I totally 100% do believe it. I am the best, ever, hands down. In everything. I know more than Klei does about everything. I even know more math than Klei. I even know how to juggle.
Have you ever seen Klei juggle? Doubtful.

 

42 minutes ago, JoeW said:

But the thing is, Don't Starve isn't actually a "difficult" game generally speaking. At least not in the traditional sense. It is if you're new. But if you know what you need to do, it's just a matter of doing it, generally. Or, at least that's the idea. 

HOWEVER - it can be seen as difficult. Compared to most other survival games out there, it's extremely difficult. Honestly, what other games out there are MORE difficult. Project Zomboid, almost certainly. But they are offering a different experience than us. 

42 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Many of you want the game to just generally be harder. But that's not great for everybody, to a lot of people it's more than difficult enough as it is. We'll likely be addressing the overall general challenge of the game for those looking for that in a future roadmap. That's not to say nothing will be difficult in THIS roadmap, just that it won't be an overarching start to finish balance shift on difficulty. 

I believe there are many other ways to say I, and maybe others, want a more "challenging" game without necessarily adding more "difficult" or directly "harder" elements to it.

To me, there is no argument that the game is getting easier. It's obviously not- players still die to the same basic threats they always have been. The game maintains its initial difficulty, and despite what some say and what others misinterpret some as saying, it's not going away. At least, not any time soon, as updates have shown. The game maintains it's initial uncompromising welcome to unenlightened new players.

However, I believe that the main shortcoming of recent updates is not that it's "easier", but that the skill ceiling is extremely low on them, which leads to situations where new/inexperienced players, sure, get the ability to get their hands on content they might've not previously within a shorter time, but also has an unfortunate consequence where, due to the contents nature, it over-inflates the already skilled playerbase with even more tools at their disposal, without offering much more clay to sculpt with, if you bother trying to make that analogy make sense.

I feel that updates don't need to be made to nerf or remove content, because I think back to the earlier days, the style of those veins of updates, how they added new challenges, where, if you kept up with the updates, it felt almost as if the world itself was responding to the playerbase's increase in skill, and began sending out more threats and challenges as the playerbase figured out how to deal with them. Additionally, those updates would add new ways to tackle old issues. One update adds hounds, next adds tooth traps. Stuff like that. The old pipeline of updates kept itself balanced by in itself being a balancing act. It's why I like games that take inspiration from Don't Starve like Vintage Story, they make sure to keep the game's difficulty consistent with a player's skill level as time goes on. This isn't balancing around veterans or player retention, it's balancing around age.

It's nice when a game acknowledges and respects your skill growth by organically presenting you with greater obstacles to fairly face, but when it plateaus, or even begins crawling back down, it can feel a little upsetting as, it's not so much that I'm mad that new players or people besides me are having fun, it's not that I'm somehow jealous of people reaching my skill level, but just that I was eagerly awaiting the next hill to climb. For some it leads to resentment, for me it's just disappointing. It feels like I have to sit around and wait for something to scratch the itch that, before, the game's style of updates was hitting so flawlessly, but now, no longer is.

This is just my point of view on this kind of content. I can still tell there's a lot of care and thought put into the game, but this is what I at least personally mean by being dissatisfied with new content.

I have a lot of ideas about this as well. Ideas about new features or total reworks to whole content infrastructrures. I actually have a document that I use to write down changes, big and small, I would potentially consider for Don't Starve updates whenever I think of them. Which is a lot. I think about this game an uncomfortable amount honestly.

Also I have to go. Normally I proofread and tweak posts I make like these for too long a while but I don't have the time for this one. Sorry if there's typos or grammar errors or if my thoughts aren't really conclusively structured.

[Cruvimaster]

3 minutes ago, Auth said:

I know nothing of the business end, and barely even care about it, personally. I'm a player, I play games. My opinion is restricted to how much I enjoy particular game content, not how much cheddar it's making behind the scenes. DST is obviously not failing, but like I said, it never was at any point. For me it's hard to genuinely tell one way or the other as that's just not a world I'm a part of or even interested in, and I don't have to be.

Of course not. What's done is done, but I can still find it unsatisfactory, especially when compared to veins of content from previous updates or "arcs" of updates.
I would much rather see content be tweaked to a point where it can feel satisfactory to a point I like, than have it be removed. I like coming up with, and when Klei comes up with, creative solutions to problems rather than "X Bad! Remove X! Add Y! Y better!"

Easiest example off the top of my head with little thought: I dislike skilltrees. A lot.
I would not want to see them removed, especially at this point. I'd rather see the skill tree system itself reworked into something that feels more organic or like the perks are fair rewards for a job well done. I've had lots of ideas for such things, but I won't get into this topic more here because it's irrelevant.
The point is, I'd much rather see the game continue to be worked on, acknowledging where it is, but maybe steering back towards the design principles that I personally enjoyed a lot more. I don't think anything should be abandoned or that a certain playerbase must now be neglected in order for another one to be satisfied. I do believe that there is always a way to do things in bigger and better ways, even if I or others can't immediately come up with or articulate those ideas.

I never said I did. I said I dislike the direction, not that I do or don't understand it. Or whether or not it's profitable, especially when it's not like there's a comparable metric.

But yes. I totally 100% do believe it. I am the best, ever, hands down. In everything. I know more than Klei does about everything. I even know more math than Klei. I even know how to juggle.
Have you ever seen Klei juggle? Doubtful.

I thank you for your responses. I don't have much more to say, as JoeW has already given the answers the author asked for.

[Echsrick]

i dont exactly know what you mean directly but what i dont like is all of this planar stuff they keep half adding in some updates

[JoeW]

 

36 minutes ago, Auth said:

However, I believe that the main shortcoming of recent updates is not that it's "easier", but that the skill ceiling is extremely low on them, which leads to situations where new/inexperienced players, sure, get the ability to get their hands on content they might've not previously within a shorter time, but also has an unfortunate consequence where, due to the contents nature, it over-inflates the already skilled playerbase with even more tools at their disposal, without offering much more clay to sculpt with, if you bother trying to make that analogy make sense.

Yeah, we're also not done. We'll see how it all shakes out in the end - but what has happened up to this point isn't the end of it all. We've tried to express this but I get that you can only really know what we've shown up to this point. 

But yeah, power creep is a thing and certainly we're not a stranger to it. 

And you were formulating your post when I wrote my last - but I am really not disagreeing. I am mostly trying to express our motivations and making sure you all know that the concern isn't been screamed into the void. 

[Cruvimaster]

3 minutes ago, JoeW said:

 We'll see how it all shakes out in the end - but what has happened up to this point isn't the end of it all.

Powerful words.

[GetNerfedOn]

1 hour ago, JoeW said:

But the thing is, Don't Starve isn't actually a "difficult" game generally speaking. At least not in the traditional sense. It is if you're new. But if you know what you need to do, it's just a matter of doing it, generally. Or, at least that's the idea. 

This game is not hard. Not because it's not hard. But because video games fundamentally aren't hard. You know what's hard? The circumstances of life. Getting a degree. Having a stable family. Being born with a baby arm. You're born and one arm develops normally into an adult arm, but the other is this stunted, mini-child arm which stops growing at, like, 3 years of age. So you're this freakish monstrosity who'll be known around town as baby-arm man. And the only job you'll ever have is baby-arm stock photo because it's harder for them to get a kid to pose for that. It's a lot more convenient to have a malformed monstrosity on standby.

[Castiliano]

Hey Antynomity, I just want to say:
- A New Reign had 8 major updates
- Return of Them had 8 major updates
- so, you're saying you'll stop after From Beyond has 7 updates. So, I'm bringing this observation so you can at least consider finishing this arc and then make your decision. I believe u would have a better view of things.

 

sorry, i have OCD

[Cyrefy]

The game has never been better, maybe you are saturated with the game, and your brain is looking for excuses to stop playing.

 

You should take a break...

[Mr Giggio]

Im not trying to be rude, honestly, but that doesnt have a way to say it without sugarcoating - its not about you.
I dont know buddy, seems like its just a case to go play another game. Valheim seems fire. BG3. This year brought a lot of good ones.
Like we know the company is small, they doing what they doing and know better and even tho u will throw the "Im the consumer" card lets remember thats ENTIRELY for free.

They dare to do all this FOR FREE. 

Now name a game.Yup. 

If u cant wait, u cant wait. I get that. What I dont get is why its Klei's problem or why this needs to be a case of "yeah so I feel like this" when u have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about their job. LIKE, NOT A CLUE.

I said what I ve said, no harsh feelings towards ya buddy, its just like eh. Reality check.

[Cheggf]

It seems like most of the oldheads are gone. It's mostly fresh faces on the forums. 

[zhangsheng]

You can't expect Klei to do anything else while focusing on the roadmap. There are many ways to solve the difficulty problem of the game, but not now. Now Klei should focus on updating the skill tree and consider other issues in the next roadmap.

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, Mr Giggio said:

Valheim seems fire.

Nah, is very unispired, grindy and repetitive. I recommend V rising and grounded if you look for similar games but with actual good content and progression 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, zhangsheng said:

You can't expect Klei to do anything else while focusing on the roadmap. There are many ways to solve the difficulty problem of the game, but not now. Now Klei should focus on updating the skill tree and consider other issues in the next roadmap.

The roadmap promised 4 substantial updates that would each contain a mix of skill trees, QoL and Game content.

So far this year we’ve had Year of the Dragonboat (which contained no skill tree updates and I’m not sure if it counted as one of those 4 substantial updates or not.)

Scrappy Scavangers Update (contained Wigfrid & Willow Skill tree update, QoL changes, And New gameplay content)

And Staying Afloat (or whatever it was called.. #Otter Update which contained Wurt & Winona Skill Trees, Major Ocean QoL for sailing over salt stacks, and cute adorable Otter! )

But that only lists 2 Skill tree content updates, meaning there’s 2 more updates with skill trees to come?

2 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Im not trying to be rude, honestly, but that doesnt have a way to say it without sugarcoating - its not about you.
I dont know buddy, seems like its just a case to go play another game. Valheim seems fire. BG3. This year brought a lot of good ones.
Like we know the company is small, they doing what they doing and know better and even tho u will throw the "Im the consumer" card lets remember thats ENTIRELY for free.

They dare to do all this FOR FREE. 

Now name a game.Yup. 

If u cant wait, u cant wait. I get that. What I dont get is why its Klei's problem or why this needs to be a case of "yeah so I feel like this" when u have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about their job. LIKE, NOT A CLUE.

I said what I ve said, no harsh feelings towards ya buddy, its just like eh. Reality check.

You mean to name any other game you paid money for that gets free updates? Well I can name several.. such as Trinity Fusion or Cult of the Lamb or Minecraft or State of Decay 2 or No Man’s Sky..

They don’t get updates as frequently as DST used to (once a month was insane and highly ambitious! So it’s understandable they slowed down pace.)

But they all get *free* updates in a game you paid for.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

It seems like most of the oldheads are gone. It's mostly fresh faces on the forums. 

Eh, some of us are still here. I've actually been playing since original Don't Starve was in beta (I remember food spoilage being added and struggling to figure out how to feed myself without just burning a beefalo herd to death at night and living off of their meat for ages). I was there for caves being added, back when they had walls, and I still remember parts of my first Adventure Mode playthrough. I just changed accounts from my old one on Steam as well as here. Kind of started as having an alt for furry stuff and then that became my main account. 
So, I've been around for reasonably close to as long as it's possible to have been around, even if I did take a break before Shipwrecked came out and only came back after A New Reign in DST. 

[zhangsheng]

58 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The roadmap promised 4 substantial updates that would each contain a mix of skill trees, QoL and Game content.

So far this year we’ve had Year of the Dragonboat (which contained no skill tree updates and I’m not sure if it counted as one of those 4 substantial updates or not.)

Scrappy Scavangers Update (contained Wigfrid & Willow Skill tree update, QoL changes, And New gameplay content)

And Staying Afloat (or whatever it was called.. #Otter Update which contained Wurt & Winona Skill Trees, Major Ocean QoL for sailing over salt stacks, and cute adorable Otter! )

But that only lists 2 Skill tree content updates, meaning there’s 2 more updates with skill trees to come?

I think the Year of the Dragon and Fly should not be included in this year's update plan. After all, previous New Year's events were counted as from the previous year. I think we will have two more updates in mid September and mid December, and there should be at least four character skill tree content updates.

[gamehun20]

5 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

I think the Year of the Dragon and Fly should not be included in this year's update plan. After all, previous New Year's events were counted as from the previous year. I think we will have two more updates in mid September and mid December, and there should be at least four character skill tree content updates.

Could be possible that an update from this year happens next year because it can't fit the time

[cropo]

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

It seems like most of the oldheads are gone. It's mostly fresh faces on the forums. 

I was on reddit and stuff and a lot of "old heads" left during ANR because they hated it. They fixed Singleplayer glitches, which was their bread and butter, they felt that Hamlet was unfinished because they'd rather focus on their "special" child DST, they felt the bosses started becoming too MMO-like and hard simply because they had 20billion HP. They hated Antlion ruining their megabases if they didn't go feed it, considering it to be a chore. They hated the cave system, turning the 3 seperate caves per world into a singular connected one with the ruins on the same level(Which I actually think is way better tbh.).

The few remaining, playing faithfully one day come across an announcement from Klei that another QoL patch is coming, in which they....fixed the pinecone glitch. That was a final straw for even more older players, the long list of glitches they discovered was part of the creative process for them. Being able to put backpacks into your inventory as a super-bundling wrap before jumping portals was a form of renewing materials; they liked using exploits to renew materials, like renewing rocks through molewarm farms. 

 

Return of them didn't really affect much of the old playerbase, ANR and Hamlet's alleged drop from support was a bigger factor in a lot of the old players leaving.

[Reiko24]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

It seems like most of the oldheads are gone. It's mostly fresh faces on the forums. 

I seem kinda new on the forums, I think, but I have been playing DS and DST since childhood. I remember when RoG was first announced, how happy I was. So certainly there are people like me, who are "oldheads" but did not interact with the forums before.

I am defending Klei not because I think that right now the game is fine, but I have faith in them that it will turn out fine. They listen, they love the game genuinely. Let's just wait and see the bigger picture. They are not a huge group of devs, we will need to wait some time. If you need to take a break in the meantime, it's okay.

[grm9]

4 hours ago, Cyrefy said:

The game has never been better, maybe you are saturated with the game, and your brain is looking for excuses to stop playing

so opinions don't exist

[Keknutui]

17 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

Верно. По вашему мнению, изменения, которые KLEI вносит в летнее время, хороши или плохи для компании? Должна ли Klei все отменить из-за нескольких игроков, испытывающих ностальгию? Вы верите, что обладаете лучшими способностями понимать направление DST, чем группа разработчиков?

The nostalgia situation is similar to minecraft, with one exception. In Minecraft, players go to the old versions just for nostalgia or mini-games, but most of them are happy with the progress and development of the game, and players in dst, on the contrary, want the game to stagnate. I really love the changes in the game and at the moment I personally see the picture this way