I miss old Wolfgang

[BeeClops]

I miss him too, new Wolf is fine critical hit and free piggy back are good perks and he deals more dmg overall, but yeah much more boring playstyle than old Wolf, it had so much more depth in his simple mechanics

 

[Bird Up]

I would agree with the sentiment, I don't like the lifting aesthetic he's taken on. I always see his character as someone who lacks confidence and is overcome with fear in uncertain situations, and combats this with his macho performances. Before, he would become mighty by being on a full stomach. I like that he now becomes mighty while fighting, but he also becomes mighty by lifting dumbells which loses touch with his character I feel.

[arubaro]

On 6/11/2024 at 7:21 PM, cybers2001 said:

If you haven’t experienced the mighty/normal stunloop, you haven’t played Wolfgang as much as me. To be clear, I’m not complaining about dumbbells, and I’m not looking for advice, either. There are many reasons why you might find your mightiness dropping into normal range at a very unfortunate time where you may not have the luxury of a few seconds to stand and lift to safely clear that threshold.

This is something unique to reworked Wolfgang, hence why I’m using it to compare to old Wolfgang.

Controlling a bar to prevent being stunlocked is part of the gameplay and mechanic

It also happend with old wolfgang when you needed to control his hunger

[Guille6785]

Old Wolfgang was one of the best designed characters in the game IMO, his mechanics were really simple but they added a nice spin on the overall gameplay experience and it added a layer of decision making to most situations because going mighty wasn't always preferable (unlike new Wolf where there's almost no cost to staying mighty at all times but also very little benefit outside of combat)

I'm still disappointed in the way Klei handled the rework, not because they caved in to complaints and tried to "nerf" Wolf (the echo chamber created by people who never played Wolfgang but insisted he was overpowered and needed to be nerfed was so strong I can't blame Klei for thinking this is what would actually benefit the game) but because of how arrogant some of their staff were during the rework. I know not every Klei developer is like this but it was disappointing to see actual developers write posts about how Wolfgang needed to be nerfed because "if he wasn't nerfed then people would stop playing every character and play nothing but Wolf" while citing blatant misinformation about his mechanics (and, of course, they buffed him to the stratosphere afterwards anyway).

Probably what saddens me more is just the sheer misinformation going around about the rework; I know the DST community has always had an issue with the few prominent voices who speak out first controlling the entire narrative, but many influential people have spread a revised version of history where apparently what happened during the rework was that "the most overpowered character ever added to DST was finally nerfed, and then a bunch of tryhard meta elitists complained that their easy mode was removed" (none of this actually happened). It's been 2 and a half years since the rework and a lot of new players have joined the community who learn this blatantly wrong version of history from those people; it's genuinely bizarre to see people claiming that pre-rework Wolfgang was the most powerful version of the character when even the very first iteration of the rework was arguably stronger than that, let alone all the buffs he received after on top of that.

I just wish both the developers and the community at large would have learned something from this whole fiasco, but sadly since the popular narrative has transformed into one where neither group did anything wrong that doesn't seem to have been the case. Sucks but it is what it is

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

~~snip~~

I could maybe, and I do mean maybe see a solid argument for Wolfgang as the "best" character in a pre-refresh world. But I really don't know how that narrative has persisted this damn long.

Yeah, his damage has always been fantastic. But Wanda and later Maxwell where able to match or even exceed his damage while also having absurd utility or crowd control abilities. So he was up there, but only A or even B tier all things considered.

And then Planar damage was introduced, which meant that his damage modifer was pretty heavily gutted by opening the rifts. Which, sure. Other combat characters where hit by it to. That was the point of Planar mechanics. But atleast those guys had utility outside of just hitting hard. Something Wolfgang really doesn't.

And then they introduced skill trees. Which was done with the explicit goal of making everyone a combat character. So now every character who isn't Wolfgang has damage that's comparable to him. But with his Skill tree, sure he got most of his damage back when using planar mechanics. Hell, he now gets even more damage against any aligned enemies. But didn't get any of the utility that the other characters who; again; now have comparable damage to him.

Which... quick aside. What was the point of Introducing Rifts and Planar mechanics to nerf combat characters and make their damage more comparable to everyone else. And then three months later introducing skill trees to make everyone a combat character and negate the damage loss that rifts and Planar Mechanics imposed on existing combat characters? I dunno about you. But those two things feel reaaaal contradictory to me.

Sorry. Got distracted. Anyways, I get the feeling y'all would like @Toros' own Wolfgang rework.

Spoiler

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3013441539&searchtext=

It brings back Classic Wolfgang's hunger mechanics, while also giving him the utility perks that he desperately wants. It's genuinly led to some of the most fun I've had with Wolfgang in years.

[cybers2001]

On 6/16/2024 at 5:27 AM, arubaro said:

Controlling a bar to prevent being stunlocked is part of the gameplay and mechanic

It also happend with old wolfgang when you needed to control his hunger

Not at all. There's a huge difference between the transition stun lock mechanic pre rework vs the endless transition loop I'm talking about post rework.

Pre rework, the worst case would be that during a prolonged battle, you allow your hunger to slip below the threshold. This can be avoided easily enough in the first place by micro-snacking quick things during the fight, like mushrooms or honey, or just breaking away long enough to eat something meaty like pierogi. If you did slip up and lose mightiness, then yes you'll probably get hit, but then you can either continue fighting while not mighty, or create space to buy yourself time to return to mightiness at your own discretion.

Post rework, if you enter a battle as your mightiness slips, then you get stunned and probably hit, but now the recovery is trickier. First of all, fighting as normal form isn't an option, because as soon as you start attacking, you become mighty again, which stuns you again. And if you don't continue to attack several more times after becoming mighty, you will become normal again, which stuns you again. Second of all, if you do want to properly correct this to avoid the endless loop, you need to create enough space to buy enough time to use the dumbbell, which takes WAY longer than popping a single honey ham in your mouth.

[arubaro]

1 hour ago, cybers2001 said:

Not at all. There's a huge difference between the transition stun lock mechanic pre rework vs the endless transition loop I'm talking about post rework.

Pre rework, the worst case would be that during a prolonged battle, you allow your hunger to slip below the threshold. This can be avoided easily enough in the first place by micro-snacking quick things during the fight, like mushrooms or honey, or just breaking away long enough to eat something meaty like pierogi. If you did slip up and lose mightiness, then yes you'll probably get hit, but then you can either continue fighting while not mighty, or create space to buy yourself time to return to mightiness at your own discretion.

Post rework, if you enter a battle as your mightiness slips, then you get stunned and probably hit, but now the recovery is trickier. First of all, fighting as normal form isn't an option, because as soon as you start attacking, you become mighty again, which stuns you again. And if you don't continue to attack several more times after becoming mighty, you will become normal again, which stuns you again. Second of all, if you do want to properly correct this to avoid the endless loop, you need to create enough space to buy enough time to use the dumbbell, which takes WAY longer than popping a single honey ham in your mouth.

Are you playing with 0 hunger??? The bar holds a lot of time and, if you are normal and hit, you should learn when to hit to become might when you aren't going to get hit.

Wolfgang is already so simplistic to also remove the little deepness of his mechanics... that would make him totally brain dead character and prevent spicy situations... seems like you only want upsides without anything to take care about 

[Mike23Ua]

Old Wolfgang was a problem for New Players, his Might level was tied exclusively to his Hunger Level, and if that player was so new to the game that they were constantly starving and still having to fight Spiders, then they would now be fighting those spiders in his weakest most useless form- All in an Effort to obtain and eat Monster Meat to shake of Starvation.

And if Hound Waves happened to be coming they were absolutely Screwed.

The New Wolfgang removed that by giving them the option to “Buff Up” when they hear hounds barking, they could be starving to death at that time but, the few seconds between the hounds audio cue and their arrival would allow ample time to buff to Mighty Form and take them on.

YOU HAVE NO FOOD THE HOUNDS SHALL BE THE FOOD!

That is exactly why New Wolfgang is Superior in almost every way to Old Wolfgang..

And there’s a few flavor perks added in their too, like being able to toss dumbells at birds and rabbits to obtain meat morsel which can be used to make the second most noob friendly dish next to Meatballs, Bunny Stews. 

1 Small Morsel + 3 Ice = Cheap heals.

Old Wolfgang may had been easier to do Boss fights with if you kept his hunger up, but that’s about all he had going for him.

And besides- The animation for flipping a marble or gem bell is roughly the same amount of time as eating your meatball/meaty stew/honey hams.

[cybers2001]

3 hours ago, arubaro said:

Are you playing with 0 hunger??? The bar holds a lot of time and, if you are normal and hit, you should learn when to hit to become might when you aren't going to get hit.

Wolfgang is already so simplistic to also remove the little deepness of his mechanics... that would make him totally brain dead character and prevent spicy situations... seems like you only want upsides without anything to take care about 

Man a lot of people arguing about an objective truth I gave about new vs old Wolfgang. I don't really know what else to tell you if aren't familiar with this difference than to just play him more and see for yourself.

Like this is literally a thread about mechanical differences with the character, and as soon as someone says something like, "these extra stunlocks are annoying", you think that's your cue to jump in with your "kek skill-diff" rhetoric.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

And besides- The animation for flipping a marble or gem bell is roughly the same amount of time as eating your meatball/meaty stew/honey hams.

That is HIGHLY dependent on what your mighty meter is at when you start lifting. Again, a single honey ham is all you needed for max mighty if you were on the cusp. A single bell flip can get you mighty if you're on the cusp, but you really want more like 4 or 5 flips to solidly clear the threshold.

[cybers2001]

By the way, I think an actual improvement to the loop lock scenario I've been talking about, which wouldn't buff Wolfgang outside of this one scenario, would be to add a "transform down" cooldown mechanic. In other words, whenever Wolfgang transforms up, he could gain a 10 second immunity from transforming down, even though his mightiness could still dip below the threshold during that window. This buys him time to be able to solidly secure the higher mightiness level through his current action (chopping trees, combat, etc), while having virtually no effect under more passive circumstances.

[abrocator]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Old Wolfgang was a problem for New Players, his Might level was tied exclusively to his Hunger Level, and if that player was so new to the game that they were constantly starving and still having to fight Spiders, then they would now be fighting those spiders in his weakest most useless form- All in an Effort to obtain and eat Monster Meat to shake of Starvation.

And if Hound Waves happened to be coming they were absolutely Screwed.

The New Wolfgang removed that by giving them the option to “Buff Up” when they hear hounds barking, they could be starving to death at that time but, the few seconds between the hounds audio cue and their arrival would allow ample time to buff to Mighty Form and take them on.

YOU HAVE NO FOOD THE HOUNDS SHALL BE THE FOOD!

That is exactly why New Wolfgang is Superior in almost every way to Old Wolfgang..

And there’s a few flavor perks added in their too, like being able to toss dumbells at birds and rabbits to obtain meat morsel which can be used to make the second most noob friendly dish next to Meatballs, Bunny Stews. 

1 Small Morsel + 3 Ice = Cheap heals.

Old Wolfgang may had been easier to do Boss fights with if you kept his hunger up, but that’s about all he had going for him.

And besides- The animation for flipping a marble or gem bell is roughly the same amount of time as eating your meatball/meaty stew/honey hams.

So the argument for the first rework was that old Wolfgang was too powerful. Now the argument is that old Wolfgang was too hard to newbies?

So what if old Wolfgang was too hard for newbies? He has 2X damage while mighty. That doesn’t come for free.

4 hours ago, arubaro said:

Wolfgang is already so simplistic to also remove the little deepness of his mechanics... that would make him totally brain dead character and prevent spicy situations... seems like you only want upsides without anything to take care about 

Hmm? cybers compared the downsides of the old Wolfgang and current Wolfgang. Clearly they are fine with the downsides of old Wolfgang.

[Mike23Ua]

19 minutes ago, abrocator said:

So the argument for the first rework was that old Wolfgang was too powerful. Now the argument is that old Wolfgang was too hard to newbies?

So what if old Wolfgang was too hard for newbies? He has 2X damage while mighty. That doesn’t come for free.

Hmm? cybers compared the downsides of the old Wolfgang and current Wolfgang. Clearly they are fine with the downsides of old Wolfgang.

Actually.. it sort of does? there’s even a skill perk you can pick so the gym mini game plays itself, if that’s not free it’s darn close to it.

[Popian]

5 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Man a lot of people arguing about an objective truth I gave about new vs old Wolfgang. I don't really know what else to tell you if aren't familiar with this difference than to just play him more and see for yourself.

I know what you are talking about, and it looks more like a refusal to temporarily equip a dumbbell to prevent powering down or help clear the threshold. You can even attack with the dumbbell if you've found yourself in the situation and have committed to fighting back, which will very much clear the threshold and give plenty of buffer if using a higher quality one.

The situation can often be avoided by deciding whether you want to fight by pumping up or powering down before you enter an area. It's already a lot more forgiving than Woodie, who has to take the full brunt of damage unarmored when transforming either way with no way to pause or revert drain.

[Mozheikich]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Old Wolfgang was a problem for New Players

How about Warly? How will new players have enough food and recipe knowledge to play him?

[cybers2001]

18 hours ago, Popian said:

I know what you are talking about, and it looks more like a refusal to temporarily equip a dumbbell to prevent powering down or help clear the threshold. You can even attack with the dumbbell if you've found yourself in the situation and have committed to fighting back, which will very much clear the threshold and give plenty of buffer if using a higher quality one.

This is not a solution. If you have the luxury to run and kite with a dumbbell in your hand, you have the luxury of running further away with a cane and pumping a dumbbell several times. Imagine scenarios like terrorbeaks or shadow monkeys during nightmare phase.

18 hours ago, Popian said:

The situation can often be avoided by deciding whether you want to fight by pumping up or powering down before you enter an area. It's already a lot more forgiving than Woodie, who has to take the full brunt of damage unarmored when transforming either way with no way to pause or revert drain.

You're still thinking too small. Obviously if you can always anticipate the situation then it's a non-issue. And definitely not relatable to Woodie at all. Woodie is more like old Wolfgang, where the power up is "opt in", verses new Wolfgang, where you can get punished for fighting via the passive mightiness you gain from doing so. Regardless, I'm not even talking about one-time stunlocks.

Even regular tasks like pitch forking turf can experience this annoying lock loop effect, which is just a jarring experience at best. This really is a phenomenon that ONLY new Wolfgang experiences (and by new, I mean post-rework *hotfix* Wolfgang, not just reworked)

[abrocator]

22 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Actually.. it sort of does? there’s even a skill perk you can pick so the gym mini game plays itself, if that’s not free it’s darn close to it.

You have consistently weird opinions on what takes skill/effort and what doesn’t.

[Cheggf]

Every time they touch Wolfgang they have consistently made him a more powerful character that's also more annoying and unfun. It's like a monkey's paw. Sure, we'll mitigate how much you need to use the dumbbells... By making you gain mightiness from everything, so you have an annoying animation that can loop into itself! Mwuahaha!

[_zwb]

On 6/16/2024 at 6:57 PM, Theukon-dos said:

Which... quick aside. What was the point of Introducing Rifts and Planar mechanics to nerf combat characters and make their damage more comparable to everyone else. And then three months later introducing skill trees to make everyone a combat character and negate the damage loss that rifts and Planar Mechanics imposed on existing combat characters? I dunno about you. But those two things feel reaaaal contradictory to me.

Infinite content farm. It's like an RPG progression system but much more boring. tbh the entire from beyond arc is just turning the game into an rpg

[Porkus]

On 6/15/2024 at 1:31 PM, SaltyPepper2231 said:

Solo Don’t Starve

Would make sense if they weren't completely different games

[Mike23Ua]

On 6/16/2024 at 2:10 AM, BeeClops said:

I miss him too, new Wolf is fine critical hit and free piggy back are good perks and he deals more dmg overall, but yeah much more boring playstyle than old Wolf, it had so much more depth in his simple mechanics

 

Those mechanics were far far too simple, all you did was shove food in your mouth and you win, NOW even if you are shoving food in your mouth, you at least have to manage your strength alongside that.

It takes Wolfgang from being Superman by eating a meal, and gives the guy some Kryptonite.

Now even if I DID just munch down a meaty stew I know I also need to “buff up” with the Dumbells.

And as I said, the trade off is that newer players who struggled to get food can still be starving to death & buff up long enough to deal with an incoming hound wave.

[Porkus]

On 6/11/2024 at 9:39 AM, Mike23Ua said:

One of the things I love about the new Wolfgang that Im certain original Wolfgang players don’t take into account, is that his Mightiness is no longer tied exclusively to how hungry he is.

This is what everyone takes into account? Almost all discussion around his rework was about moving it to a meter rather than his hunger.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Those mechanics were far far too simple, all you did was shove food in your mouth and you win, NOW even if you are shoving food in your mouth, you at least have to manage your strength alongside that.

It takes Wolfgang from being Superman by eating a meal, and gives the guy some Kryptonite.

Now even if I DID just munch down a meaty stew I know I also need to “buff up” with the Dumbells.

And as I said, the trade off is that newer players who struggled to get food can still be starving to death & buff up long enough to deal with an incoming hound wave.

The new mechanics are more simple. The benefits of being mighty were made much more simple and straight-forward, and the way to activate being mighty is also much more simple and straight-forward. You never need to weigh your options on whether to spend resources to get a buffed form. It's just if you're about to do a lot of fighting or a lot of harvesting you right click on a dumbbell. That's it.

[Gotheran]

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

The new mechanics are more simple. The benefits of being mighty were made much more simple and straight-forward, and the way to activate being mighty is also much more simple and straight-forward. You never need to weigh your options on whether to spend resources to get a buffed form. It's just if you're about to do a lot of fighting or a lot of harvesting you right click on a dumbbell. That's it.

How is managing a new meter simple? Granted it takes no effort to manage, but it takes away the depth of old wolfgang where staying wimpy was a tactical choice to save on food and you had to keep your food supplies well stocked to jump into mighty mode at the drop of a hat where DST is mighty all the time for no thought or extra effort.

So I suppose it is super simple, frankly too simple in practice since he gains and maintains mightiness so easily why even have the mechanic, why not replace him with permanent mightiness? The old Wolfgang was still dead simple to play but didn't have the micromanagement and inventory bloat of dumbbells and occasionally pumping up his meter to keep going.

I think the mightiness meter distracts from your other meters, and what tasks you currently have at hand, its much simpler to load him up with meaty stews and go ape for 2-3 minutes then going back to business as usual.

[Wonz]

I don't like seeing skills like 
Increase X by 10% 
Increase X by 20% 
Increase X by 30% 
Increase X by 40% 
Increase X by 50% 

 

[cybers2001]

 

Forumites will have you believe this is a fulfilling Wolfgang experience.