Klei fixed the lureplant cheese, a really bad decisions.

[Mike23Ua]

But it’s boring!!! It’s like if I went back and played the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games and instead of needing any skill whatsoever, I could just go enable Auto Combo mode so the game pretty much plays itself.

I can’t even begin to fathom how ANYONE gets entertainment out of that.

Probably the very same people using Aim Bots in Fortnite to make anyone who plays Legit’s life, that much harder.

[Catuna_]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But it’s boring!!! It’s like if I went back and played the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games and instead of needing any skill whatsoever, I could just go enable Auto Combo mode so the game pretty much plays itself.

I can’t even begin to fathom how ANYONE gets entertainment out of that.

Probably the very same people using Aim Bots in Fortnite to make anyone who plays Legit’s life, that much harder.

No... DST isn't a pvp game for this to be comparable to aim bot. And again, no one's telling you to do it.
 

[Yuuko]

51 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This looks so boring that I’d rather be forced to play Mary Kate and Ashley sweet 16 to unlock all the unlockables for my little sister again cause my parents told me to.

Then do it a different way.  imo the AFW fight is great, and I always fight it first but when I'm running it back instead of putting all that mess together I do something like these to make it more simple.  I'm just getting a second bone armor and resetting the ruins, I'm not trying to prove my manhood to your tribe.

40 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I can't duplicate moonstone without the cheese and I'd wanna get plenty of it for pathlights or something. 

Pretty sure you can use the stage hand, just lure it over next to the moonstone event, set up your bearger and dupe away.

[Littlefat1213]

it could be less controversy if this change can be suspended till the rework of toadstool

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, hoxi said:

The change was simple, not lazy, and pretty damn reasonable given that release is in a week (plus the point above), and the main goal was to prevent the new fight from being trivialized on day 1, which is completely valid. Expecting changes on the magnitude of the stuff you mentioned would've been reasonable at the start of this beta maybe, but not at this point.

How is FW fight trivialized on day 1? Its faster to kill FW fighting normally, unless you are Wormwood you need to wait for spring and get lucky with lureplants and get them before other players do.

2 hours ago, hoxi said:

They already said they're revisiting this change as well as old boss fights, yet you act like this change is a completely final end be all thing and that they took the easy/lazy route. Hell, maybe they'll change it before release so it only affects the Werepig, we'll see.

They are revisiting boss changes and yet I don't like the new bosses as much as old ones that have so many options available to dealing with them. At first I did think that nightmare werepig fight was very unique but now every boss is getting fatigue/stun mechanic, some type of charge. They can't be cheesed or exploited and I don't think scrappy werepig needs to be changed so that lureplant doesn't stop his movement, that is just removing an option from players.Old bosses while simple are more interesting as they are unique from each other.

3 hours ago, hoxi said:

And yes, the change is removing a cheese, but it's been said it might not be final, they might change it or revert it or something. It was, once again, not intended to specifically affect the old fight or other farms, but rather the new one that they've been working on along the many other QoL changes, features and improvements. It's rather annoying how some people try to diminish their work over it from armchair programmer/designer stances over a single thing that was taken personally.

So it is kind of final discussion as this is the start of patching these cheeses/exploits, If this passes without discussion like you say, this one is only being brought back until old bosses are going to be revisited and at that point it would be removed. 

I don't want to see all game bosses to be the same or similar to post rift bosses.

It has happened in the past like when rifts were first introduced and it destroyed builds, same with boulders for cave rifts that didn't have protection at the start. Klei can't think of all the outcomes but these were obviously going to be a problem yet it had to be player feedback for there to be changes. You are talking as If klei can't make a mistake or think about all of the player uses for lureplants before patching them.

This didn't just remove FW cheese but Moon rock farming, toadstool, Klaus and possibly future uses for lureplant blocking.

 

 

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Yuuko said:

Then do it a different way.  imo the AFW fight is great, and I always fight it first but when I'm running it back instead of putting all that mess together I do something like these to make it more simple.  I'm just getting a second bone armor and resetting the ruins, I'm not trying to prove my manhood to your tribe.

Pretty sure you can use the stage hand, just lure it over next to the moonstone event, set up your bearger and dupe away.

I’m going to assume that you either don’t play RogueLites/Likes, or that you don’t enjoy the novelty behind them..

But in most Rogue games HOW you will advance through the game is based almost if not entirely on Pure Blind Luck.

You don’t get to just CHOOSE how you’ll fight a Boss, All the Relics & Blessings you’ll luck up on throughout the run determines that FOR YOU.

And believe it or Not… DS and DST aren’t just straight up Sandbox games, they have elements of RogueLite/Like features in them.

(what you’ll find in chests, rather or not you’ll obtain a tam o shatter killing MacTusks/Klaus) 

You’re not meant to “Automate” the games bosses… and anytime I see that in a Twitch stream it’s absolutely disgusting to me.

No im not an elitist, hell I can’t even fight the bosses most the time… but as someone who throughly enjoys having to “make do” with the relics/blessings I’ll encounter during a RogueLite Run it is very heartbreaking to see these tried and true “Best & Laziest ways of doing it” Guides.

I hope you can throughly understand my point of view-

And if you Still can not, I highly encourage you to Download & play both Guidus, and Dungeon Slashers- Both are completely free IOS/Android apps.

But the gist of both games: How Well you’ll perform is determined by what relics & blessings you’ll be able to pick up randomly along the way through the levels.

[Arcwell]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m going to assume that you either don’t play RogueLites/Likes, or that you don’t enjoy the novelty behind them..

But in most Rogue games HOW you will advance through the game is based almost if not entirely on Pure Blind Luck.

You don’t get to just CHOOSE how you’ll fight a Boss, All the Relics & Blessings you’ll luck up on throughout the run determines that FOR YOU.

And believe it or Not… DS and DST aren’t just straight up Sandbox games, they have elements of RogueLite/Like features in them.

(what you’ll find in chests, rather or not you’ll obtain a tam o shatter killing MacTusks/Klaus) 

You’re not meant to “Automate” the games bosses… and anytime I see that in a Twitch stream it’s absolutely disgusting to me.

Having elements of a roguelike is not the same as being a roguelike. You do get to choose how you fight bosses in DST, and always have been able to. There is no RNG aspect that prevents you from doing a fight a certain way because you didn't get a specific weapon/tool/buff/etc. earlier in the run.

You are "meant" to do whatever you want. That is what a sandbox game is. To suggest that you are not meant to automate bosses is the same as suggesting you are meant to play a specific way.

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Having elements of a roguelike is not the same as being a roguelike. You do get to choose how you fight bosses in DST, and always have been able to. There is no RNG aspect that prevents you from doing a fight a certain way because you didn't get a specific weapon/tool/buff/etc. earlier in the run.

You are "meant" to do whatever you want. That is what a sandbox game is. To suggest that you are not meant to automate bosses is the same as suggesting you are meant to play a specific way.

I’m very confused now.. isn’t that the entire point of Planar Damage so that Weapons, Armors & strategies without the “Planar” Tag are less effective?

[Arcwell]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m very confused now.. isn’t that the entire point of Planar Damage so that Weapons, Armors & strategies without the “Planar” Tag are less effective?

Yet there's nothing stopping you from using non-planar damage. In some instances (i.e. beefalo herd against mutated varg), it's even better to use non-planar damage. There is a difference between nerfing methods to make them less effective and outright removing methods.

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 hours ago, Yuuko said:

Pretty sure you can use the stage hand, just lure it over next to the moonstone event, set up your bearger and dupe away.

Good to know

I wouldn't try arguing with Mike imo, feels like he's high when he tries to write something.

[Dreadstone]

Honestly, using lureplants to easily defeat bosses crosses the line in my opinion. However, I don't think Klei has completely blocked this method. You can use Pillar instead. Just using stone pillar allows you to utilize lureplant cheese. When using it to Fuelweaver or Klaus, it consumes a fair amount of rocks, but in this case, you can diligently gather dreadstone and build the Dreadstone pillar. I think this patch is a wise balancing move by Klei. (Thank you Klei. Your balancing is fabulous.)

In conclusion, cheese is still available, but you have to pay the price.

[EatenCheetos]

1 hour ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I wouldn't try arguing with Mike imo, feels like he's high when he tries to write something.

Consider yourself reported

2 hours ago, Arcwell said:

To suggest that you are not meant to automate bosses is the same as suggesting you are meant to play a specific way.

…

You are not meant to exploit bugs to skip major game sections in any game, ever.

[Uedo]

9 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Everybody's so nice. It's hard to imagine how someone might get hot under the collar around here.

I quoted you supposing things that are not set in stone and identified what those were, and answered a literal question, but sure, I'll defer to your obviously complete understanding of your surroundings. As you were.

It's not that deep, question though:

How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning?

5 hours ago, _zwb said:

If you are upset about me pointing out something already pointed out just say it, what's all this passive aggressive talking about?

I don't know  
It seemed very different in my head when I read it back last night, My apologies - i'll edit it. 

Sorry about that @_zwb - think I was trying to be funny but you're right, it seems mean and passive aggressive.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m going to assume that you either don’t play RogueLites/Likes, or that you don’t enjoy the novelty behind them..

You don't have to assume Mike, you say this each time. You've spoke to @Yuuko a lot, even about this, it's really rude that you seem to not listen even when you're in regular conversation - let alone when someone is trying to help you understand something.

[Uedo]

6 hours ago, Pedro cc said:

I honestly hated the lureplant cheese because it was painfully slow and it encouraged other players in the server I play to fill the atrium with houndius and lureplants

It's more to block FW whilst you voidwalk and fight him from out of the arena, the fact it was so fast was the benefit.

[Arcwell]

1 hour ago, EatenCheetos said:

You are not meant to exploit bugs to skip major game sections in any game, ever.

Okay, you're free to think that.

Personally, I enjoy speedrunning a lot, and exploits/skips are part of the fun in that.

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m going to assume that you either don’t play RogueLites/Likes, or that you don’t enjoy the novelty behind them..

I've played a lot of them, from the original roguelikes of Angband through to modern ones that work exactly as you describe.

Yes, some games force you into relying on pure blind luck rather than your own knowledge and skill of the game.  They do this to force the inability to reliably play optimally, it is a form of artificial difficulty.  A good head-check on this is to consider how the game experience would change if you could pick every RNG result.  If the game would be significantly easier, yeah sry you're more gambling than you are gaming.  Not everyone is willing to admit its all smoke and mirrors, but most runs in these games are failed for where the roulette wheel lands, not for player skill.

The sad thing is they do this purposefully.  Gambling messes with our pattern recognition censors, and gives us a cheap dope hit when we get favorable results.  If we could actually pick our builds the replayability and often general difficulty of these games would be exposed as lacking.  So many of their abilities would be "never pick" if you had the choice lol.  The only thing worse than the RNG is the grind they pair with it, carefully designed to slow your progress enough that you'll just give them money instead of playing the game.

This is a key factor in why I appreciate DST.  The game has very few low drop-rate items and beyond some world-gen quirks your pathing through the game, and ability to perform depends much more on player skill and knowledge than random chance.  There are some things that can catch you of guard, but these mostly stem from the player overlooking the problem rather than some random "lul u ded b/c" nonsense.

That all has very little to do with the cheese or automation present in DST.  Those random buff games aren't sandbox games, they are an adventure hack & slash.  Their game play is strictly linear, you enter a dungeon and clear it, whether you win or lose you return to the character menu to repeat it again.  The game loop is short, and your interactions are extremely limited focusing on a single metric - character combat power.  DST is a sandbox game focusing on long instanced worlds, emergent gameplay, player creativity, and non-linear play.  Roguelike qualities can fit in either format, but obviously the qualities that appear in each depends mostly on the game type.  Classic Rogue - the original one - was both a sandbox AND a hack and slash dungeon adventure and trust there were ways to automate farm.  There was also real risk, if you died your character was wiped - imagine that in your rng buff games lol.

Being able to automate is an essential feature in many sandbox games.  It is a thing to do in a game that wants you to have many things to do.  It also fits very well with non-linear play.  Nothing stops me from pathing through DST focusing on farms first, amassing resources to help overcome the challenge of the fights.  That is one of the great things about its non-linear play, working as an elegant way to give the player's a difficulty slider without actually coding one in.  If the bosses like dfly or exploring the ruins are too difficult for me then I can focus on setting up a base and amassing resources until I have enough armor and healing to simply out-last them.  As my player skill improves the amount of resources I need drops until I am rushing them straight on without needing to farm up a stack of perogies and pig skins first.  I really appreciate this game pattern because it focuses on developing the real knowledge and skill of the player, not rng luck shenanigans.

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m very confused now.. isn’t that the entire point of Planar Damage so that Weapons, Armors & strategies without the “Planar” Tag are less effective?

The point of planar is to version out damages that are "invalid" for the fight, but that is only one small element of why these fights are strict.  I've done them all with and without planar, the fight is not that different - just longer and a bit more risky.  Although not THAT much more risky really.  Bone armor still ignores 1 hit so you always have that cushion if you did AFW first, but even with planar defense armor is pretty weak.  Its not like you can free-tank these bosses just for switching to planar lol.

They are strict because Klei decided to design them to be.  Them nerfing lureplant because it might be useful in blocking Scrappy pig Klei is enforcing the strict nature of the fight.  "Do it this way, and only this way."  Planar enforces the strict fight by acting as a blanket nerf *everything* in the game that isn't "late game approved."

3 hours ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Good to know

I wouldn't try arguing with Mike imo, feels like he's high when he tries to write something.

Well, its fun for me to chat about these things.  Regardless of what Mike thinks, its a good chance to evaluate my own thoughts.  Even if he is the one I'm directly responding to there are others who might read, participate, or even just enjoy the discussion.

Edited March 23 by Yuuko

[goblinball]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

But it’s boring!!! 

That’s what you think, but other people might disagree. It’s entirely a subjective thing. You shouldn’t push your beliefs of what is and isn’t fun onto other players just because you don’t understand their perspective.

Edited March 23 by goblinball

[marioespinho]

Honestly, I don't think I will ever understand why some people care so much about something that is completely optional and doesn't affect their gameplay or experience in any way.

If this were a competitive game, a game that has a community marketplace of any sort or an open world game where people can just ruin your experience without you being able to do anything about it, I would understand. But the way DST works, I can't really understand the whole problem about cheeses/exploits/mods/etc.

Other than the "Uncompromising DST" purists who get their ego damaged because others might get the same rewards they do in their games without going through the same process to get them, I can't really understand why would these things bother you so much.

[Captain_Rage]

22 hours ago, Ohan said:

Only maxwell is allowed to completely break boss movement mechanics apparently 

Which makes him more bossy than the bosses.

[landromat]

22 hours ago, _zwb said:

It would affect the difficulty of the game if left untouched.

There's already one published

yup, EVERYONE, ENJOY OLD DST WITH ONE SIMPLE TRICK

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3192596658

I'm so happy we restored piece again. Everyone can be happy now (besides console players, screw them)

Edited March 23 by landromat

[00petar00]

31 minutes ago, landromat said:

yup, EVERYONE, ENJOY OLD DST WITH ONE SIMPLE TRICK

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3192596658

I'm so happy we restored piece again. Everyone can be happy now (besides console players, screw them)

How about devs make the game more casual and you can go use uncomp mod so you can enjoy the old dst with one simple trick.

Its funny how you comment about balance changes yet mock players like this by suggesting mod, If that is what you truly think you wouldn't care as much to be on the beta forums.

Edited March 23 by 00petar00

[landromat]

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

How about devs make the game more casual and you can go use uncomp mod so you can enjoy the old dst with one simple trick.

Uncomp mod lacks polishing, they're doing great job but that's still fan-made project

8 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

mock players like this by suggesting mod

That's the solution for your problem with lureplants so you can keep cheating in the game. what's wrong?

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, goblinball said:

That’s what you think, but other people might disagree. It’s entirely a subjective thing. You shouldn’t push your beliefs of what is and isn’t fun onto other players just because you don’t understand their perspective.

I understand that “cheating” has never been fun for me, and I also understand that game developers saw how players just wanted to literally skip doing anything in the game ever and decided hey.. we can get filthy rich off that, so let’s make them pay real money to unlock all characters faster, or progress battle pass levels.

I’m from a decade where there wasn’t even a GameShark (Paid cheating device that unlocks content for You)

So no, actually I don’t and will never understand what you find “fun” about breaking a games intended way of play.

But I do sit back and laugh at how the people making the $$$ saw how players just wanted to skip doing anything & then plagued games with Microtransactions to skip progress.

[Yuuko]

26 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I understand that “cheating” has never been fun for me, and I also understand that game developers saw how players just wanted to literally skip doing anything in the game ever and decided hey.. we can get filthy rich off that, so let’s make them pay real money to unlock all characters faster, or progress battle pass levels.

I’m from a decade where there wasn’t even a GameShark (Paid cheating device that unlocks content for You)

So no, actually I don’t and will never understand what you find “fun” about breaking a games intended way of play.

But I do sit back and laugh at how the people making the $$$ saw how players just wanted to skip doing anything & then plagued games with Microtransactions to skip progress.

Lureplant isn't cheating, nor does it cost money.  There are plenty of things in DST to do even when cheesing bosses, and building auto-farms.

Cheating is violating the rules of the game.  Unless you're accessing admin restricted options (console commands) or injecting code (mods) to change the game to your advantage you're not cheating.

The only microtransactions in DST are for skins and a few characters, most of which can be obtained with spools just by playing.  Whatever gripe you're on, it seems completely unrelated to this.  Probably you should direct your ire to games like

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Guidus, and Dungeon Slashers

 

[marioespinho]

Actually, even before gameshark games had A LOT of bugs, exploits and cheat codes for a ton of things. What we DIDN'T have was a way to patch games, so there was no people whining for companies to remove exploits from games. They just played their way and other would do the same. Good times...