Klei fixed the lureplant cheese, a really bad decisions.

[Wenhelxing]

7 minutes ago, lenship2 said:

tmw literally pointing out a logical fallacy in an argument is apparently a nerd thing now

I don't understand the contribution you are trying to make to this discussion by nitpicking literal flaws from someone whose first language isn't even English. I've made my point clear that these individuals want to remove a feature that's been present for a long time and that people like me have used to play the game a certain way. The result of the feature's removal is that we will have one less method to play the game as well as being forced to play it a certain way that we don't prefer. It will affect us and not you; please don't force others to play how you feel, like how the game should be played. 

[_zwb]

Just now, Wenhelxing said:

please don't force others to play how you feel, like how the game should be played. 

We're not, Klei is.

[Wenhelxing]

That's why I made the thread in the first place

[_zwb]

1 minute ago, Wenhelxing said:

That's why I made the thread in the first place

Don't worry, Klei would add lure plant method back for boss other than scrappy werepig, in case you can't figure out another way to abuse the poor path finding.

[Wenhelxing]

Just now, _zwb said:

Don't worry, Klei would add lure plant method back for boss other than scrappy werepig, in case you can't figure out another way to abuse the poor path finding.

I figured it out about 3 hours ago. I didn't want to make any more statements regarding this since it's already solving what I and the others are concerned about. 呦西

[Uedo]

But it's being brought back, so the conversation is over right? Confirmation from devs that lureplants will not be trample-able soon.

16 hours ago, EatenCheetos said:

That is a strawman fallacy

 I mean, if this is a free-forum to be pendant, it wouldn't be a fallacy. You're thinking of an argument, a strawman is by design, it wouldn't be false as it's achieving its intended purpose as a red-herring. 

17 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And considering Klei is highly unlikely to reverse their decision to nerf both Lureplant and Spider Nest cheese.
 

By highly unlikely do you mean the post where they said they'd reverse it? Cause you're incorrect, yet again @Mike23Ua

15 hours ago, _zwb said:

Don't worry, Klei would add lure plant method back for boss other than scrappy werepig, in case you can't figure out another way to abuse the poor path finding.

(edit: Redacted this section as it was a bit passive aggressive and Im not proud of it)

Edited March 23 by Uedo

[Faintly Macabre]

16 minutes ago, Uedo said:

But it's being brought back, so the conversation is over right? Confirmation from devs that lureplants will not be trample-able soon.

They actually only said that they're probably going to make the fix not applicable to older bosses, and only until they can give old fights like AFW some TLC. Until they do so in the beta branch or the patch officially drops on Thursday, it's up in the air, and the conversation is still being had because some people are hoping they can change their minds.

[Uedo]

2 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

They actually only said that they're probably going to make the fix not applicable to older bosses, and only until they can give old fights like AFW some TLC. Until they do so in the beta branch or the patch officially drops on Thursday, it's up in the air, and the conversation is still being had because some people are hoping they can change their minds.

Ah right, the FW fight is now blockable in its entirety without a lureplant and with a really easy to access item. It has become worse, not better. people have literally figured out how to do the same without waiting for spring, this 'fix' has just highlighted a really obscure method that is better... so what was achieved? Like i literally have to question the motivation for the fix, cause it hasn't fixed a single thing with the fight, it's now easier to do with the current new exploit and if that lost its ability to be indestructable it will just lead to people any number of methods to acheive the exact same result. I'm really sorry, but contstantly trying to tackle this bug is just such wasted time, you cannot prevent cheese, it'll always exist. focus on developing the game, or, as i'd like, put it in maintenance mode and retire the content cycle. Stop wasting time on patching bugs like this, it's a bandaid to ONE method of cheesing, Klei have fixed nothing and due to how they built the game, will be completely unable to fix most methods of cheese. Unless we wanna do rework v3 to address the new cheese methods the skill trees have brought with them.

Stop wasting time fixing exploits when you're unable to fix the root cause Klei, you take time and resources away from dev time and we're all dancing around the fact that the game is spaghetti code on top of spaghetti code. The game needs a overhaul in order to fix the fundemental issues it has, and if Klei cared about actual balance they'd address some of the issues people have been raising for literal years, most of the time through the bug tracker. They don't. They won't. They can't. At this point the game looks like a garble of rudimentary LUA and it'll be left like that, of course it will.

Edited March 23 by Uedo
reasons

[Faintly Macabre]

11 minutes ago, Uedo said:

Ah right, the FW fight is now blockable in its entirety without a lureplant and with a really easy to access item. It has become worse, not better. people have literally figured out how to do the same without waiting for spring, this 'fix' has just highlighted a really obscure method that is better... so what was achieved?

I was purely just trying to let you know what was going on. I'd probably switch to doing the fight normally after it's made a little more manageable (and they've already made some adjustments to controller play that might make me do so now), but I'm not in favor of keeping the exploit patched out (or patching out other variations, for that matter).

Edited March 23 by Faintly Macabre

[Uedo]

2 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

I was purely just trying to let you know what was going on. I'd probably switch to doing the fight normally after it's made a little more manageable (and they've already made some adjustments to controller play that might make me do so now), but I'm not in favor of keeping the exploit patched out (or patching out other variations, for that matter).

I don't think your initial post addresses what I was saying, I already knew everything you said. I also don't think this post is useful too, you're telling me about your misunderstanding with what i said, I'm not really responsible for your lack of understanding nor this explanation that I didn't need (as, again, I understood you and had no issue). 

I guess, from my view, you decided to tell me things I didn't ask about, nor need. And now you're doing it again. Cheers I guess, but I truly didn't want/ask/need a rundown of what people were doing - I can probably read the thread myself if that's ok my love? <3

[Fufuji]

9 hours ago, Sacco said:

i am against boring and free cheeses who don't require anything special like this.

klei said that they want to somehow "fix" this change to the lureplants and i am pretty sad about it if i have to be honest.

i know that everyone has to enjoy the game the way they want, but a boss shouldn't be supposed to be destroyed without any effort.

that's not boring.That's something that helps players pass boss fights which they thinks boring. So the more simple, the less boring.

The cheese isn't 100% free and requires no effort -- players must search the internet and follow some videos to use this cheese, this is studying. Players who don't want to study will just abandon the game, not making effort searching how to defeat AFW easier.

[Faintly Macabre]

32 minutes ago, Uedo said:

I don't think your initial post addresses what I was saying, I already knew everything you said. I also don't think this post is useful too, you're telling me about your misunderstanding with what i said, I'm not really responsible for your lack of understanding nor this explanation that I didn't need (as, again, I understood you and had no issue). 

I guess, from my view, you decided to tell me things I didn't ask about, nor need. And now you're doing it again. Cheers I guess, but I truly didn't want/ask/need a rundown of what people were doing - I can probably read the thread myself if that's ok my love? <3

Everybody's so nice. It's hard to imagine how someone might get hot under the collar around here.

I quoted you supposing things that are not set in stone and identified what those were, and answered a literal question, but sure, I'll defer to your obviously complete understanding of your surroundings. As you were.

[prettynuggets]

to me personally feel like every cheese can be fun but i always thought anykind of cheese bound to be fixed soon or later. just like BQ oven its not even an easy cheese to make but they fixed it.
its just about time someone made another strategy to kill bosses when the old one get patched ...
but klei should made their mind, why it works on old bosses but cant on new bosses, i kinda hate inconsistency
 

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, prettynuggets said:

but klei should made their mind, why it works on old bosses but cant on new bosses, i kinda hate inconsistency
 

I agree on this.  If ur gonna do it, then do it!  Take it on the chin and make the change.  There will just be other cheese (already is) so its not like we won't just see new guides pop up...  Unless players feel they can no longer share interesting things about DST with the community b/c Klei will smash whatever they enjoy about it.

Edited March 23 by Yuuko

[fpx007]

51 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

There will just be other cheese (already is) so its not like we won't just see new guides pop up...

Yes! Lureplants patched, we have spider dens; spider dens patched, we still have beefalos, rock lobsters… There are plenty of creatures for players to block boss path finding. Players cheese with the former 2 simply merely because they were ones with most convenience; if they have to, they can still choose many other things. It is almost impossible for klei to patch all these creature interactions out, unless rebuild the hitbox system.

Spoiler

Thus klei personally admit that the whole hitbox mechanic they’ve built for 10+ years is completely a joke. What a disaster

 

[Mike23Ua]

Isn’t FuelWeaver infused with some really powerful shadow magic anyway? The very SAME Shadow Magic we often see Charlie do incredible things with just waving her hand around a bit?

Id literally roll all over the floor laughing if Klei ever updated old boss content, because I got this strong feeling FuelWeaver would kinda just go “Yeah.. uhm No.” and then proceed to wave his hand around with shadow magic and make all your Lureplants, spider dens, or whatever else you want to place down disappear out of his way.

The very same way Charlie can just alter and change things as seen in the very starting screen animation of DST where she can’t settle on wanting things to be pretty or goth.

[hoxi]

30 minutes ago, fpx007 said:

we still have beefalos, rock lobsters…

Except those are actual alive NPCs that move around, can be attacked, but not trampled unless said trample deals actual damage, not a pseudo-structure-npc that has health instead of a workable component. If you can do that with them, that's not an oversight, unlike with lureplants or similar (though addressing them isn't out of the question but it's up to them).

30 minutes ago, fpx007 said:

Thus klei personally admit that the whole hitbox mechanic they’ve built for 10+ years is completely a joke. What a disaster

Not really the case at all, could've been done and maintained over the years by different people and things can get missed, it just happens. And regardless of that, it's not admitting "this feature we made is a joke", but rather that they're trying to look into it now because they wanted to prevent the same exploit from immediately trivializing the new Werepig fight, which isn't a bad thing.

If they caught this before releasing Fuelweaver? No one would be overexaggerating with some of the complaints and being so negative about it (especially the ones that immediately assumed it was done to screw over the people that used it for Fuelweaver or glass farms), or on the other side of the coin, telling people to cry about it because elitism and pettiness.

Edited March 23 by hoxi

[fpx007]

25 minutes ago, hoxi said:

If you can do that with them

That is easy. Just use lureplants block path finding of such mobs (perhaps with some “bait” to control their movement), and then use these mobs to block bosses. Since these mobs are in the way, bosses don’t touch lureplant thus being unable to trample them.

The solution for klei is easy, too. With the current concept, klei can make said mobs tramplable, remove hitbox of mobs/lureplants/bosses, or allow mobs trample lureplants as well. Regardless of the choice, klei is completely denying its old game designs.

Spoiler

Actually, people are complaining not simply because klei remove the cheese. You see, the rework of ancient guardian removed the pillar cheese, but almost no people are complaining. This one becomes so controversial because klei chooses easist yet least pleasing way. 

Rework these boss fights is definitely a good choice. But even without actual reworks to individual bosses, klei may also improve creature pathfinding, adjust creature aggro(so bosses attacks instead of simply trampling said structure-like creatures). Among all viable choices, klei chose perhaps the least convincing one, so many people complain.

 

[hoxi]

sigh, and yet two obvious points keep getting ignored/missed:

• The update is huge as it is and they're still addressing a lot of things. Plus there could be more stuff that gets changed or fixed.
• The change was simple, not lazy, and pretty damn reasonable given that release is in a week (plus the point above), and the main goal was to prevent the new fight from being trivialized on day 1, which is completely valid. Expecting changes on the magnitude of the stuff you mentioned would've been reasonable at the start of this beta maybe, but not at this point.

They already said they're revisiting this change as well as old boss fights, yet you act like this change is a completely final end be all thing and that they took the easy/lazy route. Hell, maybe they'll change it before release so it only affects the Werepig, we'll see.

And yes, the change is removing a cheese, but it's been said it might not be final, they might change it or revert it or something. It was, once again, not intended to specifically affect the old fight or other farms, but rather the new one that they've been working on along the many other QoL changes, features and improvements. It's rather annoying how some people try to diminish their work over it from armchair programmer/designer stances over a single thing that was taken personally.

As someone who has been at the end of having people get into almost conspiracy theory levels of theorizing over the smallest of changes done in a game (and I didn't have the luxury to reply, talk or discuss with said people, or maybe that was a blessing), it's really sad to see it here, where the devs can actually talk and communicate, and it's as if they said nothing. There's a better way to get the message across.

Edited March 23 by hoxi

[_zwb]

5 hours ago, Uedo said:

I'm glad you're pointing out what Klei said, it's good to arbitrarily point things out that have already been pointed out, it helps people have things pointed out to them when they've already been pointed out by Klei, when they pointed it out. 

If you are upset about me pointing out something already pointed out just say it, what's all this passive aggressive talking about?

[Pedro cc]

try this method instead

 

[Mike23Ua]

7 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

try this method instead

 

This looks so boring that I’d rather be forced to play Mary Kate and Ashley sweet 16 to unlock all the unlockables for my little sister again cause my parents told me to.

[Pedro cc]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

This looks so boring that I’d rather be forced to play Mary Kate and Ashley sweet 16 to unlock all the unlockables for my little sister again cause my parents told me to.

I honestly hated the lureplant cheese because it was painfully slow and it encouraged other players in the server I play to fill the atrium with houndius and lureplants

[_zwb]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This looks so boring that I’d rather be forced to play Mary Kate and Ashley sweet 16 to unlock all the unlockables for my little sister again cause my parents told me to.

Oddly specific

[Frosty_Mentos]

There's no point to ruins after couple of raids but to get green gems and replenish orange staves. I have over 300 thule now without a good use but to make walls for decor.

I can't duplicate moonstone without the cheese and I'd wanna get plenty of it for pathlights or something. It sucks to lose out on this ability to automate fuelweaver farming cause there's no point on battling him after two fights.

People that complain that this cheese is 'bad' or 'should have always been patched' clearly are tryhards than anything >:(

If it doesn't benefit you besides being petty over that those that resource farm are denied of the resources from that the cheese brings - clearly you are here only to deny others of the way they want to play a sandbox game.

Even if you don't care, I soloed fuelweaver fights for enough times to not to want to bother about it and just gather resources, cause I find resource farming actually relaxing and fun. Clearly those of you that don't understand that kinda play and won't acknowledge it but some exploits like such makes lives easier and lowers the need for unsatisfying fights reduced to bare minimum effort.

Celestial champion is everything that fuelweaver will never be. A satisfying fight. Fixing the exploit didn't fix void walking fight exploit either way, nor gunpowder is nerfed for me to destroy fuelweaver. It's stuff that I'm not used to doing, but will have to if it's to get rid of the hurdle of needing to face him ever again.

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This looks so boring that I’d rather be forced to play Mary Kate and Ashley sweet 16 to unlock all the unlockables for my little sister again cause my parents told me to.

If you don't like to do it - you DON'T need to do it. Like anyone else out there, cheesing is an option. It's a whole another thing to deny anyone of the ability to farm this boss just for the ruin regeneration.