Klei fixed the lureplant cheese, a really bad decisions.

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Yuuko said:

Lureplant isn't cheating, nor does it cost money.  There are plenty of things in DST to do even when cheesing bosses, and building auto-farms.

Cheating is violating the rules of the game.  Unless you're accessing admin restricted options (console commands) or injecting code (mods) to change the game to your advantage you're not cheating.

The only microtransactions in DST are for skins and a few characters, most of which can be obtained with spools just by playing.  Whatever gripe you're on, it seems completely unrelated to this.  Probably you should direct your ire to games like

 

How can you consider using a lureplant as not being “cheating” when even DreadStone Walls have a durability before they break? Lol… I give up… there’s no point.

[hoxi]

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

How is FW fight trivialized on day 1? Its faster to kill FW fighting normally, unless you are Wormwood you need to wait for spring and get lucky with lureplants and get them before other players do.

Not FW, the Scrappy Werepig, they stated they made the change for this reason. The update isn't even fully out yet so we can't make assumptions yet, they might add a Scrappy Werepig check until things are further addressed, or not, we'll see.

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

They are revisiting boss changes and yet I don't like the new bosses as much as old ones that have so many options available to dealing with them. At first I did think that nightmare werepig fight was very unique but now every boss is getting fatigue/stun mechanic, some type of charge.

Yes, as I said (though I lost track of where I said it and where I didn't), I'd prefer if they didn't give him a stun or fatigue mechanic. The fight could already be made more interesting by making the bone circle attack be able to be used during the entire fight, not just in the first phase. There's already some potential improvements and tweaks. Shadow creatures not deaggroing is another, it doesn't have to apply to all cases, but it's a pain point in this fight that already has you dealing with a lot (I wouldn't complain if it was done as a general thing though.

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

They can't be cheesed or exploited and I don't think scrappy werepig needs to be changed so that lureplant doesn't stop his movement, that is just removing an option from players.Old bosses while simple are more interesting as they are unique from each other.

I partially agree and disagree on that, some old bosses have pain points that new ones don't have, but new ones being too same-y is also a pain point on its own. Although this being an option being removed is arguable, the update hasn't officially been launched yet. Now, if it was done after the update launched and the fight was added to the live branch, then sure, that's similar to it being removed from FW and other things.

7 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

So it is kind of final discussion as this is the start of patching these cheeses/exploits, If this passes without discussion like you say, this one is only being brought back until old bosses are going to be revisited and at that point it would be removed. 

I don't want to see all game bosses to be the same or similar to post rift bosses.

It has happened in the past like when rifts were first introduced and it destroyed builds, same with boulders for cave rifts that didn't have protection at the start. Klei can't think of all the outcomes but these were obviously going to be a problem yet it had to be player feedback for there to be changes. You are talking as If klei can't make a mistake or think about all of the player uses for lureplants before patching them.

It's not final because the update isn't live, and even if it was, they said they want to look into both the exploits and boss fights, that means it's up for discussions and feedback. Yet (and here's my problem) people assume they'll be incompetent, or that they're dead set on doing things one specific way when they alluded into the opposite of that, etc. People are calling them lazy and a bunch of other words over it, or on the other hand, elitists are going out of their way to try to humiliate or be mean to people that use these exploits to not deal with frustration (which is completely valid, it's a huge part of why I mod things in the first place).

I'm not saying that Klei can't do mistakes. There's plenty of stuff I dislike from recent and old updates, but it's the immediate assumption that developers are incompetent or lazy, when everything they've done so far in this beta, shows the complete opposite of that.

I do agree that maybe they should've made a specific check for the Scrappy Werepig and just waited until doing more adjustments, but again, the update isn't live, so I don't count stuff inside a beta as it's not meant to be officially released yet and it only affects people playtesting the beta. They could still add some prefab == "daywalker2" checks to the workable functions they added, before the update is released (not sure if that'd be enough as a band-aid solution as I haven't tested I don't see why it wouldn't be).

Edit:

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

How can you consider using a lureplant as not being “cheating” when even DreadStone Walls have a durability before they break? Lol… I give up… there’s no point.

Yes and? Sorry chief, that still doesn't count as "cheating" (the concept is always subjective and tangible outside of specifically using cheat codes or commands or so, and even then, if you wanna use them in a private game, that's completely fine), it was an oversight but it's still fair within the game's rules. I personally find it boring but everyone can play the way they want as long as they don't try to police others over it.

Edited March 23 by hoxi

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

How can you consider using a lureplant as not being “cheating” when even DreadStone Walls have a durability before they break? Lol… I give up… there’s no point.

At what point is it cheating?  When you kill a lureplant, the game gives you the item.  The game controls placement of the item.  The game controls interaction between the item and other mobs.  This is a game designed around letting you destroy, build, and move things around.  tbh whether Klei changes it to be trampled or not, its interaction was by the code.  Its a nerf, not even a bug fix really.

Really just wrap your head arounds this point b/c it is genuinely the core of DST's initial design philosophy - the game is about giving you many tools with different properties and it is up to you to decide what is good or bad, and for what.  Walls are bad for blocking bosses because they get trampled, but lureplants are good for it.  The logic of why is "b/c it is."

Why are some crock pot dishes very expensive compared to the value they add?  Some weapon damage, effects, and durability are horrible for what they cost to craft?  Some structures are completely superfluous due to the nature of the game elements they interact with?  Like, who needs a moondial when the moon cycle is hard-set to specific dates until VERY late game when you can basically give yourself a full moon at any point, and predict a new moon 10 days after?

Asking why the lureplant acts the way it does while walls and pillars (who's purpose isn't to act as a barrier anyway so odd comparison) is not the point of the game.  The constant has odd logic by its own nature, it is IN THEME of the game to have things be a bit nonsense.

Edited March 23 by Yuuko

[Frosty_Mentos]

4 hours ago, EatenCheetos said:

Consider yourself reported

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think I even want to play a game anymore where the developers are too afraid to step on a few toes of tired well known methods (exploits) to play their game.

It shows that the games own developers are too afraid of losing a few old players, in the pursuit for a better vision of the games future.

I’m glad that Klei has finally fixed the inventory management bug for console players where your inventory quickly became a jumbled mess.. maybe this will massively improve my ability to fight the games big bad bosses, since the update isn’t out yet, I’ll have to wait and see if this changes anything for me significantly or not. Fingers crossed..

[Gashzer]

Rip my post.

Guess this is my new home now 

[_zwb]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Rip my post.

Guess this is my new home now 

Bro's gonna get the whole forums locked

[Gashzer]

5 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Bro's gonna get the whole forums locked

I think Klei still blame me for the whole wigfrid moonlight diaden controversy.

They shut me down so fast now 

[Trontar]

I think this should be a world option, like lureplant collision on/off. The FW fight is way too finicky on console as well, especially playing with certain characters (low hp or sanity..etc.) the targeting makes it difficult to fight, especially killing hands and trying to rid of weavers at the same time. The nerf makes us fight the game normally (without abusing maxwell) when the actual fight on console is a nightmare unless you play a lot with Wanda/ Wolfgang or strong characters or have other players with you. Not to mention lag doesn’t help as well. Otherwise, I’d use winona, which feels like cheating, but the resources for it are pretty expensive if you don’t farm a lot of them. I’m still not really sure if Lureplants should still have collision or not though. I can just practice the FW fight in the end of it all. Which yes, mentioned above is boring and difficult, but it’s called getting better at the game!! I literally can’t understand why you would leave the game or start whining when a bug is removed, even if the game was literally intended to be hard, and after that, there are still options in the world settings that make it so easy to the point you can’t even die. Though lots of people don’t play the game as intended, so I’ll probably leave that untouched.

This is all my opinion and very little facts though. 

 

Edited March 23 by Trontar

[Cruvimaster]

It all seems very strange. It borders on insanity to ask the developers to return a serious programming error in the game. And it would be even crazier if the developers accepted this. In the last update there were already the changes that the developers wanted to make to the AF mechanics.


 

 

 

Edited March 23 by Cruvimaster

[Mike23Ua]

I’m pretty sure the genius devs at Klei have already thought of this solution, but in the Hamlet DLC there is actually Turf that you can not place structures on top of at all..

This would “Fix” both Dragonfly Great Wall of China Exploits, and AFW Lureplant/Spider Nest Wall exploits..

And more importantly it would give ME (the host of the world) the ability to FORCE people who join my game not to use these exploit methods I don’t want them using.

OTHERWISE: I have to password lock my room, invite in only people I trust to play the way I want the server played, and then kick/ban everyone who builds a wall despite me clearly stating I don’t want them built in the bosses arena.

I will repeat myself one more time: There are actual ground turfs in the hamlet DLC that prevent item placement.

So then someone tell me why Klei hasn’t implemented that as an option for Boss Arenas?

Its the simplest solution to make everyone happy.

Although my personal opinion is that having larger mobs (giants, bosses, Koalephant etc..) being able to “Trample” smaller less significant objects (Lureplants, Spider Dens) is actually a GOOD design decision, not only does it make perfect damn sense, but it also forces players to utilize walls for what walls were intended to be used for- Rather than finding some easier exploitive method.

[Nikki Darks]

You can really tell who is awful at the game and who is actually good, just by reading through these replies.

 

[_zwb]

40 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

a serious programming error

It's not a programming error, everything is working just fine in terms of code logic. This is a game design error

[TheTrueStickman]

If people are just going to bypass the mechanics of a fight using a decently common catch-all strategy, why shouldn't the devs patch or nerf it?
It's pretty standard design to keep the fights actually meaning something, and yeah while it sucks for massive lategame worlds, that's not what the game is about, and shouldn't be the focus of it's design, it should be supported yes, but if the choice is between the design of the main game and supporting a specific playstyle, you should not be surprised when they choose the former, the game just isn't meant to go on for that long in a single run, you can push it there if you want to but you shouldn't expect special treatment for it.

You can debate all you like about wether or not using lureplants/fossils is cheating, personally i'd say so, but regardless, i do have to ask, why does it matter? you're making the fight irrelevant wether it's cheating or not, so why not just cheat in the first place? what's the difference between killing FW with oneshot or waiting for him to die with lureplants? you're bypassing the fight either way.

[Uedo]

21 minutes ago, TheTrueStickman said:

what's the difference between killing FW with oneshot or waiting for him to die with lureplants? you're bypassing the fight either way.

Yeah totally, it feels a little more satisfying because there's a small amount of set-up - that's probably all there is to it. I still think it doesn't matter, if you wanna bypass the fight you will, It was just pretty quick - i'll miss it if it goes, It's not as impactful as it seems.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, Cruvimaster said:

It all seems very strange. It borders on insanity to ask the developers to return a serious programming error in the game. 

It wasn't a serious programming error, or a bug.  It was a unique interaction.  Lureplant also has wildfire priority which enables some very unique ways to manage wildfire, like placing lureplants under the foliage of tall trees to greatly extend the wildfire-proof range of the tall trees.  As long as the lureplant is in range, it will be the target of wildfire BUT if its also under a tall tree it is immune, therefore no wildfires occur within range.

That said - I think going back on it is bad.  If they're going to strip this function, then they should do it.  Half measures like "This boss interacts this way but other bosses interact that way" is inconsistent, which is also bad.  Planar type butting in is annoying enough, we gotta deal with special rules for Scrappy WP now too?  Just do it Klei.

2 hours ago, Sir Noel said:

Honestly I think a fair compromise would be to have the concept of being able to block a bosses movements be reworked to only be possible after the first kill.

This was sorta the way, but lureplants got new avenues of production include Wormwood's skill tree giving them to us on spawn.  It would be unnatural to just say "first fight has to be this way" though.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And more importantly it would give ME (the host of the world) the ability to FORCE people who join my game not to use these exploit methods I don’t want them using.

OTHERWISE: I have to password lock my room, invite in only people I trust to play the way I want the server played, and then kick/ban everyone who builds a wall despite me clearly stating I don’t want them built in the bosses arena.

How many times has someone joined your world and cheesed AFW b/c you didn't password your lobby?

Is it greater than 0?

A lot of stuff has too happen to get the AFW fight, its about as much work as doing AFW its self.  Cheese or not the whole ordeal is quite a task.

1 hour ago, TheTrueStickman said:

If people are just going to bypass the mechanics of a fight using a decently common catch-all strategy, why shouldn't the devs patch or nerf it?

Its not really a catch all.  Some bosses can be blocked with lure plant to good effect, but setups are VERY boss dependent.  I know a few different setups depending on what I'm interested in doing.  It is part of the game to gather resources, build structures, and relocate mobs.  Its not a mistake the game gives us the lureplant bulb when we kill it, and allows us too plant it else where.  Its not relevant to very many fights.

Edited March 23 by Yuuko

[Guille6785]

53 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

You can really tell who is awful at the game and who is actually good, just by reading through these replies.

 

everyone other than me is bad at the game, case closed

[lobomau71]

Please revert this change ... Not everyone plays on PC with 999 mods and not everybody is glermz that can kill any boss with eyes closed on day 1 ... And SOME OF USE PLAY ( or suffer) ON CONSOLE!!!

It's like console players have been the ugly duck of DST, and now it's another blade on our chest.

I challenge anyone who asked for this stupid fix to try and kill fuel weaver with a controller and no mods ... Yeah try it and let me know if you still want this crappy fix that I am sure that only those obnoxious Super Mega Elite Players wanted ... Those that think even Wes is OP and should be nerfed.

I have been a huge fan of the DS universe and it's been my only game since I got Don't Starve on my PS3 many many many years ago, but if this change doesn't get reverted and I am unable to kill fuel weaver ever again, I guess it's finally time to abandon the game ... 

It saddens me, you have no idea how much pain I am feeling, but I can't accept the ideia that there will be a huge part of the game that I won't be able to do just because I play on console, alone because nobody I know plays DST on ps and because I'm 52 and I don't have the reflexes of a 14 yold any more.

27th when the update gets released on console it will be the last time I play DST, the only reason I still keept a PS5 and pay for the PS+ ...

Bye Klei, it was wonderful while it lasted.

Edited March 23 by lobomau71
Spelling

[prettynuggets]

i love how dramatic people is sometimes 

[Faintly Macabre]

5 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m from a decade where there wasn’t even a GameShark (Paid cheating device that unlocks content for You)

I dunno what decade you're supposedly from, but the Game Genie hit the market for the NES in 1990, there was a couple of cheat devices for home computers in the mid-80s, and cheat codes go back even further than that. The idea of cheating in video games and having fun doing it is very likely older than you, so let's not make this some kind of generational thing. If you're even older than me, it's probably not by much.

And by the way, I don't agree with people trying to say that stuff like this lureplant exploit isn't cheating. For my money, it is. But I think the term is subjective enough (What are the "rules"? Is it based in intent? Is it based in the programming? etc.) that I'm not going to say that people who disagree are just wrong.

But like... who cares?

Since Mike likes to bring other games from all genres into the discussion, I've got a doozy for you: Eiji Aonuma, the 61-year-old Japanese man who's been a project leader for the Zelda series since the Ocarina of Time, and Hidemaro Fujibayashi, the 51-year-old director of many of them over them over the last two decades or so, revealed in an interview last year a while after the release of Tears of the Kingdom that the "Ascend" ability initially existed as a debug tool (which is what many cheats start as), so they could get around more easily for testing things out. They eventually decided to make it an actual player ability because they thought players could benefit from it a lot too, both for convenience and just as a puzzle solving tool. And their reasoning: "to be blunt and honest, cheating can be fun." Aonuma even went as far as to say that cheating and exploiting game behavior is one of his favorite ways to play.

So like, I dunno man. Do you think your game play and design philosophy is more legit than one of the godfathers of Zelda?

To me, it's (at least on some level) understandable for Klei to decide that this crosses the boundaries of the freedom they want players to have. But it's every bit as understandable for players to want to have that freedom. And if it's not actually hurting anybody (and nobody can seem to demonstrate that it does), it really does not make sense for you to have so strong an opinion about it.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And more importantly it would give ME (the host of the world) the ability to FORCE people who join my game not to use these exploit methods I don’t want them using.

OTHERWISE: I have to password lock my room, invite in only people I trust to play the way I want the server played, and then kick/ban everyone who builds a wall despite me clearly stating I don’t want them built in the bosses arena.

I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt here, and respond to this as if this is truly material to your decision-making: there are a million perfectly good reasons for you to password lock your servers and be selective of who you play with. If "somebody might set up lureplant blockades and kill AFW" is the biggest one for you, you really ought to reconsider. You're depriving yourself for a whole lot of nothing.

Edited March 23 by Faintly Macabre

[. . .]

I like the change.

[Faintly Macabre]

[Mr Giggio]

Really tho? U think that killing an end boss with no effort exploiting a mechanic that is not suposed to be here is good design to have around?

On 3/22/2024 at 4:43 PM, Well-met said:

this is the only game ive seen where its players will religiously do everything they can to not play the game

LMAO WHY SO ACCURATE 

[SapoLover]

No shame on using the command console if you find the fight boring or don't want to put any effort.

Spoiler

Why so emotionally attached to a cheese that has an equally accesible replacement?

 

Edited March 24 by SapoLover

[SSneaky]

"Uh oh.

Bad Decision Mark Klei."