An insult to Don't Starve

[Milordo]

Klei, you did a big whoopie doopsie this time, even more than the last ones.

A skill tree to everybody. Truly the pinnacle of how bad can we go in the modern ds, together with the "new content" that begins in 2019 (I'm still blind about the rifts things and couldn't play in this period, but by avoiding spoilers I read and heard people thoughts and it seems the same "are we getting moonquayed?") 

And I warned you about this long ago, in my famoust post of the Wilson Rework

You could have gone anywhere, create a lot of your crazy ideas but instead opted to destroy the fundations of your game, by creating again a second round of characters reworks (when you said you were tired about it, so what's the deal?), in the most lazy and atrocius way....by making Don't Starve an MMO... or GDR. Whatever you prefer more. 

I really really hope you slow down for Constant sake and understand how much you're destroying about this beautiful game. I don't want to resort into mods to disable these horrendous skill trees.

This is a bit an insult to the Don't Starve spirit and the community itself, Klei. Please understand.

 

*********************************

Suggested by Arcwell and Variant, a list of how terrible this skill tree system is and waking up people who may like it because it's truly just a "new paint of coat" and what Klei is giving you is nothing special that you didn't already see. 

1) How it works;  You need to wait tot days to obtain points for the skill tree. Boring, extremely repetitive --> especially if now all characters will have skill trees by making even more "meta" using the console command and/or mods. And don't get me start 1* "but new players..." if you don't have a mentor, pratically almost all new players will be influenced by internet (the forum, youtube, twitch...), friends or just the dst community, since it's very vocal about the "c_skip(150)", making extremely redundant the process to wait tot days. What if you gained them in the "intended way"? Doesn't change a thing. You are literally farming hours in the game, even if you try to illude yourself "I'll do a normal run, while I obtain points!". Your point is still reaching those points and you will now have to spend a lot of time for all the characters, to then experience AFTER the "real" characters. It's a farming slog meant to trick you psychologically (if you don't know, these things really exist, especially in the awful ambience of videogames companies, to study and scam people mentally). In the case of new players it doesn't touch them....atleast at the start but since I know a LOT of things about new players learning through the game compared to a lot of people here, they will stick to 1-3 characters at max and when they will try new ones, we're back to point 1*         

                                                                            

2) Design perspective; What an ultra lame thing to lock the points behind WAITING. You could create so many better ways to assigning the points by playing then waiting. Just a mere example like Wigfrid is a fighting character, let her gain points via tot killing enemies and bosses, rewarding the players to play the character as intended. Wormwood is a farming character, let him gain point via exploring the farming minigame and discovering tot giant plants in the gardeneer hat and so on. This is just an example, you can even discard it and do so many other ideas, the point is this proves that the system is lazy, not well put and let's be real, not even thought about it. Klei is creating all of this just for the sake of content (exactly like the ocean.....) and everyone can think of a better system than this.

 

3) It destroys the core of Don't Starve; Where should I start? Every point we tackle about the gameplay of the skill tree destroys Don't Starve and its gameplay. There are zero, 0, redeeming qualities for the skill tree. So I'll start with one but it will continue from point 4 - 7.                   The game loop and difficulty of the game was decided by the player's knowledge. Yes perks and abilities can help, but what differentiate from Wilson day 1 and Wilson day 100 for example, is HOW the player choose to play the game, by his means, by his mind, not because he has a strong ability that nullifies him dangers from day 1. You should earn it by playing, experiencing and dying in the game. Earn <-- keyword        This is all the opposite of Don't Starve. This is some mediocre generic MMO or GDR where you progress and becomes better just by the abilities that carry you, earned by just waiting or not earned at all. Don't tell me that boosting damage and speed to Wolfgang is not a too strong one, or Wilson changing gems, nitre, gold, stone, flint at his will or Woodie spawning treeguards at his will and negating his core malus or Wormwood creating berry bushes, saplings and grass turfs at his will BEHIND A PAID DLC, BIG BTW.

 

4) Illusion of the choice; Now this is big. I want to all of you think and reflect for 1 minute and compare the skill tree system, to what we always had. You start, gather resources and interact with the game. In your journey you will discover so many items that brings you power and aid in your adventure, since it's a survival sandbox. Then, you have science machines that let you unlock these powers, making them points of progression in all of this system, by locking them with special materials. All of this was avaiable day 1 and the limit was yourself. Now you have a point system, where you obtain almost everything day 1, unlocking said powers and items that you still need to craft. Rings a bell? No? One point people bring into these skill trees is giving more perks/abilities/powers to characters to feel them as more complex, fun and better in case for poor characters that were mistreated (Woodie, Winona, Willow...) which I may add, THEN WHY DON'T ADD THEM TO THE ORIGINAL KIT.  Why Wolfgang can't have in his kit the new different gembells and unlocking them via shadow manipulator, why Wormwood can't create berry bushes, saplings and grass turfs and unlocking them via Alchemy Engine as Don't Starve always teached us? Why can't Woodie have the awful BAND-AID FIX integrated to his character??? What's really the point? Can't you see? You're all fooled. What really change the skill tree system from the normal one? Nothing. Zero. Which makes things worse. I said it again and again, even in my post about Wilson rework. Klei already reach the perfect progression system tied to the game during character reworks --> Wx, Wigfrid, Wanda, Webber and Warly. Perfect examples that already had a "skill tree" much before that you even didn't noticed. You had your "choice" in the game by resource management, to decide when craft and use something based on the situation and then later, you could experience and play all the items and powers at a certain point. Just because it's not wrote for you in a cute menu doesn't change a thing. 

"But you choose in the skill tree what you get and not". Guys....1 moonstone and 1 purple gem. And we know how cheap it is. It's just more boring because you go right and left to the Celestial portal to change your build. Don't fool you. You'll chose the points for the early-game (such as new craftings), craft them and then change and chose the better ones, to put stereoids in your character and do want you want. Don't lie to yourself, as this is what everyone will do, as these systems are created to incentivize these things. It incentivize the "meta" of "I'll strategize the better way to do things". It doesn't help either how the game is heavily unbalanced and this will make it even more unbalanced.  

 

5) It's not creative at all; Most of the skill tree is boring. Boooooring. 15% plus speed. 10% plus dmg. 20% plus anger towards this skill tree system. What the hell is this, Don't Final Fantasy? We see these things everywhere. Like, everwhereee. This is a bastardization of the game to appeal "casual" people ( please, please, don't misuderstand the "casual" term. I don't have anything against casual people, nor this is a "veteran tryhard vs casual" thing) and think "Ah yes! This is more content!" No, asbolutely not. You could have all of this in a rework patch day 1 and you had to progress through the game standards by discovering the new things in the science machines or other means.  

 

6) You gain new powers by progressing in the game!; Not true. Absolutely not true and fake. You farm tot days or more realistically cheat everything and you have everything on day 1. There is no progression at all. And if we tie this point to the first point of "How it works" do you get it that new players or somewhat decent players can literally just die those days and never surpass the first year and obtain free strong stuff? Strong stuff that help them make the game even more easy and not learning through the natural process of Don't Starve, which is = discover, experiment with stuff, die a lot and finally realizing what you did wrong. You learn better what do to and what to avoid through your mental skills (strategizing, knoweldge, ecc...) and not by abilities skill.

 

7) Too strong; Nullyfing core malus of a character, with band-aid fix nevertheless. Powers that can manipulate the game core at this knees, powers that make artificially stupid the characters stronger.... what I should I say, other than "this is horrible"? Their making the game stupidly easier (while also dividing the community), when already Don't Starve as it is today is easy and broken and unbalance to high levels. The "Klei is preparing the late game harder, that's why it's easier!" is an excuse guys. Nobody know what will happen. It can nullify what you are saying or what I'm saying. Until then we need to discuss it as it is + do you understand that this late game thingy it's just, how much? 5% of the game?. So you're making 95% of the game stupid and only 5% harder? That....doesn't make any sense. It should be a learning curve, not a 180 turn degree. Reminder that a core design aspect of Ds characters was "you have these pro abilities but also gain these malus abilities", but alright..... 

 

8) Band-aid fix; Aaaaahh, yes. Refreshing. I know for sure a lot of ds players don't know what a band-aid fix is, since this game atmosphere doesn't shine them a lot, compared to a lot of common multiplayer games. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, inform yourself for the argument but ohhh boyyy. I know this topic, quite a lot and let me tell you..... it's not good. It's absolutely not good. Band-aid fixes are again a super common mistakes by young developers and they're always bad. You should use them ONLY on extreme situations. This skill tree is full of them and broke the game even more. There is nothing more to say about it, since it ties with all the previous points.

 

9) Balance; This is a big oof. I don't know how to say it and I will be sincere, I don't want to make this post longer than it's already is. So, short answer: Don't Starve has been an unbalanced mess even before this update. We had some bright hopes during the era that has previously passed (2019 - 2022) with examples like Reap what you sow, quality of lifes updates, ecc.... but it was still very small and not enough. This skill tree thing will just make things skyrocket. Game is easier but most importantly, it spits on the fantastic design of ds characters with malus and pros. They are literally removing downsides. Nothing more to tell here, the balance is off the charts -5/10 and people already talked about it.

 

10) Spoilers; Oh boy! Something that I know for sure many are not even interested or care (that's why I put it last in the list). The game itself spoils you about the game and its mechanics! How bad it is? I don't know, you tell me in a game that's purposully created to not say NOTHING to the player and play it blindly. The all ""Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic rewards" . What's the point of discovering? What's the point of Don't Starve? I'm truly 100% honest here, but at this point....why Klei don't just put achievements and quests? No really. What is stopping them to introduce them. These things works exactly like a generic boring MMO or GDR and they kinda works as achievements too. If their goal is to destroy everything  Don't Starve was, to appeal, I don't know who, what is stopping them? Anyway, this point is the skill tree spoils you, not also as "spoilers" itself but as a "guide" and telling you exactly "you will have more heat!" "you will punch harder!" without leaving you clueless and discovering it by clues and hints. You know.... what Don't Starve was meant to be. 

 

I get it that many people don't know nothing about game design in videogames. So I can see for a lot of you is hard to swallow and understand what I wrote, but that's the best I can do.  

Last note, the only positive point we could bring in favour of the skilltree (even if it doesn't help it, since all the 10 points destroy it) is the choice to stand for Shadows or Lunar forces, giving you an actual choice.... which at one point I'll again gladly ask "What's the point of the skilltree????" Why after defeating Fuelweaver for example, a cutscene plays or something and shadows hug your characters and give those powers immediately (obviously you can't get lunar ones, without sacrificing the shadows one). What's the point of a special menu when you can directly give those in the game after "choosing" which side you are fighting for. 

  

Case close.

*********************************

[Baark0]

Why would someone waste time making a mod to disable a feature you don't have to interact with? And no, I don't count having to click a pop up every few days as interacting with skill trees, that's literally what the gift box system has been for years. People are forgetting that DS had an XP system that unlocked characters based on how long you survived, I'd say that unlocking more abilities for your character the longer you survive fits in quite well.

[Milordo]

1 minute ago, Baark0 said:

Why would someone waste time making a mod to disable a feature you don't have to interact with? And no, I don't count having to click a pop up every few days as interacting with skill trees, that's literally what the gift box system has been for years. People are forgetting that DS had an XP system that unlocked characters based on how long you survived, I'd say that unlocking more abilities for your character the longer you survive fits in quite well.

While the XP system point you made is the only first time I see someone make an almost fair point, "almost", do you get it that the XP system ties in the skill tree system only by unlocking the points and not the skill tree itself? I'm sorry when was the last time after you unlocked Willow that you went in a menu a customize her with 13 points to Agility, 15 to Strenght, 20 to Dexterity and 1 to Luck? This system is nowhere the XP one and it's very very bad.

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BTW A POINT FOR EVERYONE IN THE POST BEFORE EVERYONE GO MAD -----> I'm not mad that the Don't Starve characters acquire more abilities the longer you progress in the game, this is exactly what I dreamt for years! The problem is HOW it's made. People, WAKE UP. You already had a system like this with characters like Walter when going into the ruins and unlock a new ability, the thulecite rounds! Or Wanda too!!! This tied excellent in Don't Starve design.

Farming points by standing still, or cheating via console or mods, does NOT reward you for survive longer when you can LITERALLY starts a run with all the skill tree points avaiable. It rewards FARMING HOURS in the game. This is NOT Don't Starve. This is Don't Starve MMORPG Warcraft: The last Battle for Constant

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About the mod, it's not a waste of time. If a lot of people disagree with the skill trees, then they will go on their way out to make a mod to disable them. If nobody will do it, don't worry, I will. It's mods afterall. We can chose how customize our game no?

[-Variant]

This wording is... unfavorable. Title alone feels like you're taking a jab at the developers.

I have strong feelings and there are a good chunk of things I agree with you on but there are absolutely better ways to express points without getting into finger jabbing territory.

[Milordo]

4 minutes ago, -Variant said:

This wording is... unfavorable. Title alone feels like you're taking a jab at the developers.

I have strong feelings and there are a good chunk of things I agree with you on but there are absolutely better ways to express points without getting into finger jabbing territory.

I really hate when it comes down to "moderate" your free speech, because I love to the end Klei and Don't Starve and nowhere I want to take a jab at the developers. I wanted to express myself as myself, without censoring or going neutral when these things happen, but oh welp.

If it helps to convey my message more, can you suggest me what I should modify and change of my post? I would really appreciate it. 

[Arcwell]

7 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I really hate when it comes down to "moderate" your free speech, because I love to the end Klei and Don't Starve and nowhere I want to take a jab at the developers. I wanted to express myself as myself, without censoring or going neutral when these things happen, but oh welp.

If it helps to convey my message more, can you suggest me what I should modify and change of my post? I would really appreciate it. 

I would say the issue is your first post doesn't really have any constructive feedback. It's basically saying "this update is terrible, I wish it never happened." It's alright to have that opinion, but that's not really something Klei devs can work with now that the beta's here. It would essentially be throwing a month's worth of work (which much of the community enjoys, myself included) in the trash.

If you want to correct it, I'd suggest identifying what specific part(s) of the update you dislike, and what specifically could be done to fix them. You've already partially done this in your second post. Whether or not people will agree with your solution is a different story, but it's a starting point.

[Sacco]

Instead of making a mod you can just ignore these skill trees if you want.

[-Variant]

27 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I really hate when it comes down to "moderate" your free speech, because I love to the end Klei and Don't Starve and nowhere I want to take a jab at the developers. I wanted to express myself as myself, without censoring or going neutral when these things happen, but oh welp.

Apologies, I wasn't trying to moderate or Waterdown your statements or feelings.

A LOT of the current developers are some new faces whom of which simply wanted to develop a game they enjoyed, when writing posts I try and always put myself in their shoes.
I, as a developer checking the forums, wouldn't really feel like all that excited seeing a thread claiming the recent update I had worked on was an "insult" to the series.

57 minutes ago, Milordo said:

WOW, Klei. You outdid yourself this time, you madlads. 

This reads off as sarcasm.

59 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I hope someone will create a mod to disable these horrendous skill trees.

Truly an insult to the Don't Starve spirit.

Directly stating again. You can feel this way, I'm sure others do as well but I think some of this could've been reworded or left at the door for a better chance at being taken seriously.

Be a bit constructive! State what it is you dislike and why, refrain of outright bashing the work the devs had put into the update. I can most certainly assure you their intent is not to 'ruin' the series.
I am not going to helicopter your writing or posts, but speaking from experience being on both ends of the stick I can promise there are ideal ways of sharing feedback.

[Capybara007]

NOO I DONT WANT THE GAME TO EVOLVE I WANT IT TO BE LIKE 10 YEARS AGO AHHHH

[Jakepeng99]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

While the XP system point you made is the only first time I see someone make an almost fair point, "almost", do you get it that the XP system ties in the skill tree system only by unlocking the points and not the skill tree itself? I'm sorry when was the last time after you unlocked Willow that you went in a menu a customize her with 13 points to Agility, 15 to Strenght, 20 to Dexterity and 1 to Luck? This system is nowhere the XP one and it's very very bad.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW A POINT FOR EVERYONE IN THE POST BEFORE EVERYONE GO MAD -----> I'm not mad that the Don't Starve characters acquire more abilities the longer you progress in the game, this is exactly what I dreamt for years! The problem is HOW it's made. People, WAKE UP. You already had a system like this with characters like Walter when going into the ruins and unlock a new ability, the thulecite rounds! Or Wanda too!!! This tied excellent in Don't Starve design.

Farming points by standing still, or cheating via console or mods, does NOT reward you for survive longer when you can LITERALLY starts a run with all the skill tree points avaiable. It rewards FARMING HOURS in the game. This is NOT Don't Starve. This is Don't Starve MMORPG Warcraft: The last Battle for Constant

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

About the mod, it's not a waste of time. If a lot of people disagree with the skill trees, then they will go on their way out to make a mod to disable them. If nobody will do it, don't worry, I will. It's mods afterall. We can chose how customize our game no?

You make some good points, like with Walter and Wanda, though i agree with varient on your aggressive wording.

[Cheggf]

I think they realized they don't know how to make new content so they just went back to the characters again. 

[Dextops]

Seems like you’re more upset with the idea of skill trees than the actual abilities added and implementation of it.

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

5 hours ago, Milordo said:

.by making Don't Starve an MMO. 

Do you know what an MMO means? Spoiler alert, it has nothing to do with skill trees.

[Capybara007]

5 hours ago, Milordo said:

by making Don't Starve an MMO. 

"Massive multiplayer online"

it is what im saying, try providing actual points on why this update is bad, all of what everyone is saying is that this isnt like dont starve, which really is a stale argument considering klei hasnt been aiming for traditional updates like ds

just accept that the game is evolving

[SadeceAtakan]

I have no problem with skill trees. Some of the ideas on the skill trees (were-goose's flying ability, more reasons to throw your dumbbells, saladmander army etc.) are so cool and they spice up the characters really well. I'm only sad because Wilson is not special anymore (again).

 

I don't think the skill trees are going to ruin the game at all. 

[Well-met]

Klei's only mistake was calling it a "skill tree".

had they called it something else with another layout I guarantee there would be much less complaints

[Nimbus3]

27 minutes ago, SadeceAtakan said:

I don't think the skill trees are going to ruin the game at all. 

I would not say it will ruin the game, but it is certainly not in lign with what Klei has done with don't starve up until now.
I dislike the skill trees a LOT because it goes against the way Don't Starve encourage you to profit from your character's perks.
To elaborate, why should wendy need to craft potions when it could just become a skill that you obtain passively ?
I prefer benefits that you actively have to work for in game, by gathering ressources, discovering new biomes, fighting mobs, hunting stuff, surviving seasons and not that you obtain because you played X hours or cheated to get lame insight points.

What i would suggest if Klei REALLY want to make a skill tree based on the opposition lunar/shadow would be a unique skill tree for all characters that only apply to the "end-game" content.

This would also take less time to make and balance than do another 5-6 updates that will take up months centered on characters, which are fine as they are.

Don't get me wrong though, i like some propositions for Woodie and Wormwood (the wolfgang one being only better numbers is very disapointing since it does nothing gameplay wise), but why not make them have to craft a recipe to get those perks ? Like an upgraded totem or a consumable that boost his transformation or allow him to skip only next moon phase etc. (this could also be a way to create new recipies specific to each character that use the new stuff, instead of just having combat related items)

The skill tree for Wilson made sense with the character thematically speaking. If everybody gets one, i think we lose what made Don't Starve so unique and enjoyable.

That being said i love the correction for items, maybe a tweak towards brightshade / lunar rifts ? As of now it's not a challenge like what was advertised but it feels more like a chore that constantly interrupts you from what you intended to do. Hounds wave can have this feeling but because of the spacing it is less annoying. Fighting them is not hard, it just feel like i'm losing time doing the same action again and again and is hardly "engaging content", even if the items we get are good.

[chirsg]

I've got a terrible headache so I'll keep it brief.

As if you all didn't see skill trees coming.

Anyway, I like what we have so far. 

I just think that skill trees shouldn't be tied into gameplay time and instead have a point unlocked for tasks.
Almost like the OG science points or whatever.

[Cheggf]

16 minutes ago, chirsg said:

As if you all didn't see skill trees coming.

what does this even mean

[Milordo]

6 hours ago, Arcwell said:

I would say the issue is your first post doesn't really have any constructive feedback. It's basically saying "this update is terrible, I wish it never happened." It's alright to have that opinion, but that's not really something Klei devs can work with now that the beta's here. It would essentially be throwing a month's worth of work (which much of the community enjoys, myself included) in the trash.

If you want to correct it, I'd suggest identifying what specific part(s) of the update you dislike, and what specifically could be done to fix them. You've already partially done this in your second post. Whether or not people will agree with your solution is a different story, but it's a starting point.

 

6 hours ago, -Variant said:

Apologies, I wasn't trying to moderate or Waterdown your statements or feelings.

A LOT of the current developers are some new faces whom of which simply wanted to develop a game they enjoyed, when writing posts I try and always put myself in their shoes.
I, as a developer checking the forums, wouldn't really feel like all that excited seeing a thread claiming the recent update I had worked on was an "insult" to the series.

This reads off as sarcasm.

Directly stating again. You can feel this way, I'm sure others do as well but I think some of this could've been reworded or left at the door for a better chance at being taken seriously.

Be a bit constructive! State what it is you dislike and why, refrain of outright bashing the work the devs had put into the update. I can most certainly assure you their intent is not to 'ruin' the series.
I am not going to helicopter your writing or posts, but speaking from experience being on both ends of the stick I can promise there are ideal ways of sharing feedback.

Done! 

It was a very long investment to write that long list, I hope people will appreciate and open their eyes, more so Klei. Also wanted to say @Arcwell that while yes, there are "opinions" of mine and subjective stuff, much of what I wrote is objective and factual, since I didn't create this game design, nor the skill tree lol.

For @-Variant I absolutely didn't knew that all the old team of Don't Starve went out and there are a lot of news ones, that.... explain a lot.

P.S Absolutely you can helicopter my writing if you want, I don't have any problems.

[Milordo]

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

You make some good points, like with Walter and Wanda, though i agree with varient on your aggressive wording.

Fixed. Yes maybe If my "aggressive wording" was tone down, I could reach more people hearts and minds. What can I say. It's my long long love towards Klei and Ds that exploded and let my emotions crazy. I always admit when I'm wrong and I will always work on it.  

[Antynomity]

I just want the progression of the game to not be impossible to solve yourself as a newcomer, without youtubers, streamers or the wiki I would have quit a long time ago because I would have ran out of stuff to do, the skill trees only extend the badly designed quest lines by a small margin.

[Milordo]

6 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

NOO I DONT WANT THE GAME TO EVOLVE I WANT IT TO BE LIKE 10 YEARS AGO AHHHH

This is what you only get 

 

[Capybara007]

14 minutes ago, Milordo said:

This is what you only get 

 

omg shopcate

[Milordo]

7 hours ago, Sacco said:

Instead of making a mod you can just ignore these skill trees if you want.

See, I could and yes, I will myself ignore these content althought I quote @-Variant 

The problem stands out for, quote;

"I have now 55 dst players or "scholars" who I have introduced and teached to the game since 2017 and it has always been my best years of life, never regret it.
Following the old Klei principles, I played with every single on them, ranging from 2 people runs to full 6 lobby run, with zero backseating and playing as a dumb dumb (example if they don't know and discovered torches or campfires, I will not build them nor I will try to evade darkness if they don't know how to fight it either) as Klei intended.
The true magic of don't starve.
It's even challengin for me that I know already the game because I need to be creative without "cheating" and I always discover something absurd (did you know it that dragonfruites can't burn? Lol) and seeing new people create weird and never heard strategies with always fill my heart.

One of the 55 players had a strategy against Toadstool with normal tools and weapons but gunpowder with torches and fire staff to destroy the mushrooms. Funniest **** I ever did on Dst."

 

That's why. I don't want the first experience of newcomers to be ruined by a boring skill tree. After they will complete the game, on a second run they're free to "play" with them. Until then, if Klei doesn't change them or atleast try to fix them, I will search for a mod to disable them

3 hours ago, Dextops said:

Seems like you’re more upset with the idea of skill trees than the actual abilities added and implementation of it.

I'll give you this.... yes. On let's say, 70% because then there is the 30% of unbalance mess but I literally grown old of that since 2013 with the poor old Krampus. 2019-2022 was just a fever dream. If it was just a normal update giving these new things straight to the characters, I would have been more calm.

Like more gembells based on their gems? More buff needed for Woodie? A crafting recipe to literally make animals shart on themselves? Sign me up!