About Klei not utilizing the ds/t universe to its fullest potential

[Szczuku]

This is a thread where I'll complain talk about how Klei is not utilizing this franchise's worlds to their fullest potential. I don't really have a clever way to make an introduction so let's just get right to the examples:

-Gorge- I'll divide it into 3 points but the general idea is that I dunno if Klei ever plans to touch the Gateway arc again and properly connect it to the RoT/main storyline. They should, obviously, but I'll explain that later on.

1) Gnaw and Ancients- it'd make perfect sense for Gnaw to be the thing that drove Ancients underground. They were worshipping the 'moon', were depended on it. And Gnaw is a giant cloudy mouth in the sky that blocks the nightsky. Not only would it slowly turn them all into merms, it would also separate them from their deity. But we don't know that, that's just my speculations. Klei hasn't touched Ancients since the Forgotten Knowledge update, and judging by how they messed up the Ancient's apperance, I'm guessing that they weren't all that 'Lets make sure that everything is correct from the lore-standpoint' about that update.

2) Mumsy and Billy. Klei pleeeeeease add them to dst. It's just so easy to connect Gorge's end with RoT's beginning, it hurts: Charlie (shadows) grew more powerful thanks to Gateway's energy -> Alter dropped a piece of itself to intervene. Survivors were returned to the Constant, while the Goats were travelling through multiple dimensions, picking up various things along the way, till they also arrived in the Constant (let's say, now, after Wilson's rework part of the timeline). Now they have a house+garden somewhere in the forest where they trade various Gorge things and their dimension-hopping souvenirs in exchange for survival resources.

3) Wagstaff was the one who visited the Elder Bog. I'm scrapping my previous idea that Goats' dimension-hopping helped free Wagstaff from his personal dimension-jail (my old headcannon) since Klei seems to be retconning Winona's short and making Wagstaff literally play dst by using Wilson's portal as a monitor and the radio as a controller. Anyhoo, Gorge lore: Mumsy says something along the lines of 'Someone like you passed through here once'. It could've been anyone but then, in order to escape, they must've opened up the Gateway. How come Mumsy and Billy were still in the Bog when the survivors arrived? Maybe there was a lot of Goats previously and as they were escaping the Key ran out of power, trapping Mumsy and Billy in the Gorge. Sure it could be that but Wagstaff makes much more sense imo. Let's say that he was just starting to mess with Wilson's portal, seeing how it works, how to project himself. At some point he managed to connect with the Elder Bog. Obviously Wagstaff would be super excited and curious, he'd probably do some research, take some notes and, once he was satisfied, leave. He wouldn't help Mumsy and Billy, naturally. 

I mean, COME ON, the lore is practically writing itself, not to mention that adding Mumsy and Billy to dst would also benefit the game, gameplay-wise and Klei money-wise since it'd warrant a new batch of victorian skins. Gorge was such a cool even, with lots of good concepts that can still be used.

And yet none of that is cannon. Not only did Klei not do anything with the Gorge, Forge was left in the dust even more, to the point where I have no idea how to connect it with anything we have currently in ds/t, lore-wise.

-Daywalker is Wilba's dad. This would be pretty cool if it'd turn out to be true, as our other option is that Daywalker is just some random pig. Think about it: sometime in the future we have another fight with the Nightmare Pig (as he states that it's 'not over'). This time we defeat him for real and he once again screams but, this time falls onto his back. And for a few frames of his falling animation, a silver necklace emarges from his chest hair, before being hidden by his bulk, like this (excuse my artistic expertise):

Spoiler

People in the community would be all like "Hey guys, did anyone notice-" "If you pause it right here-" "I think it means-". And if Klei were smart about this franchise and singleplayer and its dlcs were in active development, they'd make a, seemingly, unimportant bugfix update to the Hamlet, that would actually silently add a bunch of lore items which reveal that in the past Wilba's dad had found the End's Well and, driven mad by the fuel/visions of the ds/t caves/ruins, discreetely organized a small expedition of unsavory pigs (including the pig king) to venture with him into the Constant.

Like, you gotta admit that that'd be pretty cool. Our only evidences for the "Dadwalker" theory right now are that he can talk and that both Wilba and her dad are cursed. Nightmare fuel makes things more aggressive and stronger, sure, but it's not known for increasing intelligence. He speaks in broken English, like regular pigs, but regular pigs don't speak at all when they're werepigs. Maybe a more developed Hamlet pig, say: Wilba's dad, would get dumbed-down into broken English if it were to werepig.

-There are also a few more things, such as Crab and Crow people not having any serious lore/culture at the moment. Unfortunatelly I don't really have any ideas for them. I mean, maybe Crab people live underwater, maybe even in the SW's ocean. Or the mysteries behind SW's volcano civilization and Hamlet's iron hulk and its war

-Broken down Maxwell's Door and Teleportato that could be found as setpieces somewhere in the world, destroyable only with the deconstruction staff. Had Klei done this back in 2016 they'd make for a pretty heavy-handed metaphor of the whole 'New Reign' theme. Maxwell's two most important structures laying in ruins, while Charlie's ones keep sprouting up.

-Regular things like characters referencing SW and Ham in their examination quotes.

-I like that Hamlet's Ancient Herald is an actual connection with ds/t ruins, pretty sweet. Too bad it's not expanded in any way whatsoever. Should Klei do some more Metheus-like murals, it'd be really cool to see, like, an ancient Counselor/Archivist of the King and Queen wearing a red scarf/cape, indicating that they became the Herald.

So yeah, I think that this universe can very much support interconnecting stories and subplots, if the devs would actually try to develop them. And I was talking only about the stuff we know from the gameplay of ds/t. Subplots/stories that might be happeing in the real world, as consequnces of people going missing and whatnot are another goldmine of lore.

Like I said, if Daywalker turns out to be literally just a random pig, I'll be 100% sure then that Klei adds new lore stuff for the sake of pushing the story, not trying to make it structurally sound. And that's pretty bad. What's the reason behind putting singleplayer, its dlcs, dst, its events all into separate bubbles.

But these are just my thougts, sparked by the Daywalker and his, right now unknown, lore. What do y'all think?

[BezKa]

I think 'correct' is not the word you're looking for. I'd say 'the way I'd like them to' about stuff like this.

[Szczuku]

9 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I think 'correct' is not the word you're looking for. I'd say 'the way I'd like them to' about stuff like this.

1. Right, that was a temporary title

2. You're free to tell me why the current system is actually the best way to handle the vast ds/t universe or your version of a better one. But as its currently stands, I believe that the way I described in the op is the best one, hence the original 'correctly'

[Mike23Ua]

I can personally give a heck less about the LORE, what frustrates me to no end is the actual Gameplay that seems to be stuck in this Limbo of going absolutely nowhere..

Like okay for example we were given Moon Quay & A little drama, these were and as Klei stated- to set the stage for what was to come later..

What came later was a completely unrelated Werepig Boss with a new Resource type, new armors, weapons and tools that can be made with that resource type.

Todays new update I expected to expand on DreadStone, pure horror and the likes- instead NOPE they’re pulling a Moon Glass 2.0 and adding even more new armor types, tool types made from a completely different resource.

Its all collectively going NOWHERE the ocean feels flat out boring, painfully unfinished and highly uninteresting save for one or two locations you need to sail forever to find.. Whatever Klei’s plans are I hope they reveal the bigger picture soon.

because as it stands right NOW I’m convinced they create updates one update at a time with little to no connection to previous updates, they simply saw some select members of the community wanted to “choose a side” between Charlie’s Shadows & Whoever’s Moon Beings… so they added new resource types and craftables based on either the shadows (DreadStone/pure horror) or the Gashalts (this new whatever you wanna name it stuff in current beta..)

WHERE is the bigger connection???

I can careless what happened to Billy & Mumsy, I can careless if Wortox stealing the Terrarium is canon or not, I don’t care at all about whatever shenanigans Charlie and Wagstaff are up to-

what gets under my skin is how Klei seemingly starts something, and then abruptly discontinued it.. (lunar horrors, moon glass triggered mutations, Moon Glass resource uses, DreadStone resource uses? And now Blightstone???

Maybe Someday I’ll finally get to see what it was all done for, but for right now… I got new resources, new items to craft with those resources- and no rhyme or reason to ever need em.

[Dextops]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Todays new update I expected to expand on DreadStone, pure horror and the likes- instead NOPE they’re pulling a Moon Glass 2.0 and adding even more new armor types, tool types made from a completely different resource.

it took me all of 5 seconds the new update is supposed to mirror the previous one so idk what you're on about

[BezKa]

Just now, Szczuku said:

You're free to tell me

Honestly i don't know. My own wishings regarding DST are impossible, since I would have liked them to implement stuff before the lunar stuff happened. I'm not going to argue your vision is better or worse, it's yours. I don't know the full plan that Klei has, or if they even have one.

Often what seems like a bad idea at the time proves to have been a correct choice and vice versa. I don't want to stress myself thinking what could have been and what should be, when I have no impact and then get angry/disappointed when it doesn't happen. I've done that before and I have enough stress in my life to not need to manufacture more.

You have interesting ideas, but for me there is simply no way of knowing if it's 'the best possible option'. The only thing that really matters to me is that you communicate those ideas in a non-hostile matter. Sorry for a long post, I let myself ramble.

[-Variant]

17 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Daywalker is Wilba's dad.

Double dad mayhem! Geeze, Wilba, why does your mum let you have TWO dads?

[Copyafriend]

Daywalker is wilbas mom

[bloopah]

5 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Daywalker is wilbas mom

the queen of hamlet got a case of the nightmare flu

[Szczuku]

4 minutes ago, -Variant said:

Double dad mayhem! Geeze, Wilba, why does your mum let you have TWO dads?

The description never specified that the 'king' was the RoG one, in fact Wilba doesn't address the RoG Pig King as dad.

Furthermore, there is no king in the hamlet, only queen Malfalfa. Hamlet King (Wilba's dad) leaving Hamlet before the gameplay's events to later become the dst Daywalker doesn't contrast with that character update's description

[Cassielu]

I like the idea of Maxwell Door and Daywalker, but the rest... maybe is a bit overdone. I mean, DSLore are fragmented statement, how do you know your theory is correct? 

[maciu67]

19 hours ago, Szczuku said:

1) Gnaw and Ancients- it'd make perfect sense for Gnaw to be the thing that drove Ancients underground. They were worshipping the 'moon', were depended on it. And Gnaw is a giant cloudy mouth in the sky that blocks the nightsky. Not only would it slowly turn them all into merms, it would also separate them from their deity. But we don't know that, that's just my speculations. Klei hasn't touched Ancients since the Forgotten Knowledge update, and judging by how they messed up the Ancient's apperance, I'm guessing that they weren't all that 'Lets make sure that everything is correct from the lore-standpoint' about that update.

I think the "moon" rather send Gnaw to punish Ancient Race when they started to interest shadow side because Gnaw has a lunar connotations (iridescent gem in Gnaw's favor for example), and when ancients escaped to caves some priests of Alter stayed loyal and built lunar archives but they rather weren't an outsiders because Wickerbottom mentioned that Terra Firma Thumper was used in farming what incicates lunar side still had important role.

However if we talk about conception of lore generally in games then I must say than good lore need to have some mystery cause making different theories is a part of joy from game. Despite that I must admit that DS lore is a little too cryptic.

19 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Wagstaff was the one who visited the Elder Bog

I don't see a reason why Wagstaff wanted to cook for Gnaw. I think it was Warly who ealier escaped from Shipwrecked.

About Wagstaff: I kinda like him but current lore is too much concentred on him. He appeared during Hamlet beta from nothing and ended being the most important character playing a key role in lunar thread and Webber, Wx-78 and Winona's story, When playable characters slowly turns from independent beings into collective hero.

19 hours ago, Szczuku said:

-Daywalker is Wilba's dad

I would be very happy especially this is the best oportunitty to bring some Hamlet lore to live (and because Wilba is one of my favourite characters) but unfortunately Hamlet and Shipwrecked lore is literally abandoned. These two DLCs are theathen like would never happened in story of DST. I think the Daywalker's plot will be as simple as possible - regular pig, second boss fight, Daywalker's death, no real story.

Imagine grown-up Wilba returnig to find her father... dreams.

(I wanted to start new topic about daywalker today but now I wait some days cause it would have some similarities.)

19 hours ago, Szczuku said:

-I like that Hamlet's Ancient Herald is an actual connection with ds/t ruins, pretty sweet. Too bad it's not expanded in any way whatsoever. Should Klei do some more Metheus-like murals, it'd be really cool to see, like, an ancient Counselor/Archivist of the King and Queen wearing a red scarf/cape, indicating that they became the Herald.

All Hamlet bosses have deeper stories but Ancient Herald is problematic. He appears during aporkalypse and according to Hamlet trailer this event is solar eclipse so moon has a role here but compared to the moon already present in DST that could be hard to explain.

[Starlogy]

20 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Broken down Maxwell's Door and Teleportato that could be found as setpieces somewhere in the world, destroyable only with the deconstruction staff. Had Klei done this back in 2016 they'd make for a pretty heavy-handed metaphor of the whole 'New Reign' theme. Maxwell's two most important structures laying in ruins, while Charlie's ones keep sprouting up.

Could we unironically get these as setpieces? These would be super cool for any player to find in the world, whether it's someone who played DS and knows exactly what they are, or a complete newbie walking up to them going "huh, wonder what the hell those are?"

[Paxtonnnn]

23 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Klei seems to be retconning Winona's short

I personally think (and hope) that short wasn’t retconned, it’s possible Wagstaff had just found a way out - I mean, he found a way out for that spider.

[-Variant]

2 minutes ago, Paxtonnnn said:

I mean, he found a way out for that spider.

How do we know the Spider wasn't the supreme mastermind behind all the portal tech and Waggy captured it out of spite and jealousy and sent it to Webber's father to interrogate it, huh? Huh? Never considered that did ya!

[Paxtonnnn]

1 hour ago, -Variant said:

How do we know the Spider wasn't the supreme mastermind behind all the portal tech and Waggy captured it out of spite and jealousy and sent it to Webber's father to interrogate it, huh? Huh? Never considered that did ya!

Wow, this theory is so good, can't believe Klei is too busy being LAZY to incorporate GOOD theories like this one into their lore

[Szczuku]

In the op I've given examples of stuff that Klei could do with the ds/t universe.

However it just occured to me that we have a great example of a shortcoming caused by the current way devs treat this franchise's lore:

Wanda's short, the timeline flying through the screen sequence. This scene features a lot of bits from the lore... that we've already seen. It's all fragments of cinematics that have already been made. The devs could've used that sequence to show new, never-before-seen stuff, or to tease upcoming cinematics. Now, I know that Klei most likely didn't even have the concepts for Wx, Max, Wicker's cinematics in place at that time, and I'm pretty sure that's because they don't treat this universe the way I described in the op.

Imo that scene would be much more impactful if it showed us stuff like the Ancients, Maxwell on the Nightmare Throne holding a Smallbird, Willow behind a burning building (which Wicker's animation would complete), Wx-78's human form's silhouette (which community would theorize is Wagstaff until WX cinematic), etc.

[AlternateMew]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:17 PM, maciu67 said:

About Wagstaff: I kinda like him but current lore is too much concentred on him. He appeared during Hamlet beta from nothing and ended being the most important character playing a key role in lunar thread and Webber, Wx-78 and Winona's story, When playable characters slowly turns from independent beings into collective hero.

He always felt like an afterthought to me. Randomly added to singleplayer after DST had been around for a while, and important I guess? Though with what we've seen so far, I don't know if "hero" is the word I'd use. He's showing some potentially villainous traits. I'm skeptical lol.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 1:17 PM, maciu67 said:

I would be very happy especially this is the best oportunitty to bring some Hamlet lore to live (and because Wilba is one of my favourite characters) but unfortunately Hamlet and Shipwrecked lore is literally abandoned.

Someone help out my fuzzy memory here... For Shipwrecked specifically, wasn't it not even KLei that were in charge of that one? I seem to remember something about Shipwrecked being by another group.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 4:19 PM, -Variant said:

How do we know the Spider wasn't the supreme mastermind behind all the portal tech and Waggy captured it out of spite and jealousy and sent it to Webber's father to interrogate it, huh? Huh? Never considered that did ya!

Webber best boi confirmed because he's working with the real mastermind!

[Ardcrumb]

Wagstaff has done nothing but be supportive to the survivors, Charlie kills us. 

Not a hard choice

[Paxtonnnn]

2 hours ago, AlternateMew said:

He always felt like an afterthought to me. Randomly added to singleplayer after DST had been around for a while, and important I guess? Though with what we've seen so far, I don't know if "hero" is the word I'd use. He's showing some potentially villainous traits. I'm skeptical lol.

Wagstaff was always in the lore since even before DST, though yeah he got a lot more important once he came to DS and then DST

[oCrapaCreeper]

I just want to see SW and Hamlet fit into the timeline in some way if they aren't going to incorporate them into DST. Hamlet especially appears to be integral to the deeper lore but they don't expand upon it.

Right now both DLCs feel like "what if" scenarios which is silly when they have already ripped Warly and Wormwood and put them into dst, then latter being shown in the Hamlet jungle in their short as well.

[WONTow]

Should've could've would've.

[maciu67]

22 hours ago, Szczuku said:

Wanda's short, the timeline flying through the screen sequence

I don't think Wanda (and Wortox, and Wurt, and half of free characters) has a bigger role in story, and maybe that's good. Time travels is a topic that destroys entire logic whenever it appears.

[Szczuku]

12 hours ago, WONTow said:

Should've could've would've.

More like should, could, would.

As basically everything I've said in the op can be done right now, if Klei were to start working on the established lore, rather than forcing the story forward.

[bloopah]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:21 PM, Ardcrumb said:

Wagstaff has done nothing but be supportive to the survivors, Charlie kills us. 

Not a hard choice

quoth the scorpion: it's in [her] nature