Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[Hornete]

46 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

These band aid fixes

Somewhat related, kind of off-topic, but you made me remember the annoying band aid fix they had done for bosses drowning on water, where they had made it so telelocator focus's couldn't be placed on boats any longer. Not often does a bug/patch fix in DST feel video-gamey but this one felt really bad as a player. The focus is just unplacable because, why not!

Worse part, when docks were added and bosses could be drowned that way, they finally made it so bosses were immune to drowning. The patch with telelocator focus's unable to be placed on boats though? Still in the game, only takes away freedom from the player and restricts what they can do with placing mobs on boats.

I don't have much to add to the discussion but I agree with you "video-gamey" band-aid fixes feel really bad especially when they don't even make any sense.

[PetulantPansy]

31 minutes ago, Hornete said:

I don't have much to add to the discussion but I agree with you "video-gamey" band-aid fixes feel really bad especially when they don't even make any sense.

But seeing a deerclops/bearger/beefalo floating around in the middle of the ocean makes total sense?

[Hornete]

20 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

But seeing a deerclops/bearger/beefalo floating around in the middle of the ocean makes total sense?

Um, wat? They instantly died before, which certainly was strong. But they have literally fixed it so they wash ashore like other mobs and entities like players, pigs and bunnyman.

[Cheggf]

12 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Um, wat? They instantly died before, which certainly was strong. But they have literally fixed it so they wash ashore like other mobs and entities like players, pigs and bunnyman.

Does it hurt them, or just teleport them?

[Hornete]

6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Does it hurt them, or just teleport them?

Just teleports, the only drowning penalty it applies to mobs is full wetness apparently!

CREATURE =
			{
				WETNESS = 100,
			},

Which.... is kind of stupid. The only entities in the game that have "real" wetness are players and dragonfly, and dragonfly being a flying mob, can't even drown! All other entities are dependant on world wetness.

[PetulantPansy]

[]

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, Hornete said:

Just teleports, the only drowning penalty it applies to mobs is full wetness apparently!

CREATURE =
			{
				WETNESS = 100,
			},

Which.... is kind of stupid. The only entities in the game that have "real" wetness are players and dragonfly, and dragonfly being a flying mob, can't even drown! All other entities are dependant on world wetness.

so they get the wetness stat but isnt applied because they dont have wetness bar like DF or players? if it works can be a funny way to take advantage of electric damage xD

[cropo]

When they ''fixed'' most forms of Single Player fire farms and other various exploits when transitioning to DST I didn't complain. There was a well-meaning reason for it, and I always feel like exploits should be fixed if new content is introduced that requires them to be fixed even if they objectively give the player more options.  I absolutely hated the change to Fuelweavers Shadow Prison, I thought walking along the edges of the map was a great option to fight the Fuelweaver if you were willing to waste time, it had a cost/benefit associated with it and gave more options to the fight. Just like lureplanting him does. I didn't complain when they ''fixed' it though because there was a well-meaning reason behind it. The maps had to be changed for sea-based content and possibly caves exploration in the future.

The Ancient Guardian got a much needed change to his moveset to make him a more interesting boss, so I am totally fine with getting rid of the cheese strategy to kill him because it was done to make way for something better.

 

 

But random cheeses like this supposed Bee Queen cheese? To what end is it for? If I don't want to cheese a boss, I have the power of choice to not do so. Nothing in my game is lost if someone 20 servers away from me finds some high IQ exploit to kill a boss. Sometimes cheese strategies still requires vast amounts of resources and exploitation of ingame knowledge and mechanics to pull off. MAybe there is some future content update that Klei plans to do to change Bee Queen, or boats in general so this kind of stuff might be needed in the future but if that was the case they could have just ''fixed'' it when that time had come.

 

Fixing harmless, optional cheeses that you have to go out of your way and intentionally abuse is a gross waste of dev time and makes the game stray further from what made it a fun experience in the first place. It's just....so senseless.   I mean congratulations, you've made total snobs happy that some optional methods you can use to engage with content were removed because it doesn't fit their standard on how the game should be?

 

Maybe some people are worried about random people they meet online and anything-goes worlds are going to do it or something? But that's kind of what you sign up for when you join random servers? You can easily stipulate in your own servers that cheesing isn't allowed if other people doing it in your gamespace(that you opened to other people) are doing it.

 

It's just...completely senseless.  Like seriously what is gained from this? This is a net-loss for many players, a meaningless fix for players who don't care and never would have abused it anyway, and it is impossible to completely please the kinds of people who are cheering this on solely because it makes players who aren't mechanically adapted to just pure fighting can't ''unfairly'' get boss drops anymore.  What's next, an E-sports Don't Starve boss rush? Bad change.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

so they get the wetness stat but isnt applied because they dont have wetness bar like DF or players? if it works can be a funny way to take advantage of electric damage xD

Think they mean nothing happens because mobs don't keep track of wetness.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

24 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Think they mean nothing happens because mobs don't keep track of wetness.

that sucks, they should stay wet for certain time. Same goes for water balloons

edit. im not saying to bring back the wetness bar to every entity, that didnt work but i guess they can add something similar to how freezing works

[BezKa]

I already said my piece of this discussion but I crack up every time someone calls luring a boss to a boat "a smart and creative high IQ strategy". That's so funny.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I already said my piece of this discussion but I crack up every time someone calls luring a boss to a boat "a smart and creative high IQ strategy". That's so funny.

would be creative if you suddenly think "oh, what if..." but thr truth is that they are just looking for cheese in google and copying the one that needs less effort 

[Mysterious box]

43 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I already said my piece of this discussion but I crack up every time someone calls luring a boss to a boat "a smart and creative high IQ strategy". That's so funny.

Honestly it's just interesting to see how many hoops people jump through to support the idea that balance patches that benefit the player are the only kind we need but ones that may inconvenience the player are completely unnecessary regardless of how much sense they make.  

[cropo]

58 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

would be creative if you suddenly think "oh, what if..." but thr truth is that they are just looking for cheese in google and copying the one that needs less effort 

Discovery in this game has always been a community effort, there's nothing wrong with players getting tips from other players on how to tackle content.  Also how ''creative'' does something need to be for your standards to be legitimate? I don't think people measure options in their boss methods based on how ''creative'' they are.  I don't think anyone is really making a claim that cheese methods are some high-IQ big brain rocket-science gobbledigook.  The ones who are acting like there is some noblese to forcing all players to limit their bossing contents by removing harmless, optional tactics people can use to kill bosses are the ones jumping through hoops here.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, cropo said:

Discovery in this game has always been a community effort, there's nothing wrong with players getting tips from other players on how to tackle content.  Also how ''creative'' does something need to be for your standards to be legitimate? I don't think people measure options in their boss methods based on how ''creative'' they are.  I don't think anyone is really making a claim that cheese methods are some high-IQ big brain rocket-science gobbledigook.  The ones who are acting like there is some noblese to forcing all players to limit their bossing contents by removing harmless, optional tactics people can use to kill bosses are the ones jumping through hoops here.

But wouldn't it feel more satisfying if obviously cheesy methods were instead replaced with the community suggesting alternative non exploitative ways to handle those bosses fights? Like for example what if how the larva phase works was changed and how walls work were updated to be actually useful in their natural state rather than only exploiting pathing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, cropo said:

Discovery in this game has always been a community effort, there's nothing wrong with players getting tips from other players on how to tackle content.  Also how ''creative'' does something need to be for your standards to be legitimate? I don't think people measure options in their boss methods based on how ''creative'' they are.  I don't think anyone is really making a claim that cheese methods are some high-IQ big brain rocket-science gobbledigook.  The ones who are acting like there is some noblese to forcing all players to limit their bossing contents by removing harmless, optional tactics people can use to kill bosses are the ones jumping through hoops here.

for sure, and is a cool thing to share. Remembers me when i played gameboy games with my friends but the truth with cheesing, and might be the reason why klei fix certain stuff, is that some guy can go to youtube and find a free way to kill a boss. I dont care if someone plays in that way like i dont care the 2423263828 mods that makes the game easier but that guy isnt being creative, just lazy (nothing really wrong when i have look after guides or gameplays for certain things in certain games included this one) and klei, as owners, might not like that kind of things when they also need to create new content knowing these kind of things

personally, as i said, i think there are certain exploits that arent worth fixing because, even if they take little time to be fixed, will only make angry the people that relly on them and potentially make them lose interest in a game that lives on hooking people for long enough to buy skins and characters while the ones that celebrate it are players that arent affectedd by this changes and wont make them play more or buy more stuff

[cropo]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

But wouldn't it feel more satisfying if obviously cheesy methods were instead replaced with the community suggesting alternative non exploitative ways to handle those bosses fights? Like for example what if how the larva phase works was changed and how walls work were updated to be actually useful in their natural state rather than only exploiting pathing.

 

Well yeah I'd agree, if a fix to an obvious exploit is done for the reason of making way for new content I'm in favor of it. Which is why I am okay with ancient guardians pillar method was fixed, and how fires were changed to work differently in DST ruining a lot of farms that SP users could do.

[Cloakingsumo198]

I really don't understand how people compare blocking larvae off using walls to breaking bee queen's kite pattern with a boat.

Larvae not being able to damage stone walls and sliding off/having to go around does make sense.

Bee queen suddenly not being able to fly right because of a boat doesn't.

And from my perspective it doesn't make much sense that the larvae made of magma can't swim through a lava pond.

[goblinball]

Of course with everything, it’s ultimately up to the developers and their intent, but I think in this case especially it ultimately boils down to developer intent.

Do the devs want the players to experience the bosses how they’re intended to be played? Then cheese should be removed.

Are the devs ok with it and want players to get more creative and take gameplay into their own hands? Then sure, keep the cheese.

I don’t think you can really argue for or against cheese unless you are the developer yourself.

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, goblinball said:

Of course with everything, it’s ultimately up to the developers and their intent, but I think in this case especially it ultimately boils down to developer intent.

Do the devs want the players to experience the bosses how they’re intended to be played? Then cheese should be removed.

Are the devs ok with it and want players to get more creative and take gameplay into their own hands? Then sure, keep the cheese.

I don’t think you can really argue for or against cheese unless you are the developer yourself.

This is 50/50 and… furthermore- the more new tools Klei adds to the game, the more new strategies players are going to attempt to come up with.

The MOST likely reason BQ path finding was changed over water was because of NEWER content and really cool gameplay options that present itself FROM adding that newer content- for example as of Curse of Moon Quay players were able to build their own land tiles over ocean water (Aka dock tiles) this very same update also added in the Canonballs so of course players were going to build their very own At Sea dock full of canons in the middle of the ocean.

Personally I wish they would add actual swimming mechanics to some of the bosses (Deerclops/Bearger) I just wanna see them wade through water at about waist depth, it could even slightly hinder their movement speed or something cool like that.

Point is: People we’re exploiting Beequeen A.I. not knowing what to do in a particular situation and Klei decided to fix it.

Im sure the same logic would apply to other areas of the game as well- Wickerbottom can now summon eternal rainfall, wouldn’t that idk like.. simmer down Dragonfly or at the very least extinguish her Larvae?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Personally I wish they would add actual swimming mechanics to some of the bosses (Deerclops/Bearger) I just wanna see them wade through water at about waist depth, it could even slightly hinder their movement speed or something cool like that.

would be super cool to see them raise from the ocean like godzilla

[Masked Koopa]

I feel like most enemies/friendlies should be able to swim. Hell, let players swim as well. All you have to do is introduce appropriate constraints to speed and limit the types of action that can be performed.

[firoborn]

Wasn't the boat thing a secondary effect of an added code so bee queen wouldn't fly into the ocean while fighting her?

 

[HowlVoid]

4 hours ago, firoborn said:

Wasn't the boat thing a secondary effect of an added code so bee queen wouldn't fly into the ocean while fighting her?

 

Now bee queen can cheese the player, 10/10 bug update. 

Next bug fix: Larvae can now build walls around the player. Actually, that would be kinda funny.

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Im sure the same logic would apply to other areas of the game as well- Wickerbottom can now summon eternal rainfall, wouldn’t that idk like.. simmer down Dragonfly or at the very least extinguish her Larvae?

Rain and snow decreases the duration a lavae will live before it pops.  This is noticeable when fighting dfly during heavy snow / rain as the lavae will start popping before she finishes summoning them, preventing her from reaching her summon cap and returning to fight you, leading to her loop-summoning dozens of lavae and sometimes even losing aggro on the player before she returns forcing players to restart the fight.

Not a problem if you are tackling the lavae with ice staves or combatting them as she summons them, but definitely something you'll see if you do the wall method at the wrong time lol