Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[nimzowitsch10]

I know a couple more boss cheeses that are way worse than the bee queen boat cheese.

[Mike23Ua]

Yes, all cheese should be removed it gets moldy after awhile.

But only if they plan to make improvements elsewhere (Better A.I., Reworked fight, Skill preference settings, etc..)

[Well-met]

sure

[ArubaroBeefalo]

who cares how others play? some people needs to expend more time having fun and less being bitter about how others have fun

[00petar00]

Great idea, let's remove cheese, so everyone is forced to play how specific people think it should be played without even acknowledging that this is sandbox game and there is no competition or pvp.

Not that there is anything stopping anyone from playing how they think is "fair" if they want to, they are just jealous when you kill a boss without investing that many resources.

[Yuuko]

The whole point of a sandbox game is to give players an environment with different interactions and let them do with it what they will.

Every time Klei does this they are taking options off the table.  If they do it enough there won't be a game left to play.

This isn't Final Fantasy or Dark Souls.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

the only bugs that must be fixed are the ones that affects every body no matter their gameplay preference

i didnt knew that bq acts like that in a boat so you can see how much i care about this change while klaus sack collision affected me when playing even by accident

 

[nimzowitsch10]

Me personally I'm indifferent to whether they patch boss cheese or not. I just find it strange the toadstool and fuelweaver lureplant cheese seems 5x worse than the bee queen boat method  but they chose to patch the bee queen one which I don't even really consider a cheese. I also know a way to use a fire farm to kill bee queen which again is far worse than getting on a boat to kill her while still taking damage from her.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the only bugs that must be fixed are the ones that affects every body no matter their gameplay preference

i didnt knew that bq acts like that in a boat so you can see how much i care about this change while klaus sack collision affected me when playing even by accident

 

The loot sack wasn't a bug.  It was an indestructible object that blocked movement.  If it effected you, that was the game effecting you.  Might as well complain you can't walk over water.

That change was much more egregious then this.  If the pathing was actually buggy and they fix it?  Sure.

What really troubles me are changes like Wanda can't attack over small gaps in ruins, Klaus loot sack no longer obstructs Klaus while still being an obstruction for all other purposes, changing smolder times to be random just to screw over 1 boss cheese.  These were all things working as intended that Klei changed to appease some whiny bunch of players who can't stand to see someone else do something differently.

Just like lavae and the wall - its actually working exactly as it should now.  Some whiny players don't like that and want it changed.  They actually want the consistent rules of the game changed to something more arbitrary just because they don't like seeing players do something different.

And the game is worse for it.  It creates inconsistent behavior which intrudes on the play experience and makes the game feel more buggy.  Why does Klaus sack block me, and all other mobs, but not Klaus?  just b/c, there is no reason.  Any why?  Because we decided to.

Every patch notes that reads "we took away player options" is a failure.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The loot sack wasn't a bug.  It was an indestructible object that blocked movement.  If it effected you, that was the game effecting you.  Might as well complain you can't walk over water.

was the first example that came to my mind lel

[Mike23Ua]

I find it ironic that the people who kept telling me to get good are now the same ones complaining about certain cheeses being patched out, and that’s not just 1 particular forum member, it’s actually 3 or 4 of y’all.. but I’m not going to call anyone out on that, I’m just going to say that if Klei felt it was an exploit or an unintended bug then they patched it, simple as that.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Hardly use cheese, don't care what happens.

I want better mob interactions I guess like how hounds can jump into water or bees flying over fences and walls.

Make things make sense and make it look better.

[xhyom]

2 hours ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

I know a couple more boss cheeses that are way worse than the bee queen boat cheese.

I'm curious, I can't think of any bugs like this or worse on other bosses, I just remember the one that pushes the toadstool and traps him with lureplants, but I think this is so complicated that it's easier to fight normally.
I don't count walls in Dragonfly because I can't consider that a bug, it's simply strategy, the same for outsourcing the boss with minions.

[Tranoze]

Take away bee queen cheese -> Less people have beequeen crown and bundle wrap -> Less people have the need to buy crown and wrap skins -> profit?

[BezKa]

6 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Take away bee queen cheese -> Less people have beequeen crown and bundle wrap -> Less people have the need to buy crown and wrap skins -> profit?

That's the silliest argument I have ever seen.

 

[nimzowitsch10]

@xhyom

Here are all the "broken" cheese I know:

The toadstool lureplant cheese. It is not complicated at all. All you need is maybe 3 ice staffs or a panflute to make toadstool immobile and use the push mod or fossils to push him away from his hole and then set up the lureplant. After that all you do is hit toadstool and chop trees and he uses none of his moves. It is really broken.

There is also the fuelweaver lureplant cheese. You trap fuelweaver on the corner of the atrium using a lureplant, Use gates to push yourself in the void and kill him from outside the atrium, he will not use any of his moves. Any character can do this and it is also very broken.

There is the bee queen oven cheese where you set up a beefalo barrier or a no eyed deer barrier, she will try to fly towards you but the beefalo will prevent her from doing so. Set up a stack of 24 individual smoldering items where she is stuck. The best item to use is grass tuft or rope because it has the longest burn timer. Then cast a star under them to burn and use a flingo to extinguish them. This takes about a day which isn't bad.

There is the crab king cheese where you catch 30-40 bees and you put them in a chest near crab king, spawn crab king, let him destroy the boat, then get another boat and row around him, not too far away or he will use his freeze move. The bees will sting him to death and it takes around half a day.

There is the knight boat cheese where you put 40+ knight statues on a boat. When you spawn the shadow pieces only the knight cannot cross the water so you can set up 40 + 1 gunpowder and a firestafff to kill all the tier 3 shadow knights to farm crazy amounts of fuel, hearts, swords, night armor.

Use panflutes or sleepytime stories on the twins of terror forever and they will never be able to attack even once.

All these cheeses are available on youtube, I mostly learned all this from klei public servers

[Tranoze]

Do you guys consider spawn 3 tentacles pit at BQ is a cheese? Spawn Twin to kill bosses is a cheese?

When i first play this game, what hooked me is that you dont have to attack enemy to kill them, enemies have their own mechanic and can attack/kill each other and you loot the profit. This is not a RPG game where all enemies are allies together to kill you, this is survival game where you use enemy against each other and you loot the final profit.

Without those creative move (specially spawn twin to kill boss) all bosses is just dodge and/or face tank them till either you or both death, which is boring af.

Ofcourse, over time, people start to copy the best move, and people start calling them cheese, but keep removing best move until there are no move left, what there to play?

[SullyD]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

who cares how others play? some people needs to expend more time having fun and less being bitter about how others have fun

Wow, what happened to you? You don't look like the same person from Maxwell's beta, interesting.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, SullyD said:

Wow, what happened to you? You don't look like the same person from Maxwell's beta, interesting.

cheese doesnt affect me most of the time, mechanics and balance in a character i like do. Pd. im really happy with the final product, klei did a great job

[PetulantPansy]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The loot sack wasn't a bug.  It was an indestructible object that blocked movement.  If it effected you, that was the game effecting you.  Might as well complain you can't walk over water.

That change was much more egregious then this.  If the pathing was actually buggy and they fix it?  Sure.

What really troubles me are changes like Wanda can't attack over small gaps in ruins, Klaus loot sack no longer obstructs Klaus while still being an obstruction for all other purposes, changing smolder times to be random just to screw over 1 boss cheese.  These were all things working as intended that Klei changed to appease some whiny bunch of players who can't stand to see someone else do something differently.

Just like lavae and the wall - its actually working exactly as it should now.  Some whiny players don't like that and want it changed.  They actually want the consistent rules of the game changed to something more arbitrary just because they don't like seeing players do something different.

And the game is worse for it.  It creates inconsistent behavior which intrudes on the play experience and makes the game feel more buggy.  Why does Klaus sack block me, and all other mobs, but not Klaus?  just b/c, there is no reason.  Any why?  Because we decided to.

Every patch notes that reads "we took away player options" is a failure.

In fairness, I don't think the Wanda/Klaus example was a good one. If you let one specific survivor make a boss fight significantly easier than for any other survivor, that's not good for game balance. In a multiplayer world, the chances that a wanda could solo Klaus at the start of every winter (because she didn't need to prepare anything other than some nightmare fuel and 1 piece of armor she probably already had on her) are fairly high. 

That makes such a world not fun to play in for all the other non-wanda survivors. So two things happen - the other players rarely get to fight Klaus and experience the fun fight, or more and more people play wanda to experience her "op" powers. That's not good for game balance. 

Now of course, the argument isn't as simple as I made it. The real issue began when wanda was introduced with a powerful ranged weapon, but that's an entirely separate discussion (and the cat has long been out of the bag). 

 

[SullyD]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

cheese doesnt affect me most of the time, mechanics and balance in a character i like do. Pd. im really happy with the final product, klei did a great job

I get it, cheese is okay, but if some character is better than yours it affects you. The true paladin of game balancing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

37 minutes ago, SullyD said:

I get it, cheese is okay, but if some character is better than yours it affects you. The true paladin of game balancing.

the ****? okey dude, think that isntead of accepting that not everybody shares your bland argumented opinion. When you change that mindset you will be able to  realize that im playing maxwell and enjoying him more than with you casual suggestions

[BezKa]

I don't use many of them, so if those I don't use get patched i don't care, and if those that I use get patched I will find some other way to deal with the problem and not care.

 

[Cheggf]

Dude this is split so evenly between all 3. None have too much of a lead. Surprised to see it so balanced.

[dzzydzzy]

What are the other boss cheeses? I know technically the walls at Dfly are a cheese but I don’t consider them to be as it is a heavy enough resource cost for the technique. Does Bearger getting killed by treeguards count as a cheese? if so, I don't want that patched. there are plenty of toadstool cheeses ive never used but don't like the idea of those being patched since that fight is miserable solo and the rewards arent game breaking, just base building pretty.

I think this boat cheese for BQ was a great loss tho, only time ive ever beaten her solo was as Wurt with 20 merm guards on a boat.