Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[jamesblond721]

Honestly, with the whole bug fixing thing, I think they are handling it pretty well. Sure there will be bugs for your game, but as long as you know balance it is okay to fix them. I personally love what they are doing with the game as of right now, so I am pretty much on board with whatever they are doing. What a cool topic to talk about!  

[WendyRunner]

Everything related to boats with addition of docks should be fixed. But in the mean time, relaxed mode should become even more easier and get 1 official server in each region. Also relaxed mode needs to add more durability to all armors.

I think the correct decision is to remove all boss cheese but make relaxed mode a "cheese" mode.

[Guille6785]

12 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Rain and snow decreases the duration a lavae will live before it pops.  This is noticeable when fighting dfly during heavy snow / rain as the lavae will start popping before she finishes summoning them, preventing her from reaching her summon cap and returning to fight you, leading to her loop-summoning dozens of lavae and sometimes even losing aggro on the player before she returns forcing players to restart the fight.

this isn't true at all wtf

[Yuuko]

27 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

this isn't true at all wtf

Looked through the code and it does not seem to be the case at this point.  The behavior I described was behavior I experienced, so it must have had an impact before.

[Guille6785]

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Looked through the code and it does not seem to be the case at this point.  The behavior I described was behavior I experienced, so it must have had an impact before.

this was likely never the case, what you experienced was that if you let the last lavae of a wave die by itself dfly will have a 50% chance to either enrage or do another wave of lavae which could potentially loop forever

[DVGMedia]

So I am having a difficult time to find the so called cheese that people were complaining about.
I pretended to be a new player and searched up how to beat beequeen
and literally there was no boat cheese in any of the videos found.
There was some pathfinding ones with walls and gates.
But the rest were all just using mobs to take her out.
or using webber.
LIke for real just because you don't like something doesn't mean its rampant in the community.
The change literally does nothing for anyone. And is just making things more restrictive.

 

[MadMatt]

30 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I pretended to be a new player and searched up how to beat beequeen
and literally there was no boat cheese in any of the videos found.

I find this hard to believe unless you looked at only the top five results and nothing else. On one Youtube page looking up "DST how to kill bee queen" will yield about 3 or so videos using the boat cheese. Sometimes with the boat on the thumbnail itself.

Perhaps you meant google only but Youtube is a popular option for finding information about DST as well. The boat cheese method isn't easy to find per-say but to imply it's a non-issue because it's "hidden" is a stretch.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

 The boat cheese method isn't easy to find per-say but to imply it's a non-issue because it's "hidden" is a stretch.

and how many of the people who find it will actually try to use it, and how many will actually successfully replicate it, and how many will actually incorporate it in their real gameplay, and how many of those will actually use it around other people, and how many times will that actually just so happen to bother someone in the server

(never)

it is a non-issue

[DVGMedia]

9 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Perhaps you meant google only but Youtube is a popular option for finding information about DST as well. The boat cheese method isn't easy to find per-say but to imply it's a non-issue because it's "hidden" is a stretch.

I did search youtube and it took quite a bit of scrolling to actually find one of the boat and it was with wendy.
Majority of people don't look beyond the first 5 choices when searching something.
The point being  That majority of the people don't care or just don't know about it.
So people like you guys bringing up cheeses. Are the ones bringing the idea to light. Exposing it to more people that don't know about it.
Will they use it No one really knows.
Its only a thought bubble that they may just end up forgetting exists when they boot up their world to play with their friends.
Its not a rampant use case everywhere.
and even if a player stumbles across a cheese
Like say the beequeen pathfinding with gates and walls. Everything is working as intended.
They player still will not suddenly become a god at playing the game.  LIke look at some of the more inexperienced streamers of this game.
Ive watched them attempt multiple times these "cheese" and fail at them just because they cant perform the actions to do it.

So even saying that a cheese is a guaranteed boss kill is not even true.

 

[MadMatt]

30 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

and how many of the people who find it will actually try to use it, and how many will actually successfully replicate it, and how many will actually incorporate it in their real gameplay, and how many of those will actually use it around other people, and how many times will that actually just so happen to bother someone in the server

(never)

it is a non-issue

That wasn't even my point, I was arguing against the idea that the cheese being discussed couldn't be found, not that using cheese is "damaging" to the game or other players. I don't care if it's removed or added back, she's a bad fight who gives lackluster rewards for how I play.

19 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I did search youtube and it took quite a bit of scrolling to actually find one of the boat and it was with wendy.
Majority of people don't look beyond the first 5 choices when searching something.

I found two others, one with Wolfgang and Winona. The Winona one is actually pretty cool, she uses a flingo and scalemail on a boat. Wolfgang was just a wall coffin and although not a boat requires BQ to fly over water to freeze her in place. Not arguing that it's something brand new players can do, but again to refute the idea it can't be found and utilized by someone. (That Winona one is actually really cool though check it) Also I hold issue with the idea that people aren't thorough when looking things up! When you want to know the ins and outs of the game for ego or practical reasons you delve very deep, so people who are atleast committed to making their lives easier will spend a significant amount of time digging through search results for important things like BQ loot.

Rest of the points I don't care for, it's not what i'm actually arguing. But I made this edit anyways to clarify and because I really wanna show that Winona video that was pog.

[BezKa]

Honest question- if Klei was to revert this change, how do you imagine they would announce this?

"Reverted the fix for Beequeens pathfinding ai failing while on the boat"? "Rolled back Beequeens behavior to getting stuck in thin air above a boat"? 

 

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Honest question- if Klei was to revert this change, how do you imagine they would announce this?

"Reverted the fix for Beequeens pathfinding ai failing while on the boat"? "Rolled back Beequeens behavior to getting stuck in thin air above a boat"? 

 

"Reverted the changes to Bee Queen's pathfinding behavior when approaching or within bodies of water. The most recent change to this behavior resulted in cases that negatively impacted the player experience when fighting this boss and further attention will be devoted to ensuring that we can maintain these older bossfights up to our modern standards of quality."

 

if you weren't aware, the reason for bq's pathfinding working that way was so she would never fly from land onto water (which sucks when it happens), when they removed that entire piece of code they also removed that failsafe and now the fight is objectively worse for everyone

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, BezKa said:

Honest question- if Klei was to revert this change, how do you imagine they would announce this?

"Reverted the fix for Beequeens pathfinding ai failing while on the boat"? "Rolled back Beequeens behavior to getting stuck in thin air above a boat"? 

 

Unfortunately I don't expect any company is mature and transparent enough to admit they've made a mistake.  I argue pretty passionately against jumping in to hastily "fix" these things because in my experience its a one way door.  Klaus' sack was a great tech that players of any character could employ as a way of dodging Klaus' leap attack and now that's gone.  What's left is an unexpected interaction that is likely to be perceived as buggy behavior because it is inconsistent with the rest of the world, but that's where we're at, and where we'll stay :\ 

[BezKa]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Unfortunately I don't expect any company is mature and transparent enough to admit they've made a mistake.  I argue pretty passionately against jumping in to hastily "fix" these things in my experience, its a one way door.  Klaus' sack was a great tech that players of any character could employ as a way of dodging Klaus' leap attack and now that's gone.  What's left is an unexpected interaction that is likely to be perceived as buggy behavior because it is inconsistent with the rest of the world, but that's where we're at, and where we'll stay :\ 

This thread has brought me enormous amounts of joy. I've been laughing since it was created and I read the first responses. It feels like a comedy where people repeat the same thing over and over but somehow it gets funnier every time. But you take the cake for the funniest response in this entire topic- thanks, you've really made my day. Feels like a grand finale, all that is left is to close the thread.

 

[Yuuko]

22 minutes ago, BezKa said:

This thread has brought me enormous amounts of joy. I've been laughing since it was created and I read the first responses. It feels like a comedy where people repeat the same thing over and over but somehow it gets funnier every time. But you take the cake for the funniest response in this entire topic- thanks, you've really made my day. Feels like a grand finale, all that is left is to close the thread.

 

[BezKa]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Mocking and belittling me isn't appreciated :\ 

Sorry, I have a really bad time portraying my tone through text, I was just so amused I didn't think about how I sound. I probably still sound just as rude, I'm sorry. I don't really know how to properly relay that I didn't mean to laugh at you- it's just the thread as a whole, I can't really explain it. Again, sorry, would you like me to hide that post?

[Pennies]

On 12/2/2022 at 5:29 AM, Thrul said:

if it's slightly better in a clever way, and doesn't mess up the gameplay to the lengths that you people go on tirades like this, then it doesn't need to be removed. i think its a good indicator of a strategy being too overpowered and thus a cheese when people cannot live without it.

You’re being unfair to called ‘us people’ using the boat to kill BQ unskilled, inexperienced and incompetent. It takes skill to survive long enough to find out about a giant bee boss and that hitting it with a hammer causes a boss fight to initiate. It takes experience and skill to survive the fight long enough to find out about her kiting patterns and where/when the BQ will or will not move away from you. If others want to look up a tutorial on this boss because they’re curious that shouldn’t be a reason to punish previously experienced players who found out about this themselves or from their friends who were excited to gain more knowledge about a boss’ hidden mechanics. I want to play the game with as many options available. Sometimes I will fight BQ normally because I enjoy the fight, sometimes I will use the boat when I need to save time and just need a few jellybeans towards the end of the game. It is very inconsiderate and unfair to look down/ assume the worst about people who use boat as if we can’t handle BQ any other way. 

[Iino]

Why is there so much drama over this? It's KLei's game and they can do whatever they want with it, and I trust and support their decisions completely. It's not like they saw it one day and said "oh this exist let's patch it", countless thoughts unbeknownst to us went into this decision and I think it's awesome.

I literally admited to using this cheese so much I was feeding jellybeans to my eyemask, to me this is a huge lost but it's not the end of the world and I'll still play the game the exact same way.

[Capybara007]

1 hour ago, Iino said:

Why is there so much drama over this? It's KLei's game and they can do whatever they want with it

that very akward moment when you realize the game is for the players, not for the devs

[Frosty_Mentos]

Cheeses shouldn't be removed... Until we get more depth to the overall ingame mechanics and combat. There's a lot of potential and there's a lot of things the game is incredibly lacking where it funnels down to easiest solutions to beating something or farming some boss. There's some real nasty weird cheeses out there which I wouldn't want to be removed till that happens cause they just give me convenience to build and do things I wanna do.

[Gashzer]

12 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

"Reverted the changes to Bee Queen's pathfinding behavior when approaching or within bodies of water. The most recent change to this behavior resulted in cases that negatively impacted the player experience when fighting this boss and further attention will be devoted to ensuring that we can maintain these older bossfights up to our modern standards of quality."

 

if you weren't aware, the reason for bq's pathfinding working that way was so she would never fly from land onto water (which sucks when it happens), when they removed that entire piece of code they also removed that failsafe and now the fight is objectively worse for everyone

Yeah you can place docks in the water to chase her into the ocean if you want now. People forget Bee queen is a RAID boss. Not a first autumn boss you rush by day 11... it should take the average player an ingame year of building up a base and gathering resources/thulecite gear/healing/bunnymen backup before even thinking of challenging bee queen solo.

Raid bosses are meant to be difficult. If people are extremely dependent on glitches to kill them (which from this thread seems to be the case), maybe they don't deserve the high-tier loot these raid bosses drop? 

Either turn down the damage amount in settings or use legit mechanics the game gives you...

• speed boost (mag/cane/cobblestone) for kiting grumbles then tank bee queen with thulecite crown and healing.
• or bunnymen army
• or celestial portal to change to winona for catapults
• or weremoose woodie with were pig army (lose royal jelly to pigs but easy method to do for blueprint and crown)
• or wurt for merm army
• or webber for spider army
• or wendy who is still as good as ever with abigail
• or new maxwell with shadow prison/thulecite gear/duelists is pretty good too if you can juggle different spells well.
• or walter with mag/cane/cobblestone with slingshot thulecite rounds can destroy bee queen easily without getting hit once just takes awhile (its my personal go to, i do this method with 9 football helmet bunnymen to speed up first 2 phases)

The game gives you so many options to kill bee queen legit, why is everyone crying over one bug being removed? You have plenty of methods listed above that rewards good prep work to wreck her.

 

[Capybara007]

 

9 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Yeah you can place docks in the water to chase her into the ocean if you want now. People forget Bee queen is a RAID boss. Not a first autumn boss you rush by day 11.

what does that have to do with anything, people r only allowed to play one way only?

 

[Dextops]

21 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

it should take the average player an ingame year of building up a base and gathering resources/thulecite gear/healing/bunnymen backup before even thinking of challenging bee queen solo

That statement is so utterly absurd. There is not a single conceivable way where this could be implemented in a good way. You are just actively screwing solo players for no good reason cause you believe a boring boss with a few attacks should be an even worse resource dump

[ArubaroBeefalo]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Not a first autumn boss you rush by day 11... it should take the average player an ingame year of building up a base and gathering resources/thulecite gear/healing/bunnymen backup before even thinking of challenging bee queen solo.

what? imagine waiting a whole year to fight BQ solo without cheese 

didnt try the boat cheese but i dont think it changed that much the resources needed to kill her

basically you are asking for having a grind fest to kill a boss for some reason. Any boss should cost that much time, at most the boss should have a "quest line" like fw or CC which dont need a whole year neither, and just because it feels different that just spawning them (i like that we have 2 bosses with quests but neither is should be a common thing for future bosses)

what you are suggesting will just made me drop the game. I like having options in the first days (im not a speed runner, not even good at rushing but i like killing some bosses before summer). Waiting a whole year grinding is ridiculous, surviving is easy once you know so early bosses spice up things. If i they force us to survive 4 season and make a functional base before thinking about killing raid bosses i rather drop the game.

This post really feels like someone triggered because he cant rush bosses early and see how others use exploits to make it less difficult or time consuming and, instead of learning how to rush them without cheese, like many of us did, complains to remove that cheese strats (which is simular to other user's comments and complains...)

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Raid bosses are meant to be difficult. If people are extremely dependent on glitches to kill them (which from this thread seems to be the case), maybe they don't deserve the high-tier loot these raid bosses drop? 

ye, difficult not artificial difficulty like your previous post suggested

a fight can be hard in many ways and grinding a whole year isn't the funniest (only a non experience player will grind one year and will be because of lacking experience)

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The game gives you so many options to kill bee queen legit, why is everyone crying over one bug being removed? You have plenty of methods listed above that rewards good prep work to wreck her.

i dont think anybody is crying because the bug was removed, i dont think it was that effective of worth, but for what it means... i though it was obvious after these many comments

[Capybara007]

guys check out the new bq strat i just came up with

first you need 90 bunnymen hutches (you can get them in the first season cycles)

then you need 10 bazillion thulecite crowns, i also recommend farming shelmets or turtle shells just to be safe, since this is a raid boss, you must prepare obviously

cook a stack of mandrake soup (farm klaus for mandrakes) and you are good to go! now you can defeat bee queen legit without any filthy cheese