Since klei just fixed the bee queen boat cheese, do you think they should tackle the other ones?

[Yuuko]

41 minutes ago, Thrul said:

mmmm i guess you are right; skill isn't needed but makes battles a lot faster. i just hate taking a "strat" off youtube then magically being able to easily beat bosses like its some kind of memorization game.

Name a game where you can't just youtube a strat and copy it => I'll wait................................................................................................................

24 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Not a strawman, just an example. 

Ah, it's not just walls that this technique requires, no? It's the Lavae's inability to "see" lava pools and get stuck on them that makes this strategy possible? This is an interaction that is not intentionally coded for. And is thus; by all definitions of the word; and exploit. If walls worked 100% as intented, then the Lavae would target them once they realized they couldn't get to you. 

Believe it or not, balance is actually extremely important. Even in PvE games. If it wasn't, then; well; we'd never get any balance changes. Like when a ton of overpriced items got cost-dropped across the board. Or when we got Wolfgang 3.0. And "Just don't use it" also isn't the witty come back you seem to think it is. Believe it or not, game balance isn't as simple as letting people self-moderate what they think of as balanced.

Only 2 blue gems? Maybe as Wolfgang, but I can't see that being nearly enough for anyone with a default damage modifier. It's 3 ice staff blasts per Lavae, a staff only has 20 durability, and D.fly summons a lot of Lavae. I'd expect atleast 4-5 for an average fight. 

Lava ponds, trees, marble statues, walls, these are all things the developers coded.  Any interactions between the mobs and these are as they coded them.

None of this is injected by me or my imagination as your strawman purports.

Balance means very different things depending on the game you're playing.  In a fighting game you need to balance characters around each other so that they all have ways to open up, do damage, defend etc.  In a combat game like dark souls you balance the weapons against each other.  As the game is centered around combat, this means each weapon type must be combat viable.  In a sandbox survival game balance is something completely different.  Wolfgang and Wanda are combat focused characters.  They can, should, and do outperform any non-combat related character hands down.  This is balanced because while they are good at combat, combat is only part of the game.  Winona is specifically avoid combat through smart setups, and building walls, utilizing the interactions of lavae with walls and magma ponds, playing a pan flute to cancel dfly's rage mode => all using game interactions as provided by the developers to play how we want.j

And no - this isn't some mmorpg so we don't need to consider what another person may want.  We can play solo, with our friends, or pub worlds.  If you join a pub world you're one player among many.  If you want to fight dfly without a wall then do it.  They can force you to do it with a wall as easily as you can force them to do it without (which is to say, you can't.)

[Theukon-dos]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Lava ponds, trees, marble statues, walls, these are all things the developers coded.  Any interactions between the mobs and these are as they coded them.

None of this is injected by me or my imagination as your strawman purports.

Yeah that's absolutely not how it works. Klei gave these objects hitboxes, Klei didn't make mobs avoid the hitboxes of these objects. That's not something they specifically coded for, that's an oversight in how several different objects interact and behave. Nothing "Intended" about it. 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Balance means very different things depending on the game you're playing.  In a fighting game you need to balance characters around each other so that they all have ways to open up, do damage, defend etc.  In a combat game like dark souls you balance the weapons against each other.  As the game is centered around combat, this means each weapon type must be combat viable.  In a sandbox survival game balance is something completely different.  Wolfgang and Wanda are combat focused characters.  They can, should, and do outperform any non-combat related character hands down.  This is balanced because while they are good at combat, combat is only part of the game.  Winona is specifically avoid combat through smart setups, and building walls, utilizing the interactions of lavae with walls and magma ponds, playing a pan flute to cancel dfly's rage mode => all using game interactions as provided by the developers to play how we want.

While you're right that Winona tries to avoid direct combat. But that still doesn't mean that the wall trick is intended. And I just don't understand how you think it is. 

The Pan Flute trick is; as you said; an intended mechanic. You play the flute, the flute tells Dragonfly to un-enrage and go to sleep. That is clearly an intended interaction.

There is nothing intentional about Lavae getting stuck on ponds. If the devs did intend for these to interact, then you'd expect the Lavae to jump over or swim through the ponds. Not simply get stuck. 

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

And no - this isn't some mmorpg so we don't need to consider what another person may want.  We can play solo, with our friends, or pub worlds.  If you join a pub world you're one player among many.  If you want to fight dfly without a wall then do it.  They can force you to do it with a wall as easily as you can force them to do it without (which is to say, you can't.)

I never said you need to consider what other people want? Believe it or not, balance is just as important in Solo play as it is in Multiplayer play. 

[Yuuko]

Just now, Theukon-dos said:

Yeah that's absolutely not how it works. Klei gave these objects hitboxes, Klei didn't make mobs avoid the hitboxes of these objects. That's not something they specifically coded for, that's an oversight in how several different objects interact and behave. Nothing "Intended" about it. 

While you're right that Winona tries to avoid direct combat. But that still doesn't mean that the wall trick is intended. And I just don't understand how you think it is. 

The Pan Flute trick is; as you said; an intended mechanic. You play the flute, the flute tells Dragonfly to un-enrage and go to sleep. That is clearly an intended interaction.

There is nothing intentional about Lavae getting stuck on ponds. If the devs did intend for these to interact, then you'd expect the Lavae to jump over or swim through the ponds. Not simply get stuck. 

I never said you need to consider what other people want? Believe it or not, balance is just as important in Solo play as it is in Multiplayer play. 

If its not intended then why are they not coded to behave differently?  Its not like they couldn't path around ponds the same way they path around other structures / edges of map / etc...

Fact is Klei made DST embracing emergent game play.  It was very much a game of "we made this world, now you can play in it."  Its only recently that they decided to start playing heavy handed "bug fixing" things they don't like.  Seriously, making the loot sack not block Klaus movement is unintuitive, defying conventional game logic.  That change doesn't improve the game for anyone, it just gives the finger to people playing in a way they decided they didn't like.

[Thrul]

47 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Name a game where you can't just youtube a strat and copy it => I'll wait................................................................................................................

You can take a strat off any game. My point is that some "strats" (really this is called cheese) are broken and do not need skill & experience.

If a strategy does not need skill & experience, it is flawed and should be removed.

The answer to your question is there isn't. It seems you missed my point.

[Cheggf]

12 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If its not intended then why are they not coded to behave differently? 

It took years for them to fix the bee queen bug. They don't have infinite programmers solely tasked with fixing bugs.

Idk why people keep comparing the item that doesn't do anything except sleep making things sleep with a boat making ai bug out and basically permanently disable. Seems disingenuous.

[HellHeater]

10 hours ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

There is the crab king cheese where you catch 30-40 bees and you put them in a chest near crab king, spawn crab king, let him destroy the boat, then get another boat and row around him, not too far away or he will use his freeze move. The bees will sting him to death and it takes around half a day.

unlike other cheeses in there this isnt cheese its a method due to how bad "original" fight is

there is not even a real way to kill crab king on solo most common way is ice staff weather pain and hold f and im pretty sure bees are not any worse than that

it would have been a cheese if there were a real way to fight the boss

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

It took years for them to fix the bee queen bug. They don't have infinite programmers solely tasked with fixing bugs.

Idk why people keep comparing the item that doesn't do anything except sleep making things sleep with a boat making ai bug out and basically permanently disable. Seems disingenuous.

Where did I compare pan flute to bee queen on a boat bug?

I've named a few very specific things that weren't bug fixes, just "nerf this tactic I don't like" changes.

Wanda cannot attack over the small gaps in the ruins and Klaus not being obstructed by his sack.

These were interactions working as intended, and with reason consistent with game logic.  Their changes actually create a less consistent world with more behavior someone might perceive as a bug.

Calls to change lavae / wall interaction are the same thing.  Its not a bug that lavae work how they do, and the game will be worse if these types of interactions continue to be removed.  This isn't dark souls, the combat simulator.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

If its not intended then why are they not coded to behave differently?  Its not like they couldn't path around ponds the same way they path around other structures / edges of map / etc...

Fact is Klei made DST embracing emergent game play.  It was very much a game of "we made this world, now you can play in it."  Its only recently that they decided to start playing heavy handed "bug fixing" things they don't like.  Seriously, making the loot sack not block Klaus movement is unintuitive, defying conventional game logic.  That change doesn't improve the game for anyone, it just gives the finger to people playing in a way they decided they didn't like.

This is some really weird logic because it could be taken in very silly directions for example it took quite a while for merms getting lost to get fixed so if this conversation had taken place during that period you could easily make the argument well that's what Kiel intend because merms are strong if it wasn't they would have fixed it by now. Just because something isn't addressed does not make it is a intended design by nature.  

[Cheggf]

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Where did I compare pan flute to bee queen on a boat bug?

Other people did. Only the first part was directed specifically at you. 

[Well-met]

38 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

If its not intended then why are they not coded to behave differently?  Its not like they couldn't path around ponds the same way they path around other structures / edges of map / etc...

Fact is Klei made DST embracing emergent game play.  It was very much a game of "we made this world, now you can play in it."  Its only recently that they decided to start playing heavy handed "bug fixing" things they don't like.  Seriously, making the loot sack not block Klaus movement is unintuitive, defying conventional game logic.  That change doesn't improve the game for anyone, it just gives the finger to people playing in a way they decided they didn't like.

What's defying conventional logic is when hulking bosses suddenly drop braindead and marked for death from an easily replicable, harmless non-combat side-effect. Klaus getting stuck on his own bag is the definition of unintuitive, do you even know what these words mean?

I recommend to start playing some other non-klei videogames to figure out how the world of programming bugs and exploits work. Even with their small overdue fixes, Klei is still extremely generous in that regard compared to any other company.

Having being part of quite a few game communities out there for two decades I can confirm this forum here is the only place I've seen where its users embrace and rely on blatant bugs so hard its pathetic

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, NoodlemanNed said:

i think all the examples you gave are perfectly fair, except for the fact that they really wernt done for balance purposes. When you want to balances things in a game you want to make every about as powerful as anything else, more or less.

Overpriced items getting cost reduced across the board was more because those overpriced items wernt being used by many people, its perfectly good content that gets ignored because of how little it does compared to the cost. Making pearl's shop items cost less isnt about making them on par with other strong items, its so people can reasonably play with those items without going through unreasonable effort.

But they were done for balance purposes if a item that's intended to be useful isn't worth making is tweaked to be more worth making that is a balance adjustment. In a game where balance doesn't matter the costs never needed to be adjusted because in a game without balance item accessibility doesn't really need to matter. Balance isn't just nerf this and buff that for example the farming update was a rebalance to farming and the beefalo bell and foods were a balance change to raising beefalo.

 

1 hour ago, NoodlemanNed said:

The reason i bring all this up is to say that balance really doesnt matter in a pve game

It's actually just as important in a pve game as a pvp game it's just when people here think of balance they think of something they dislike rather than the multitude of balance changes the community has liked.

 

1 hour ago, NoodlemanNed said:

especially in a more sanboxy one like dst.

I feel like this is said too often at the end of the day dst isn't just a sandbox game.

 

1 hour ago, NoodlemanNed said:

Focusing purely on balance results in things like the original wolfgang rework, they nerfed the character to the point where he was on par with most of the cast, the problem is that it made him incredible boring. The reason that rework went through multiple iterations is because it seems klei realized that players enjoying a character is what matters most in the end, i mean you could even argue wolfgang is even stronger now than he was before all of the changes.

On the flipside focusing on balance is the reason for the existence of the refreshes since without out the need for it we wouldn't have them.

[Yuuko]

37 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Having being part of quite a few game communities out there for two decades I can confirm this forum here is the only place I've seen where its users embrace and rely on blatant bugs so hard its pathetic

Kinda doubt you've played many games then.  Maybe check out some speed runs of like, literally any game ever?

[-Variant]

I personally feel that cheeses should only be fixed if they're entirely absurd or if whatever they're 'cheesing' is tweaked to make up for why people are abusing it anywyas.

Ancient Guardian is a good example. AG sucked. Can't debate it, if they fixed the pillars and left it alone, that'd be miserable.
But since the fight got reworked to be super fun, I think it's fair that the cheese is gone now that AG is a real genuine fun fight.

If there was some wacky cheese that lets you instantly get the Celestial Crown day like, 4 or whatever I'd of course want that gone. That throws off the balance of a lot of things. 
Simple things I could care less about.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Thrul said:

You can take a strat off any game. My point is that some "strats" (really this is called cheese) are broken and do not need skill & experience.

If a strategy does not need skill & experience, it is flawed and should be removed.

The answer to your question is there isn't. It seems you missed my point.

idk, as someone whos spend time showing people how to set up bqueen oven and dfly wall I don't think these strats take zero skill and experience.

But still fact remains - nothing is taken away from you, that I utilize a strat in my world.  If you feel you are constantly joining worlds where people refuse to do something a different way, majority says do x why should you be so special to override them?  If you're on a world where people want to do dfly without a wall, then have at it!

Nothing is at stake for you here, nothing changes for you - if anything gets patched out it only effects players who were using it.  Players who want to do it.

And that's the real problem with this entire debate.  Actual bugs getting fixed?  Great.  Most of these "cheese" things aren't actual bugs, they're just strategies that use the elements at our disposal to handle things as we wish.  Changing them doesn't help anyone.  It takes options away from some, and gives nothing back.  The game is definitively worse for it.

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, Thrul said:

If a strategy does not need skill & experience, it is flawed and should be removed.

so basically remove every strat ever except for literal challenge fights since every boss is incredibly easy to do without cheese with the right gear after 5 minutes of watching a youtube video

[00petar00]

What really bothers me is how so many believe that immersion is more important than gameplay, that is really never the case.

Players wouldn't play a game that doesn't have fluid or fun gameplay, even if its immersion was revolutionary in gaming.

Also players that have problems with pigs walking into a wall forever without going to their house shouldn't build pig farms, no one is forcing them so if you don't see it, why would it matter to you? I would want to know how many players would enjoy DST with all the cheese/builds removed that use any sort of exploit or something that breaks your immersion or abuses ai pathing like fossils or statues.

When it comes to Dragonfly fight, who is to say that lavae have an attack that can actually damage walls? At least to me, it doesn't look like it and if there was an animation of them jumping up and hitting wall and falling flat on ground without doing any damage, you would have no problems with it.

 

[ThymeSpirit]

15 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

Not that there is anything stopping anyone from playing how they think is "fair" if they want to

There kind of is, if you're playing with other people - almost no one ever wants to play legit once they discover the cheese. Arguing against a majority will only result in them thinking you are annoying and unfun.

[Cheggf]

Just now, ThymeSpirit said:

There kind of is, if you're playing with other people - almost no one ever wants to play legit once they discover the cheese. Arguing against a majority will only result in them thinking you are annoying and unfun.

I kill the bosses before they get a chance to cheese them because they always take like 500 years before they actually go do it

[ThymeSpirit]

Just now, Cheggf said:

I kill the bosses before they get a chance to cheese them because they always take like 500 years before they actually go do it

Ok? Are you telling everyone to git gud? How is a new player supposed to ever experience the game the way it was intended - with other players, but without cheese?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, Shosuko said:

If its not intended then why are they not coded to behave differently?  Its not like they couldn't path around ponds the same way they path around other structures / edges of map / etc...

do you really think that they know how everything interacts with everything? some of them didnt even worked in the same things so the person who made the lavaes might not even know how are coded certain structures or elements of the terrain

[EighteenXVIII]

Honestly the more Klei breaks the game, the better. I love all the unique strategies and exploits people come up with. So do your worst, developers. 

 

[Cheggf]

48 minutes ago, ThymeSpirit said:

Ok? Are you telling everyone to git gud? How is a new player supposed to ever experience the game the way it was intended - with other players, but without cheese?

I'm just saying what I do. You can also do what I do if you'd like.

[00petar00]

1 hour ago, ThymeSpirit said:

There kind of is, if you're playing with other people - almost no one ever wants to play legit once they discover the cheese. Arguing against a majority will only result in them thinking you are annoying and unfun.

But isn't that the point? Majority decides how they want the fight to be. There seems to be a lot of players on the forums that want "fair" fight, so I don't see why they can't make servers to play with others who agree with them.

If like 99% of players use cheese strategies, isn't there something wrong with how the boss fight currently exists? I don't think that it could ever be solved completely, as fighting in DST is just too simple for people to want to fight how it was "intended" after they have done it a couple of times.

The issue i see here is that if you fight bosses with other people they are already too easy, you don't really need to cheese it but if you do fight solo, it will be a big resource sink.

So technically it isn't good to remove it as in multiplayer you won't get to experience anything difficult, but players that fight bosses solo will suffer.

[Capybara007]

 

14 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

If like 99% of players use cheese strategies, isn't there something wrong with how the boss fight currently exists?

it kind of reminds me of how everyone cheeses moonstone event because of how poorly designed it is

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

do you really think that they know how everything interacts with everything? some of them didnt even worked in the same things so the person who made the lavaes might not even know how are coded certain structures or elements of the terrain

Its 2 things.  Walls and lavea.  That's it.  How complicated do you think this is?