[Game Update] - 530962

[LDee]

6 minutes ago, edulopes said:

why being so toxic my man @LDee

Not being toxic. I'm just getting tired of explaining the same point to you, followed by you addressing points that I didn't make again and again.

[edulopes]

1 minute ago, LDee said:

points that I didn't make again and again.

your point is "maxwell can do the same" but every caracter can do the same with more than half of those bosses...

[Seig Xeon]

Just now, LDee said:

Sure:

Deerclopse, Moose/Goose, Bearger, Bee Queen, Dragonfly, Celestial Champion, Eye of Terror, Klaus. 

 

Ones I agree with.  The strategy is amazing, and imo, only recent reworked characters (and Wanda) can do this fight with comparable efficiency/knowledge as a  Maxwell mindlessly spamming prison/duelist:
Bee Queen
Eye of Terror (this might change due to the hitbox change.  Have not tested yet).

Ones that are too close for me to not refute:
Dragonfly(hitbox and behavior changed may change my opinion about this as well. Need to test).
Celestial Champion(although the knowledge check is high compared the other bosses, I do think the prison strat is great. Not trivial though)

Ones I disagree with:
Deerclops-This fight is done too cheaply to compare efficiently (3ish nmf vs hambat/2spears/DS). The knowledge check is extremely low to do this fight as well.
Moose/Goose- While a tad more knowledge is needed for this fight compared to Deerclops, I would still consider this a low knowledge check. Resources are the same as Deerclops as well (3ish nmf vs hambat/2spears/DS)
Bearger- Same rationale as above. low knowledge check, and low resource requirement.
Klaus- The micromanaging of this fight was already high enough. Rework Maxwell has to micro manage this fight more than any other char in the game(if he uses the prison/duelist strat). This fights knowledge check is quite high too. I would consider the prison/deueist strat inferior compared to standard knowledge kite and attack strategy.   

Some points I'd like to bring up:

out of the 14 bosses (debatable number), worst case scenario, your point would cover 50% of the bosses, three of them being the easiest bosses in the game(Clops, Bearger, Moose/Goose).

best case scenario if you agree with all of my points, this drops that down to <15-30% (depending on perspective on my non-refuting bosses) .

I would consider that quite reasonable compared to the rest of the cast ability to "trivialize" bosses in the game.

[LDee]

Just now, edulopes said:

your point is "maxwell can do the same" but every caracter can do the same with more than half of those bosses...

That's not my point... hence why I'm getting tired 

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, skile said:

Winona did get a refresh, actually. the very first one

You are jogging my memory.

It's been so long now I am being flooded with terrible memories of the first 3 refreshes and the new reign arc, disease, updates in parts, cryptic messages, no ocean content,no caves, no new characters, content without a purpose yet...

We have come so far now.

Those old reworks don't hold up to the slow power creep happening over time.

[Soul7k]

20 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Will spell placement and menu navigating be overhauled for controllers when Maxwell's rework comes out?

Opening a menu to emote or sort inventory freezes the character in place and the targeting for casting is kinda awkward for other similar items

I was hoping for some changes since Maxwell is gonna be doing a lot of both.

interacting with the spells is fine, but as for placement it just kinda has it cast a bit in front of wherever you are facing...which is ok, but it would be a bit nicer if you could move the spell around with right stick while casting or until you cancel out of the spell, but as of right now right stick navigates your items and crafts while you have a spell out

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, Soul7k said:

interacting with the spells is fine

Can you move and select spells?

[LDee]

4 minutes ago, Seig Xeon said:

Ones I agree with.  The strategy is amazing, and imo, only recent reworked characters (and Wanda) can do this fight with comparable efficiency/knowledge as a  Maxwell mindlessly spamming prison/duelist:
Bee Queen
Eye of Terror (this might change due to the hitbox change.  Have not tested yet).

Ones that are too close for me to not refute:
Dragonfly(hitbox and behavior changed may change my opinion about this as well. Need to test).
Celestial Champion(although the knowledge check is high compared the other bosses, I do think the prison strat is great. Not trivial though)

Ones I disagree with:
Deerclops-This fight is done too cheaply to compare efficiently (3ish nmf vs hambat/2spears/DS). The knowledge check is extremely low to do this fight as well.
Moose/Goose- While a tad more knowledge is needed for this fight compared to Deerclops, I would still consider this a low knowledge check. Resources are the same as Deerclops as well (3ish nmf vs hambat/2spears/DS)
Bearger- Same rationale as above. low knowledge check, and low resource requirement.
Klaus- The micromanaging of this fight was already high enough. Rework Maxwell has to micro manage this fight more than any other char in the game(if he uses the prison/duelist strat). This fights knowledge check is quite high too. I would consider the prison/deueist strat inferior compared to standard knowledge kite and attack strategy.   

Some points I'd like to bring up:

out of the 14 bosses (debatable number), worst case scenario, your point would cover 50% of the bosses, three of them being the easiest bosses in the game(Clops, Bearger, Moose/Goose).

best case scenario if you agree with all of my points, this drops that down to <15-30% (depending on perspective on my non-refuting bosses) .

I would consider that quite reasonable compared to the rest of the cast ability to "trivialize" bosses in the game.

In all these scenarios, you're comparing Maxwell spamming the two moves to a player who can kite these bosses perfectly which requires both skill and knowledge specific to the boss as well as time.

The post I was replying to compared Maxwell's spam to "just holding F".  So you have to factor in the resources, and knowledge required to tank these bosses.

Edited November 15, 2022 by LDee

[JoeW]

Keep comments on topic and not about each other or move on to another thread. If you're posting about another person, you're off-topic and you need to move on. Thanks. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just now, JoeW said:

Keep comments on topic and not about each other or move on to another thread. If you're posting about another person, you're off-topic and you need to move on. Thanks. 

Controller update please.

[Cheggf]

33 minutes ago, HanTears said:

I don't like this change, it prevents players from cooperating, and when a new player is fighting shadow creatures, I can only watch him die. When I'm playing with new players, I can't get the Nightmare Amulet before they get attacked by shadow creatures.
We should not increase the difficulty of other players (especially new players) because of the rework of a character. Last time QOL added a design that is more friendly to novices, so I think this change needs more consideration.

You can drop them armor, weapons, and healing so that they can kill their own shadows and actually solve the problem instead of you stealing all their sanity gain from killing shadows.

[Wenhelxing]

Klei is just presenting maxwell's lore with this update. Relax guys, maxy got nerfed so hard he became william carter again

[Seig Xeon]

Just now, LDee said:

In all these scenarios, you're comparing Maxwell spamming the two moves to a player who can kite these bosses perfectly which requires both skill and knowledge specific to the boss.

The post I was replying to compared Maxwell's spam to "just holding F".  So you have to factor in the resources, and knowledge required to tank these bosses.

If that is how my post was understood, let me clarify:

I considered the skill between the two players to be equivalent. 
Ex. I would consider a player who can "time" shadow prison recasts back to back with around a 15% loss in duration from the last prison, and the skill of a player who can count to 4 and run behind a boss (deerclops) to be around the same skill.

Resources were bought in. The weapon vs. nmf. Armor was not bought up due to affecting both parties (although if maxwell gets hits with no armor by a boss, he is generally getting one shot vs the rest of the cast). With armor, resources are generally same between the two(this is rebuttable). The fights where armor matters more to the melee strat char vs Maxwell, are not the fights I disagree with you (Klaus may be pushing it with this point, but I think this is a fair tradeoff with Maxwell prison/duelist being so hard to utilize in the fight in comparison).

In my original post replying to you, I attempted to steelman your stance on the matter (Maxwell has the easiest, cheapest, and requires less effort/knowledge against bosses. If I am misunderstanding your stance, please let me know). If that is not your stance on the current iteration of reworked Maxwell, please let me know, as this is why I was interested in replying. I'd hate to put words in your mouth when you have a different opinion.

Hope that clears up some misunderstanding so you can reply to my points.

[edulopes]

meanwhile all you guys discuss about maxwell is OP for bosses and all, any caracter can use this...

is this a Bug or an feature??? or abuse

@JesseB_Klei// @V2C
will this be removed or fixed or changed?

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, edulopes said:

meanwhile all you guys discuss about maxwell is OP for bosses and all, any caracter can use this...

is this a Bug or an feature??? or abuse

Verdict is let's see what the judges say.

Judge 1: bug

Judge 2: exploit that needs to be patched

Judge 3: what did I just watch

[Soul7k]

33 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Can you move and select spells?

Yes you can. It still lets you move with left stick while picking with right

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just now, Soul7k said:

Yes you can. It still lets you move with left stick while picking with right

Rejoice

[edulopes]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Judge 3: what did I just watch

[Cloakingsumo198]

12 minutes ago, edulopes said:

meanwhile all you guys discuss about maxwell is OP for bosses and all, any caracter can use this...

is this a Bug or an feature??? or abuse

@JesseB_Klei// @V2C
will this be removed or fixed or changed?

It comes with a downside of dying IRL from boredom

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Merms , Pigs , Spiders can follow you and are not restricted to a circle where they can attack and attack more frequently / consistently than shadows. AND most importantly take all the aggro unlike Shadows where enemies prioritize you over Shadows.

20 base dmg is too low for the way these Duelists work. 30 is fine , pre nerfs 40 was a bit too much.

but they need armor to tank as much as the duelist can tank bosses (except spiders+nurses in some fights) and even if they die you can resummon them by wasting a single piece of NF instead of all the food needed to be friend a respetable ammount of mobs. Duelist are one of the most efficient source of damage

if you want more damage in the beginning of autumn you can try to fast rush ruins or magic tab. Not even that, by just crafting his personal pokect shadow chester with few silk you are already increasing their damage.

The only characters that has a comparable start are wigfrid with her spear day one and wendy with an abigail that starts in her weak state

19 minutes ago, edulopes said:

meanwhile all you guys discuss about maxwell is OP for bosses and all, any caracter can use this...

is this a Bug or an feature??? or abuse

@JesseB_Klei// @V2C
will this be removed or fixed or changed?

fire farms exists. That justifies having a future player thst kills bosses with no player interaction?

report it if you consider that it should be fixed but bringing it here is a fallacy

[edulopes]

8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

That justifies having a future player thst kills bosses with no player interaction?

that dont justifies, i could not find the bug report on my cellphone :/

but entering this topic,  this is an method that everyone can use, so in the end bosses arent a problem anymore ultill fixed,
i always was against maxwell look and do all, i always liked more maxwell go in and kill but the damage's are just too far from wurt's so for me at least maxwell is invable for bossing if i just want to look

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, edulopes said:

always was against maxwell look and do all, i always liked more maxwell go in and kill but the damage's are just too far from wurt's so for me at least maxwell is invable for bossing if i just want to look

But he has far more fexibility, cheaper costs, as well as just flat out doing more useful things.

[edulopes]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

But he has far more fexibility, cheaper costs, as well as just flat out doing more useful things.

as we already discussed deppends, but the cheaper part, yeah i am with you
and now that prision is nefed, yeah for me bossing maxwell isnt material viable anymore at least most of them

[ALCRD]

25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but they need armor to tank as much as the duelist can tank bosses

Duelist can "tank" boses? Getting 2 shotted and needed to be resummoned isn't exactly "tanking"

Merms can also take like 2 or 3 hits without armor from bosses. And UNLIKE DUELISTS they thake ALL THE AGGRO.

25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Not even that, by just crafting his personal pokect shadow chester with few silk you are already increasing their damage.

Teeny tiny amount of damage increase at cost of survivability cause again enemies prioritize Maxwell over Shadows and Shadow Prison breaks easily now. So armor pieces are necessary unless you are godlike at kiting.

25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

The only characters that has a comparable start are wigfrid with her spear day one and wendy with an abigail that starts in her weak state

I mean if Maxwell's army of shadows is comparable to Abigal in her weak state then yea they do need a buff lol.

Like i said 30 base damage won't hurt and will make his Duelists less pathetic now after his other OP aspects that synergized too well with his Duelists has been nerf-stomped to the ground.

Edited November 15, 2022 by ALCRD

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, edulopes said:

as we already discussed deppends, but the cheaper part, yeah i am with you
and now that prision is nefed, yeah for me bossing maxwell isnt material viable anymore at least most of them

I mean if you don't like how the prison works with bosses you could just boss without it and just use your duelists.