[Game Update] - 530195

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Both wurt and maxwell are different enough now.

Maxwell is better for a more lazy on demand pocket army, good for players that can handle his low hp and can't be bothered recruiting followers.

Wurt is less dependent on her follows than maxwell, 250hp buff from merm king makes her one of the tankiest characters in the game... plus marble suit and she becomes nigh unkillable. Wurts merm guards follow her around so once setup, she doesnt have to waste time casting minions for every fight. Seasonal protection is insane with fish. And she can give her merms to others which maxwell cant do.

I more or less agree here but Wurt does end up wasting time still due to losing followers when she enters caves and needing to setup a king in caves to take advantage of guards in caves as well

[HeatAndRun]

29 minutes ago, edulopes said:

i recharged it, and it just gone from i think 70 or 65% to 89%

If you put "wet" nightmare fuel into the Codex Umbra it will only recharge approximately 19%(3/4 of original recharge value), since every wet fuels have less 3/4 value.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

I more or less agree here but Wurt does end up wasting time still due to losing followers when she enters caves and needing to setup a king in caves to take advantage of guards in caves as well

Yeah definitely takes wurt longer to get established but when she does, she is still just as strong and useful. The 75hp of maxwell will still punish people badly who don't get the casting timing right during fights... they both have good pros and cons that make them equal overall now. Before the rework Wurt was vastly superior tho.

[xhyom]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean if your using night armor maxwell should also have a very safe amount of hp or if your using bone armor he should have a decent amount of grace between attacks and having a pocket army means he's ready to fight or harvest whenever and wherever which can't be said for Wurt who needs to worry about shards and the like add his crowd control abilities to the mix and his combat is very safe I think it more so comes down to needing to adjust to his new style.

 

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Both wurt and maxwell are different enough now.

Maxwell is better for a more lazy on demand pocket army, good for players that can handle his low hp and can't be bothered recruiting followers.

Wurt is less dependent on her follows than maxwell, 250hp buff from merm king makes her one of the tankiest characters in the game... plus marble suit and she becomes nigh unkillable. Wurts merm guards follow her around so once setup, she doesnt have to waste time casting minions for every fight. Seasonal protection is insane with fish. And she can give her merms to others which maxwell cant do.

I mean yes, Maxwell has a different appeal but I don't think having those advantages right away makes that much of a difference, there isn't much of a moment when I really need an army out of the blue, wood is not something I need all the time, if I'm going to fight a boss I'm going to prepare myself before of course, so I don't think that's a big advantage. That's why I believe he is weaker, it's the same things but with more obstacles on the way to a result that can be even worse

I don't think he's bad I love the idea and how the mechanics work, but I don't think adjusting it down will make it better, because I know there are characters that can do much more than that I wish he could have more interesting benefits in some area that someone like Wurt wouldn't have

[whiteking]

With regard to the update of the puppet, each of the previous updates is reasonable. The third update is to make the puppet stronger because the combat puppet is too weak. The fourth update is to prevent Maxwell from standing idly by because the puppet is too strong, so he must participate in the fight. But what is the purpose of this update? With a huge influence range, more advanced equipment has more advanced increase effect. Why? Let Maxwell stand aside and show off his equipment?

[Aquaticbutter7]

2 hours ago, V2C said:

Additional Nightmare Fuel themed items that affect this damage scaling:

• Tier 1: All amulets
• Tier 2: Magician’s Top Hat, Dark Sword, Night Armor, Thulecite equipment
• Tier 3: Bone equipment (when fueled)

 

I did not get the chance to play the update and I am curious if there is an in-game way to find out that these items affect minion damage. Does Maxwell have special quotes for them? Or is there a visual indicator of some kind?

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, whiteking said:

With regard to the update of the puppet, each of the previous updates is reasonable. The third update is to make the puppet stronger because the combat puppet is too weak. The fourth update is to prevent Maxwell from standing idly by because the puppet is too strong, so he must participate in the fight. But what is the purpose of this update? With a huge influence range, more advanced equipment has more advanced increase effect. Why? Let Maxwell stand aside and show off his equipment?

To make duelists strong enough to solo bosses again but only if you can grind the right gear or yeno the simple task of killing ancient fuelweaver... 

[whiteking]

44 minutes ago, whiteking said:

I prefer the original appearance. His hat can provide a certain increase, but to a small extent. In this case, if you don't want your armor to wear too fast, you can wear a helmet; If you have enough confidence in your skills, you can wear a hat, and you can get some additional damage, but it is not obvious. I think this is a reasonable game mode, rather than determining the increase effect based on the strength of the equipment. It seems to tell others: I am nobler than you because I have money. I think it should be reversed. Maxwell is obviously a character who needs skills, so he should get stronger strength in a more dangerous state (wearing a hat without defense), rather than wearing a hat that can resist shadow monsters, wear a armor that can block any attack, and then hide to watch his puppet abuse boss

In other words, if the thulium mine suit is damaged, it is very painful. I can't even bear to use such things, so it should be reasonable to have a high increase effect. But what is the qualification of bone armor? It only needs cheap nightmare fuel to maintain its powerful ability. Do you want to make it more powerful now?

As for the influence range of equipment, it can be set between the previous version and the current version. If it is not feasible, the status of the previous version will be used. Now it really affects the game balance

[Wattata]

I think Devs are torn between wanting to listen to players' feedback to empower Maxwell and to balance Maxwell's power with other characters..

[Kappachinos296]

6 minutes ago, Thundario Watt said:

I think Devs are torn between wanting to listen to players' feedback to empower Maxwell and to balance Maxwell's power with other characters..

In my opinion they should of just kept it simple by keeping the current permanent minions and just implement some of the balance changes they did like the damage cap for duelists along will all the additional quality of life stuff like the new magician's hat, and no sanity penalty from shadow gear.

[Arthas Durotan]

27 minutes ago, Aquaticbutter7 said:

I did not get the chance to play the update and I am curious if there is an in-game way to find out that these items affect minion damage. Does Maxwell have special quotes for them? Or is there a visual indicator of some kind?

44 (60 dash?) DMG with shadow amor, sword and hat

60(100 dash) DMG with bone armor, helm and lamp thing. 52 if you swap to sword.

Feels ok to me. But using shadows to fight is difficult because of you taking the aggro all the time.

[DajeKotlyar]

I'd also like if whisp will add to list of dmg scaling items. Just a little fun touch)

[Banjolococo]

I can't wait to try this update! Looks really fun!

[Cyber_Joueur]

Thanks klei for these changes, according to my tests it is now easier to kite without losing the buff associated with the equipment, whereas before you had to find the right balance between not too far from the boss to keep the buff active and not too close to not get hit.

[Dragonboooorn]

3 hours ago, whiteking said:

Very bad... The effect of the bone suit is put too high. Compared with the shadow suit and thulium mine suit, they have no meaning. After skilled players kill the cave boss quickly, they don't need the shadow suit and thulium mine suit at all. I don't think this is a good data. The effect of the bone suit should be lower than them

You do realize that you need to kill shadow chesses first as well as do much preparation to actually kill fuelweaver? 

Fuelweaver is basicly end game boss. It make sence to have his loot being betterr than regular shadow equipment

[Creatorofswamps]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Do you really consider Wurt the winner here?

Yes

[whiteking]

1 hour ago, Dragonboooorn said:

You do realize that you need to kill shadow chesses first as well as do much preparation to actually kill fuelweaver? 

Fuelweaver is basicly end game boss. It make sence to have his loot being betterr than regular shadow equipment

With the update of the game, Fuelweaver will become more and more easy. When he first arrived, it was almost a nightmare. But what if Wanda was the one who challenged him now? What about later?

And facts have proved that Fuelweaver is not the end of the game. Now there are new bosses on Moon Island, and there will be more in the future

[sosiskaKi]

Please buff Nightmare Amulet. :3

[Dragonboooorn]

5 minutes ago, whiteking said:

With the update of the game, Fuelweaver will become more and more easy

Perhaps thats an error on the boss side then?

Current DST is much much easier then it ever before. We have literally growing bananas on your back yard, easy beefo taming and so on. Maxwell does not "cheese" bosses, his shadow kit provides alternative, one that perfectly fits his character theme and gameplay theme. 

9 minutes ago, whiteking said:

And facts have proved that Fuelweaver is not the end of the game.

Well, I think he is now. Since whole moon arc isnt complited yet and is kinda alternative to the fuelweaver－forge－gorge arc. We still dont know what happend to the fuelweaver nor survivors after the gorge

[knightand]

That's so boring when I own a beefalo.The only thing I had to go to was constantly using nightmare fuel, as well as watching from the sidelines.The last version was perfect enough

[Aquaticbutter7]

2 hours ago, Arthas Durotan said:

44 (60 dash?) DMG with shadow amor, sword and hat

60(100 dash) DMG with bone armor, helm and lamp thing. 52 if you swap to sword.

Feels ok to me. But using shadows to fight is difficult because of you taking the aggro all the time.

Sorry, but the damage values was not what I was intending to ask in my original post. I was asking if anyone (including a brand new player) would be able to tell that equipping these items grants these buffs, without looking at this post or the wiki.

Because if this is not somehow at least hinted towards in the game, then a player may not know about the damage scaling mechanic at all until they randomly defeat a boss with one of these items equipped and the duelists, and they notice that they killed them somewhat faster than usual. (Without a mod that shows damage values, of course)

All other minion-based characters have obvious indications that an item may somehow buff their minions. Do the duelists change appearance or grow in size when these items are equipped? Is there a particle effect, or maybe a quote from Maxwell, or something like that? Because if not, I think some indication should be added. ( as i stated, i did not have the chance to play the beta so I do not know if this already exists)

[Frashaw27]

I'll be honest, I don't really like the duelist changes. While I was apprehensive about the rework, I played with it a few days ago and found it quite fun and even if it was quite hectic, the Duelists were a great help in killing Toadstool. However, I liked it because it felt like even if they were doing passive damage, it was still important for me to help out when I can. This update, however, makes me feel very soured about the whole thing. The previous update, while lacking choices for what the Maxwell in question could use, felt engaging because it was actively encouraging me to play with his new kit of being immune to dark sword and night armor sanity drains, now it feels much less engaging because I'm not rewarded for being in the fight, I'm not rewarded for engaging with his perks (atleast compared to equipment that acts the exact same for everyone else), and it feels much less engaging because instead of having to way the choice between more dps and babying Maxwell's low hp. Now, I just have to stand on the sidelines with the 3 same equipment, occasionally refueling said equipment and summoning new puppets. This honestly feels like too much of a step back from before. It was perfect, all it needed is some verity, that would provide the same bonuses as the last version's equipment so that actual choice is possible instead of the illusion of choice that currently exists, in the equipment the gave the puppet's their attack bonuses. Was it really necessary to make it so that the old equipment is now deliberately worse at doing their previous job instead of just making all the options the same effectiveness to promote variety instead of squandering it?

[King Maxwell]

Hello klei, each update the duelists move further away from the original idea of a cheap, versatile, useful troop, however each individual duelist is not very powerful , the updates seem to be increasingly dividing the community, I believe I could go back to the original idea for testing purposes because we left duelists less than ideal needing some polish for very powerful duelists with a different proposal from the initial from one patch to the next without having had a patch in between, remembering that in the beginning the complaint was about the kiting IA.
I don't know how the reception of an initial approach will be now as we've already had the duelists overloaded and by comparison nothing balanced will look strong but hey it doesn't hurt to try. ^^

In my view this part of the updates was a big problem and is what makes it difficult to balance them these days:

• Damage taken per hit is now capped, improving survivability

But everything I said only works with a faster spellcasting animation or the ability to cancel the animation.

A post I made recently on the subject:

You don't have to follow my ideas, but think back to the origins and initial ideas about the rework, they were on a good path, now everything is complex and less fun.

Edited November 8, 2022 by King Maxwell

[Arthas Durotan]

1 minute ago, Aquaticbutter7 said:

Sorry, but the damage values was not what I was intending to ask in my original post. I was asking if anyone (including a brand new player) would be able to tell that equipping these items grants these buffs, without looking at this post or the wiki.

Because if this is not somehow at least hinted towards in the game, then a player may not know about the damage scaling mechanic at all until they randomly defeat a boss with one of these items equipped and the duelists, and they notice that they killed them somewhat faster than usual. (Without a mod that shows damage values, of course)

All other minion-based characters have obvious indications that an item may somehow buff their minions. Do the duelists change appearance or grow in size when these items are equipped? Is there a particle effect, or maybe a quote from Maxwell, or something like that? Because if not, I think some indication should be added. ( as i stated, i did not have the chance to play the beta so I do not know if this already exists)

Not at all no lol

But I am sure it will be taken care of before rework goes live... Unless it's forgotten...

Or you know "secret mechanic"

[Kappachinos296]

I feel like they are focusing way too hard on the duelists and now it just seems like the character’s identity is centered around them with all this complexity with the magician gear. All we really needed was a buff to their survivability instead of a ton of temporary spammable duelists. They could of focused instead on adding more spells or something for Maxwell that would fit his lore or some new forms of gimmick that would suit him like the magicians hat.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Kappachinos296