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I feel like the devs are getting confused now from all the feedback. I think the duelists were already good the previous update, but some people on this forum suggested to make Maxwell a ranged fighter and suggested to give other shadow equipment synergies with him, and now they listened to those feedback and now people are also enraged XD. I see a lot of conflicting suggestions here in the forums.

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I think Shadow Thurible could reduce cast time by 40% or 50%, maybe Magician's Top Hat should reduce it by 15% or 20%.
Shadow Thurible should increase duelists damage by 10 or 12 instead of 16 in compensation.

Bone Helm increase damage to 16 or 18 instead of 12. (maybe Bone Helm could reduce cast time by 5% or 10%).
This would allow you to choose between a Maxwell warrior or mage.

  • Mage Mode = Shadow Thurible + Bone Armor + Magician's Top Hat. You would have less risk of life (since you wouldn't be too close to the creature), you would cast faster (having less chance of being attacked while using the book), but in return the duelists would deal less damage and because you are further from the target they would attack slower.
  • Warrior Mode = Dark Sword + Bone Armor + Bone Helm. You would be more likely to get hit, but duelists would have more damage, and because you were closer, their attack speed would be higher.

So whoever wants to do more damage would choose warrior mode. And whoever wanted to be safer and using more spells would choose mage mode.
NOTE: I am using a translator.

Edited by Xtreme_D1
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Summary of how Duelists have changed over the updates:

529540: Broken AI
529754: Unremarkable (opinion)
529972: Changes from general mobbing to boss-killer, but it can AFK bosses easily
529998: Risk/Reward DPS boost on par with Wanda/Wolfgang
530195: Either risk/reward DPS or AFK boss-killer, but weaker versions of both

EDIT: After playing around with it, this update is pretty sweet. You can make a habit of going insane mid-combat because the extended damage falloff range + shadow prison allows you to disengage and deal with nightmare creatures while duelists fight the enemy. It's not super intuitive but it's good fun! :wilson_goodjob:

Edited by Arcwell
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I wrote this before but posting here again incase it was missed:
Shadow duelists should be able to attack sanity monsters due to both being shadows.
It would make sense if servants dig unwanted weeds at garden because that sounds like something servants would do :-D
Please add some kind of button to stop servants from mining small marble tree or chopping small tree in clustered farms.

I think duelists from the previous beta update were better.

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My suggestion

1. Maxwell will say something each time he summon Duelist, based on how strong the Duelist damage is, example :

20 dmg (no shadow equipment) = I need to find more shadowy arsenal to empower my minion.

 

24-32 dmg = My minion clings tighter upon this world, but barely.

 

36-44 dmg = The shadows may be our enemy, but I had carved Them into my weapons- with proper caution, of course.

 

48-56 dmg = From darkness, light pours into our morrow.

 

60 dmg (max) = I have slaved the shadows unto my will!

 

So new players / people that didnt check forum will know/ get the hint that the Duelist can be stronger.

 

2. Add damage bonus multiplier if Maxwell attack the same enemy as his Duelist (like Wendy & Abigail combo). So there is incentive if player dare to risk into melee combat. Instead of fully equipping tier 3&4 then standing prettily somewhere near the rainbow.. XD

 

3. For the Duelist defense and attack mechanic, it is on a good path, I really like the Lunge / charge attack, it adds up aggresive behavior of the hostile shadows.

 

In my opinion, Maxwell is like a jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one. He can be resource gatherer in early game so other players can roam the map, in mid to late game he can deal high damage in boss fight. Plus he can trap or scare enemies as well, that is a sweet jelly beans for me!

Well done Devs! 

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Not really sure about the balance, but being a puppet master and engaging in close proximity to have more damage with the shadows sounds kinda weird. I just want to step aside, drink tea and observe IMHO.
I'm not the one to guide someone, but as far as i think - Maxwell could be unique class without a real need to perform some similar actions to other characters, like engaging. He was chosen quite rarely anyway, mostly by the ones who wanted to use puppets, so why not to make him that different?

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2 minutes ago, Jorsef said:

This version is good, keep going. Basically solved the problems of the previous version(SAN/DMG Decay/Hate).

People are too over-reactive, Maxwell needs to be great again, It's been almost ten years.

sad part that is most o people that liked this update were the ones that wanted maxwell nerfed....

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1 hour ago, BB Marioni said:

I feel like the devs are getting confused now from all the feedback. I think the duelists were already good the previous update, but some people on this forum suggested to make Maxwell a ranged fighter and suggested to give other shadow equipment synergies with him, and now they listened to those feedback and now people are also enraged XD. I see a lot of conflicting suggestions here in the forums.

Many people don't want to see maxwell destroy their characters, and in my opinion other characters need to be updated as well.

Klei knows that maxwell is the king of shadows.

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It seems Klei is not reading the other feedbacks, only from people who want to nerf everything.

Congratulations to people who don't and won't play Maxwell for helping to destroy the character with every patch...

We have a character that is now locked on equipment to get decent damage, that needs to use all his sanity and has little HP and is "forced" to engage in the fight.

At least then increase Maxwell's life from 75HP to 150HP

Nothing else makes sense, RIP Maxwell.

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Just now, YouKnowWho said:

You do know the duelists used to only have 40 damage, right?

and where tanks, 
and before that lasted forever
and before maxwell had 20 san/min 
and before that maxwell didnt even have codex umbra, i follow every step of the guy since his launch my bro, and for sure i know he is in a worse spot than yesterday

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3 minutes ago, edulopes said:

sad part that is most o people that liked this update were the ones that wanted maxwell nerfed....

Many people do not like this update either, they feel maxwell has become the last version, they just want to nerf everything.

Fixing the problem is a good thing, at least there's less chaos.

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I just want to take my time to thank you, devs. I haven't tested new Maxwell yet but I already see people complaining all over again, and i just wanna point out that these last 2 patches are fantastic. They are very creative and I can see you guys are seriously trying to please Maxwell's enjoyers. Even if I dislike certain changes you did, I still greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into making this rework awesome. 

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1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

I just want to take my time to thank you, devs. I haven't tested new Maxwell yet but I already see people complaining all over again, and i just wanna point out that these last 2 patches are fantastic. They are very creative and I can see you guys are seriously trying to please Maxwell's enjoyers. Even if I dislike certain changes you did, I still greatly appreciate the time and effort you put into making this rework awesome. 

that is one part that everyone cant complain, uptades late at nigth in not normally work days, as i said klei is really trying their best, as always

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11 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

You do know the duelists used to only have 40 damage, right?

And you didn't have to stay close
And you could use any equipment
And the attack speed didn't change

You say a lot of things you don't know, How can you be like that?

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10 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

You do know the duelists used to only have 40 damage, right?

if they could at least tank equal to the first patch of them being able to tank bosses i would not say nothing, but now is just abnoxious using them, cast times are too long, their damage isnt worth the hassle of spawning them, at this point, just play wanda or wolfgang only as always, and wicker to mega farm, 

why people dont want them nerfed? if in ALL caracter refreshes them is am problem and an comparison for doing much damage?

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4 minutes ago, edulopes said:

if they could at least tank equal to the first patch of them being able to tank bosses i would not say nothing, but now is just abnoxious using them, cast times are too long, their damage isnt worth the hassle of spawning them, at this point, just play wanda or wolfgang only as always, and wicker to mega farm, 

why people dont want them nerfed? if in ALL caracter refreshes them is am problem and an comparison for doing much damage?

and i think maxwell being able to do damage enter the same realm than wanda, both are glasscannons but wanda is easier to use. so i think it would feel an equal game field, i am against nerfing caracters but reading some replies makes me think and say that would not be that what you all want ? nerf all caracters to be equal ?

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

And that a simple spider or pig was able to easily kill them?

well DS solo maxwell, is the closest to this one, and he was capable of killing them using his clones

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26 minutes ago, Jorsef said:

This version is good, keep going. Basically solved the problems of the previous version(SAN/DMG Decay/Hate).

People are too over-reactive, Maxwell needs to be great again, It's been almost ten years.

Agreed the update as of now is honestly great, i like the tier hierarchy to increase the damage of the minions and it also encourages maxwell to participate in the fight to maximize their potential but even without that they're disposable fighters you can easily replace with more nightmare fuel

1 hour ago, Thundario Watt said:

My suggestion

1. Maxwell will say something each time he summon Duelist, based on how strong the Duelist damage is, example :

20 dmg (no shadow equipment) = I need to find more shadowy arsenal to empower my minion.

 

24-32 dmg = My minion clings tighter upon this world, but barely.

 

36-44 dmg = The shadows may be our enemy, but I had carved Them into my weapons- with proper caution, of course.

 

48-56 dmg = From darkness, light pours into our morrow.

 

60 dmg (max) = I have slaved the shadows unto my will!

 

So new players / people that didnt check forum will know/ get the hint that the Duelist can be stronger.

 

2. Add damage bonus multiplier if Maxwell attack the same enemy as his Duelist (like Wendy & Abigail combo). So there is incentive if player dare to risk into melee combat. Instead of fully equipping tier 3&4 then standing prettily somewhere near the rainbow.. XD

 

3. For the Duelist defense and attack mechanic, it is on a good path, I really like the Lunge / charge attack, it adds up aggresive behavior of the hostile shadows.

 

In my opinion, Maxwell is like a jack of all trades, master of none, but oftentimes better than master of one. He can be resource gatherer in early game so other players can roam the map, in mid to late game he can deal high damage in boss fight. Plus he can trap or scare enemies as well, that is a sweet jelly beans for me!

Well done Devs! 

I also really like this idea and would further encourage fighting alongside his minions (although even as of now the extra dps is good enough imo that if it didn't change i wouldn't mind)

outside of this the update is great and i have good faith in future updates

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This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a co-op game, I have the impression that it is a lot of people who do not accept that other characters are good in comparison with others, it's like a competition, everyone should be happy with Maxwell, but no, many people want to nerf him, as if this game was an e-sport worth 1kk dol. wtf...

And they talk about balancing? ********, Abigail can solo 20+ lv3 spider nests, dozens and dozens, hundreds of mobs without even having to move or ''EnGaGe in the fight" but Maxwell can't do the same because he is "too OP" ha ha ha.

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because if we take every caracter Point and really think about it , and cheese the maximum potencial, almost every caracter, besides wilson willow, winona, wes, and walter,( maybie webber, never played him) everyone is OP in an way or another, i can point them all
Like wolfgang is the best tanker/damage of the game
Wanda is the most versatile caracter of the game
wicker is the Most strong caracter of the game
warly is the best buffer of the game
wurt is the best ( minion master of the game)
woodie is the best all around caracter that haves less downsides of the game
wigfrid is the best bard figther of the game( buffs team and herself)( and can figth alone)
wormwood is the best farmer of the game
Wx is the best caracter for that you can change at your will and deppending of situation
Maxwell WAS the best summoner of the game, being being able to uses his summons ( as fodder or as helpers at figths) and now his servants just have the gather, in rest are in worse spot that pre rework maxwell
 

 

1 minute ago, edulopes said:

because if we take every caracter Point and really think about it , and cheese the maximum potencial, almost every caracter, besides wilson willow, winona, wes, and walter,( maybie webber, never played him) everyone is OP in an way or another, i can point them all
Like wolfgang is the best tanker/damage of the game
Wanda is the most versatile caracter of the game
wicker is the Most strong caracter of the game
warly is the best buffer of the game
wurt is the best ( minion master of the game)
woodie is the best all around caracter that haves less downsides of the game
wigfrid is the best bard figther of the game( buffs team and herself)( and can figth alone)
wormwood is the best farmer of the game
Wx is the best caracter for that you can change at your will and deppending of situation
Maxwell WAS the best summoner of the game, being being able to uses his summons ( as fodder or as helpers at figths) and now his servants just have the gather, in rest are in worse spot that pre rework maxwell
 

his duellists arent worse than pre rework, but lord more than 10 years that they were useful, let them at least be good? not as good as wanda or wolf but at least close enough

8 minutes ago, mr.wilson.BR said:

Agreed the update as of now is honestly great, i like the tier hierarchy to increase the damage of the minions and it also encourages maxwell to participate in the fight to maximize their potential but even without that they're disposable fighters you can easily replace with more nightmare fuel

I also really like this idea and would further encourage fighting alongside his minions (although even as of now the extra dps is good enough imo that if it didn't change i wouldn't mind)

outside of this the update is great and i have good faith in future updates

I also really like this idea and would further encourage fighting alongside his minions (although even as of now the extra dps is good enough imo that if it didn't change i wouldn't mind)

the problem now is the best DPS is locked behind not figthing
MEANWILE WANDA , WOLF And wig hold F and goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

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Seeing this a lot so I feel it's worth mentioning:

Duelists are specialized for boss-killing, not mobbing. They might be worse than Abby against spiders but they're leagues better than the rest against the likes of Deerclops, Dragonfly, and Celestial Champion. If you compare duelists to other minions solely on their mobbing potential, they will seem worse.

 

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7 minutes ago, edulopes said:

because if we take every caracter Point and really think about it , and cheese the maximum potencial, almost every caracter, besides wilson willow, winona, wes, and walter,( maybie webber, never played him) everyone is OP in an way or another, i can point them all

image.thumb.png.fa8598975ed060a55beaa5065dd1f287.png

Winona's Catapult

1 trusty tape, 15 rocks, 3 twigs to build one.
damage = 42.5 (1.25 AoE radius) 

42.5*18 = 765

BALANCED !!! XD

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