Wickers refresh lacks creativity and is a waste of potential, and I am very disappointed.

[Cheggf]

22 minutes ago, _Ellat_ said:

Bearger is not always available and usually dies because he gets killed by treeguards maxwell shouldnt be able to open wickerbottoms bookcases.

Don't let bearger get killed by treeguards lol

[cybers2001]

The thing that gets me is how come Wanda gets bonuses as an old lady that Wickerbottom does not. Especially considering the justification of Wanda's old lady strength is knowledge of dark magic. I think Wickerbottom can at least share old Wanda's advantage with sanity loss reduction from casting spells. Hell, why not give her complete sanity-loss immunity from reading books or using staves? Let Maxwell and Wilson use the books, but lose sanity. As it stands now, players that are spamming books do so on the moon island or while wearing a bone helm to avoid the dangers, anyway.

Or here's another idea that I like even better. How about durability of staves are doubled when used by Wickerbottom? I would use her way more for deconstruction staves alone.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, cybers2001 said:

The thing that gets me is how come Wanda gets bonuses as an old lady that Wickerbottom does not. Especially considering the justification of Wanda's old lady strength is knowledge of dark magic. I think Wickerbottom can at least share old Wanda's advantage with sanity loss reduction from casting spells. Hell, why not give her complete sanity-loss immunity from reading books or using staves? Let Maxwell and Wilson use the books, but lose sanity.

As it stands now, players that are spamming books do so on the moon island or while wearing a bone helm to avoid the dangers, anyway.

Wickerbottoms magic isnt shadow in nature, she specifically talks badly about maxwells codex umbra, so she doesnt use shadow magic. Mentioning that though, she is using lunar magic now. Which could be interesting to explore. 

[Mike23Ua]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Ok, what point are YOU trying to make? That you could apply any character's perks too everyone with a bit of recontextualization? Sure, that's technically possible. But the difference is that you need to give everyone else entire systems for your argument too work, and probably change the entirety of the game's balance around it aswell.

Meanwhile, replace "Book" with "Staff" and you've just made Wicker's books usable by literally everyone. This is why they're saying that Wicker's books aren't a "core mechanic". The only unique interaction Wicker has with the books is the ability to craft and use them. Something that theoretically anyone could do with bare minimum recontextualization. Heck, if Wicker never existed, they wouldn't need any recontextualization at all. 

 

I only have but one question: How is Wickerbottoms books any different at all from Warlys cookware & special dishes or Wendy and Abigail’s Flower?

You take those things Away from Warly & Wendy and you have a character who is just as boring & bland as your all claiming Wickers Rework is with her books.

Yes.. Wickers books could all be separated into magic staffs anyone could use, but these books are to Wickerbottom, what Abigail’s flower is to Wendy..

The Sisturn- that thing you need to put flower petals in to speed up the bloom time on Abigail’s flower is nothing but the bookcase you store Wickers books into now.

You guys aren’t seeing it yet, but Wickers new rework isn’t as bland as a lot of people are making her out to be.

[_Ellat_]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Bearger is faster than Maxwell. Maxwell is great early game and for people who don't want to wrangle bearger but if you're doing unfun character swapping crap then wrangling bearger is nothing and so Maxwell offers nothing. 

Ok I was wrong(first time in my life) thats a good point.

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

I only have but one question: How is Wickerbottoms books any different at all from Warlys cookware & special dishes or Wendy and Abigail’s Flower?

You take those things Away from Warly & Wendy and you have a character who is just as boring & bland as your all claiming Wickers Rework is with her books.

Warly isn't just his cookware and special dishes. He's also his picky eater. All these combined give Warly a strong core, that being his love of food.

And while Wendy is mostly just Abigail, this doesn't justify this sort of design philosophy for everyone. If a soldier looses an arm in battle, would you dismember his whole squadron so they all had one arm? No. Because losing an arm sucks and is something you want to avoid.

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yes.. Wickers books could all be separated into magic staffs anyone could use, but these books are to Wickerbottom, what Abigail’s flower is to Wendy..

Just like with WX. If you gave everyone a free AOE follower, you'd need to make massive balance and system changes to account for it. Give everyone a tentacle staff and what changes? Bee Queen gets an AOE attack?

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

The Sisturn- that thing you need to put flower petals in to speed up the bloom time on Abigail’s flower is nothing but the bookcase you store Wickers books into now.

I... Honestly I'm not sure what the point of this part is?

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys aren’t seeing it yet, but Wickers new rework isn’t as bland as a lot of people are making her out to be.

Mmmm. No. It probably is. The only thing that got me excited about Wicker's new stuff is when I realized that the extinguishing book saves fires for later instead of just putting it out. 

[Copyafriend]

14 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

 

Bro wicker is one of only a couple characters whose main point is her character specific crafts. We have two minion characters, we can have winona and wicker be their character specific crafts be their main feature. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with it conceptually and it is quite a diverse toolkit in wickers case. (Winona could use some love tho lmao) 

i really dont get the “theres nothing special about them except their crafts so they’re a switch character” argument. (While you’re not explicitly sayiny that you are making a similar argument) 

the character is based on her crafts, she got more crafts and worsened her downsides. Sounds like a nice simple rework. Why does it need to be more?

[maxwell_winters]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

You take those things Away from Warly & Wendy and you have a character who is just as boring & bland as your all claiming Wickers Rework is with her books.

Not true. If you take away Warly's spices and special dishes, you will still have a challenge character that rewards the knowledge of various recipes instead of just spamming meatballs and pierogies. And the portable crockpot is a great item by itself. Stop Warly slander. 

[Mysterious box]

42 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

We have two minion characters

Good sir we have 7 minion characters atm.

[Copyafriend]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Good sir we have 7 minion characters atm.

I more meant webber and wurt but i hear what you’re saying

[Dextops]

8 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

various recipes instead of just spamming meatballs and pierogies. And the portable crockpot is a great item by itself. Stop Warly slander. 

Except he doesn’t cause you can cycle through like 2 dishes and still be completely fine as him

[Snugrugbug]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:22 PM, Scrimbles said:

The entirety of what makes Wicker fun is her ability to have overpowered spells. When you take that away, people seem to lose all interest. 

What a surprise, when you remove a character's perks, people lose interest

[Scrimbles]

57 minutes ago, Snugrugbug said:

What a surprise, when you remove a character's perks, people lose interest

Again, that's not my point.

My point is that there is nothing to Wicker other than random spells with no cohesion, a lot of the best characters have a set of perks that work together, and support each other, or they have some unique mechanic or resource to rely on.

Wicker still doesn't have anything like that.

[Snugrugbug]

24 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Again, that's not my point.

My point is that there is nothing to Wicker other than random spells with no cohesion, a lot of the best characters have a set of perks that work together, and support each other, or they have some unique mechanic or resource to rely on.

Wicker still doesn't have anything like that.

papyrus

[AveHortor]

On 7/14/2022 at 6:29 PM, Theukon-dos said:

The Wigfrid and Wickerbottom reworks are extremely similar in that they both chose to add ontop of what was already there, as opposed to changing the base.

 

The difference is that Wigfrid was an already solid character who was in no need of any major changes, while Wicker has always been little more than what was already on top.

Feels like this applies to Webber as well imo.

[Evelo]

12 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

You guys aren’t seeing it yet, but Wickers new rework isn’t as bland as a lot of people are making her out to be.

I'm not the only one! Huzzah!

[Kemthazul]

Maybe it's just my lack of expectations (and recent hiatus) speaking, but I'm absolutely fine with the rework. For me, what wicker lacks at the time is versatility, so adding more books was a big plus, and the bookcase that replenishes books is an even bigger plus for me, much welcome surprise (idk how it will be relevant in practice but eh).

I think my only nitpick with the rework is that, come on, lets be real guys, sleeping has been super irrelevant aside from christmas event, and I doubt even newbies have issues with acquiring fresh food. So what I would've wanted is a much more tangible downside. And this will be my controversial take: a downside that is almost as "bad" as Warly's picky eater. Oh, and also more books, lots more books please.

[Scrimbles]

10 hours ago, Snugrugbug said:

papyrus

Very detailed argument, however;



Maxwell, Webber, and ESPECIALLY Wigfrid all have unique crafts using papyrus.

[Copyafriend]

18 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Very detailed argument, however;



Maxwell, Webber, and ESPECIALLY Wigfrid all have unique crafts using papyrus.

Very interesting argument: counterargument: i like the new spells and am having fun

[Scrimbles]

9 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Very interesting argument: counterargument: i like the new spells and am having fun

Literally zero correlation to anything we were talking about.

[Copyafriend]

1 minute ago, Scrimbles said:

Literally zero correlation to anything we were talking about.

Yeah but im just like havin a good time maaaan. Dont take it all so serious its just a game

[_Ellat_]

13 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Yeah but im just like havin a good time maaaan. Dont take it all so serious its just a game

 

45 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

Very detailed argument, however;



Maxwell, Webber, and ESPECIALLY Wigfrid all have unique crafts using papyrus.

I'm still going to cry about the fact that only 5 songs are actually useful while wickerbottom gets real good spells which are easier to obtain and after this update will be infinite.

I just don't get it why do good characters get so much stuff while there are still characters that literally need a second rework?

[Copyafriend]

Just now, _Ellat_ said:

 

I'm still going to cry about the fact that only 5 songs are actually useful while wickerbottom gets real good spells which are easier to obtain and after this update will be infinite.

Reusable and infinite are related but distinctly different, they are reusable but it takes a long time to reuse them. 

[_Ellat_]

 

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

Reusable and infinite are related but distinctly different, they are reusable but it takes a long time to reuse them. 

You can make multiple bookshelfes for 20 of the same book. You won't need to craft them again.

[Mike23Ua]

11 hours ago, Kemthazul said:

Maybe it's just my lack of expectations (and recent hiatus) speaking, but I'm absolutely fine with the rework. For me, what wicker lacks at the time is versatility, so adding more books was a big plus, and the bookcase that replenishes books is an even bigger plus for me, much welcome surprise (idk how it will be relevant in practice but eh).

I think my only nitpick with the rework is that, come on, lets be real guys, sleeping has been super irrelevant aside from christmas event, and I doubt even newbies have issues with acquiring fresh food. So what I would've wanted is a much more tangible downside. And this will be my controversial take: a downside that is almost as "bad" as Warly's picky eater. Oh, and also more books, lots more books please.

I’m not sure if you’ve paid a lot of attention to literally every rework.. but most downsides are being phased almost (if not completely..) out of Existence.

If you want my personal opinion I can only see that as a GOOD thing because it makes every character easier to pick up, play and enjoy.. meanwhile- Klei can always add a harder mode which introduces heavier more serious downsides in a later update- They literally have a thing in the game called World Presets: without turning this thread into a long highly off topic post the TL:DR of what that means is that these are world Settings that the DEVELOPERS themselves pick & choose to determine how you will play the game…

Now rather or not anyone would play the game with those settings on is anyones guess.. but keep in mind when most the world wanted Klei to remove/change or Rework Wildfires.. Klei instead doubled down on keeping them in the game adding an option to toggle them to happen more frequently (for the crazy folks like me who enjoy the destructive challenge of Rebuild & Repair after Disasters strike) With that in mind not even WES got difficult downsides, Wes actually got cool stuff that makes playing him less boring.

Do I want to see an update add OPTIONAL harsh downsides and difficulties later? Absolutely.. but for now- make all the characters easy to pick up, play & enjoy.