Birdcage OP

[_Q_]

Wow, OP certainly has a chip on his shoulder. I suggest getting out more and enjoy things in life that are actually important other than your own personal little Rogue™ game.

I've learned to just shrug my shoulders at these 'OverPowered' threads. "I beat this by the skin of my teeth, so it's OP, I figured out this or that so it's OP". Please, grow up. If this kind of thing gets you so riled up, you've got a hard life ahead of you.

What???

dfdfdffdfdfddfd

[Palpetinus]

What???

dfdfdffdfdfddfd

You know you are too grumpy right now when your 10 characters addition is just gibberish, instead of some joke or other witty thingy.

[_Q_]

You know you are too grumpy right now when your 10 characters addition is just gibberish, instead of some joke or other witty thingy.

I just don't understand what he is trying to say. I don't have more time for this, next time will not post anything and just change it with some mods. Can't post exploit and balance issues for beta game, that's the way to go. I don't care anymore. Good luck and have fun, I'm out of here.

[n00biito]

So far I've never built a bird cage. I didn't think it was worth the cost of 6 gold nuggets and silk is hard for me to find. Silk almost never drops for me, no matter the world I play or settings I use. Maybe they could make the spiders drop more glands and silk instead of monster meat. Maybe let the hounds drop other stuff instead of monster meat as well?

It would be nice if people who complain about stuff in the game being overpowered to keep in mind that not everybody plays the game the way they. It's very annoying to come to the forums and see people assume all kind of stuff about people who play this game.

[Palpetinus]

I just don't understand what he is trying to say. I don't have more time for this, next time will not post anything and just change it with some mods. Can't post exploit and balance issues for beta game, that's the way to go. I don't care anymore. Good luck and have fun, I'm out of here.

The man is trying to say that you have to calm down.It's a game, an easily modable one, too. This is not the end of the world.

[Green]

Think: I sacrifice time, strategies and HP to win a simple monster meat. Ok, ~sometimes (hounds, i.e.)~ it comes kinda "free", but whatever. Then, I spend resources (resources that isn't cheap, at least for me in the game beggining) to make something that allows me to eat that thing without lose HP and die. Worth? OP? And most of the players doesn't know about that cage feature. I didn't know untill some weeks ago.Personally, I think that the bird rejecting the meat after some tryings is a good idea and the best solution for that discussion.

Also: the eggs are just a filler, the monster meat is actually considered meat, so you can use it for making meaty stew, kabobs, honey ham, etc... Things that you can't do with the eggs ! ( Ofcourse you have to put only 1, unless you want lasagne... MAMMA MIA ! )

[Palpetinus]

Also: the eggs are just a filler, the monster meat is actually considered meat, so you can use it for making meaty stew, kabobs, honey ham, etc... Things that you can't do with the eggs ! ( Ofcourse you have to put only 1, unless you want lasagne... MAMMA MIA ! )

Well, when i make a boomerang and slaughter bunnies it's easier and without any threat. And i can use 4 of them for a meaty stew. I would say MM is like sticks: a filler, but you can only use it once every recipe. If i really want to actively make meaty stew, i rather farm morsels.

[Nathuram]

Maybe monster meat should just give a rotten egg right away that then can't be cooked.Monster lasagne was introduced so people don't easily purify monster meat in the crock pot. An instant rotten egg would be on the same path.

[Dichotomy]

I will solve this great problem. With one, very easy way. Want to know what solve...?

JUST DON'T USE THIS CAGE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD IT, IT'S NOT THAT HARD IF YOU WANT A DIFFICULT GAME

To be fair I think that sort of comment works when it comes to cheats and such, but saying don't use a gameplay element as a resolution to someones thoughts on gameplay balance is a little shortsighted; given the game is in BETA and the DEVS most likely want to make the best balanced game they can. [MENTION=5551]_Q_[/MENTION] I have 0 experience with the bird cage so I cannot comment on its efficacy, but more generally, berating others for not understanding your point when you are playing on more difficult settings is a little harsh.Perhaps you should have mentioned that in the OP, assuming everyone knows your playstyle may be a little ambitious. I have silently agreed with quite a few of you posts in the past, but I cannot agree with dismissing others opinions, especially if they are considered ones. I do hope you see this as a friendly criticism and not a personal attack. Expecting scalable gameplay balance is an unfair expectation IMO. But once again I know little to nothing of the mechanic in question so perhaps your concerns translate well into the default game. IDK.I wouldn't get to riled up by negative comments, some of your critics had valid points, debateable sure, but considered none the less. As for the rest, well strong opinions often earn the strongest rebukes. Its to be expected, especially on the internet.Anyway all the best. Hope you continue to be part of the DS community. Edited April 2, 2013 by Dichotomy

[marmot]

I agree with Q : there should be some nerf on that birdcage.I strongly disagree with those who think we should just avoid it because :- game is in development, which means we're somehow asked to provide feedback- it's a piece of the gameplay and so it feels like you can cheat your way out in case of sudden difficulty (which is not good in a high-difficulty setting, especially for a survival game)

[_Q_]

Sorry, but all that low sarcasm comments without use of proper English language make me more angry than they should. People are commenting on things they are not interested in with low sarcasm and don't bring anything to the discussion. Other people don't see a problem with birdcage at all, that's strange thing to me. This is not the only exploit with birdcage, you can refresh your eggs anytime you want, there is no limit of monster meat you can feed to a bird, its not looking good. Refreshing eggs and food part is far from balanced, you can feed the bird with spoiled meat and get fresh eggs. With all food sources in game its hard to give player enough food to survive and explore and not to much to stack it and just sit in base.So birdcage nullifies spoilage of food, makes winter less problematic.Its not the only aspect of the game that needs tweaks here and there.While large amounts of food everywhere is good for new players, its not good for experienced players it simply makes game boring, the custom settings were introduced to provide more interesting game for everyone. Even if you put all standard food sources on low, you will always have access to monster meat, and you can turn it into eggs with birdcage without any limits so its really brakes the low resource game. Editing game files takes time, mod should focus on adding new stuff to the game not on fixing exploits. Fixing exploits is not my job.Here is a little mod for all exploits lovers:OP BirdcageBird in a cage now gives 3 meat and egg for 1 monster meat. That's is what I fell about current normal not edited birdcage, its that OP for me.

Edited April 2, 2013 by _Q_

[Nathuram]

So how about if monster meat and food that is stale and below gives a rotten egg instead then.

[Palpetinus]

So how about if monster meat and food that is stale and below gives a rotten egg instead then.

Poor bird.But yes, that would be one acceptable solution.

[Uszaty]

I am not going to play the Devil's Advocate, but please guys, don't deviate from the point that was originally made in the first post.

Birdcage is currently too strong. The ability to endlessly create good, edible food from Monster Meat or spoiled food is a pretty much gamebreaking mechanic. Even for a (quite) late game item. If an item is too good, it should be changed. This is why we have Monster Lasagne, Pig King doesn't accept Monster Meat, and eating it by Wilson has some serious drawbacks. Birdcage is a great way to turn all those killed Spiders, Hounds and Tentacles into perfectly nice food item, indefinitely. Which, until this Birdcage Egg-Converter change, was only situationally possible with 25% efficiency in a Crockpot.

It should be changed, no matter how often you or your brother or a random guy on the Internet uses it. There should be a limit to the amount of food a single Bird can process daily, or a drawback to feeding it a Monster Meat, or both.

[Akanin]

I go with the 1 egg per day limit. In real life, birds eat disgusting stuff but it usually does not affect egg quality.Correct me if I am wrong. I say that as someone who has breeded chickens in the past.

[Green]

Well, when i make a boomerang and slaughter bunnies it's easier and without any threat. And i can use 4 of them for a meaty stew. I would say MM is like sticks: a filler, but you can only use it once every recipe. If i really want to actively make meaty stew, i rather farm morsels.

Actually the boomerang is not that cheap and consumes fast, the MM is not like a stick, since a stick doesn't do anything alone, but the MM is considered actual meat with value = 1, while morsels are valued at 0.5, a meaty stew must contain at least 3 of "meatiness", if I am not wrong.

[cresoking]

_Q_ and his good threads...Yes, the birdcage needs a nerf. Not allowing the bird to eat MM (or spoiled MM), or limiting once a day would be great.

[kendogg]

It's not exactly hard to survive on vegetables either with massive farms, and making a lot of dragonpie, stuffed eggplant, ratatouille and fist full of jam. Just as easy as you can on meats with meaty stew, meatballs and eggs and bacon. Then of course there's the honey foods...honey ham, honey nuggets, pumpkin cookies and taffy. And don't forget the fish and frog food if you manage a stockpile of those. The point is that each of these food sources should be balanced for early, mid and late game. certain recipes are more mid/late game recipes but most of them are accessible from very early on if that is your focus for food collection. And most of these food sources scale pretty well from early to late but there a couple problematic ones. Birdcage needs some sort of limitation to force you to have more birdcages if you really want an expansive meat feeding operation. It's really just a problem with meat conversions...I think vegetables into seeds is perfectly balanced since there is a built in time and cost factor in creating farms and waiting for the harvest. For meats all you need to do is plop that stuff into a crock pot.I think Tallbirds are a bit too easy to kill as well still being able to be stunlocked and very easy to separate and kill one at a time since there are never that many in the world to begin with.

[Avelarius]

Sorry, but all that low sarcasm comments without use of proper English language make me more angry than they should.

People are commenting on things they are not interested in with low sarcasm and don't bring anything to the discussion.

Other people don't see a problem with birdcage at all, that's strange thing to me.

This is not the only exploit with birdcage, you can refresh your eggs anytime you want, there is no limit of monster meat you can feed to a bird, its not looking good.

Refreshing eggs and food part is far from balanced, you can feed the bird with spoiled meat and get fresh eggs.

With all food sources in game its hard to give player enough food to survive and explore and not to much to stack it and just sit in base.

So birdcage nullifies spoilage of food, makes winter less problematic.

Its not the only aspect of the game that needs tweaks here and there.

While large amounts of food everywhere is good for new players, its not good for experienced players it simply makes game boring, the custom settings were introduced to provide more interesting game for everyone. Even if you put all standard food sources on low, you will always have access to monster meat, and you can turn it into eggs with birdcage without any limits so its really brakes the low resource game.

Editing game files takes time, mod should focus on adding new stuff to the game not on fixing exploits.

Fixing exploits is not my job.

Here is a little mod for all exploits lovers:

OP Birdcage

Bird in a cage now gives 3 meat and egg for 1 monster meat.

That's is what I fell about current normal not edited birdcage, its that OP for me.

I marked some stuff in your reply I want to give my opinion.

First about the interest: I am interested in finding a solution that is both satisfactory for your masochist playing style and my sandbox projects. At first I did not see any problem because when I get the cage I usually have no problems left with hunger management. After you exposed the reasons it breaks the game for you I took some of my time to come with a solution that would be good for both of us and you ignored.

Food spoilage mechanics: In order to prevent bigger problems food spoilage was introduced with a bonus freshness that created the stack refreshing exploit yet to be addressed. It negates the whole spoilage thing already. Also crock pots, farms and living stock will keep spoilage under control if the bonus is removed. So I am ok with the egg having the exact same spoilage of the given meat, morsel, monster meat.

About the limits: It will break the game for me in a small extent if I am forced to have an array of cages in order to convert my monster meat surplus into gunpowder material all at once. I got used to an array of crock pots (eight is my current magic number) because this is not far from reality as a standard stove can cook 4 recipes at a time. I don't want more than one cage.

Solution: The best one in disregard of the coding involved is to make a second type of egg. Red with white spots is a common sign of danger in nature and I know of one mushroom that uses it. But maybe blue with red spots would be more fitting because the monster meat is blue. And red is also a sign of danger. You get it if you feed monster meat to the bird and it turns the recipes into monster lasagna if combined with monster meat, durian or another monster egg.

About negative feedback: Every time you ask for a change you should consider the impact it has on the whole player base, not only in your barren world. This way you may come with a proposition that is good for everyone, not just you.

Exploit lovers: Make it lay a honeyed ham or two and an egg =)

[NoNameNPC]

I think too, that the birdcage needs a nerf. The birdcage nullifies the danger from the monster meat completely and this seems wrong to me. I think monster meat was not meant to be eaten under normal circumstances. It shall be dangerous, it shall be hard to convert it into normal food, eating it shall only happen when the player runs out of food and is desperate. This was what I thought the first time I saw the monster meat. Maybe I am wrong, but for me it sounds cool and adds atmosphere, especially in a survival game. Crockpot is not that extreme, because you need 3 normal food items to nullify the bad aspects of one piece of monster meat.The birdcage even gives you fresh food, no matter how spoiled the meat was. Spoiled Monster meat --drying rack--> fresh monster jerky (which lasts very long), spoiled monster jerky --birdcage--> fresh egg , this way you can ignore the spoiling mechanic for a long time. Hope the developers think about it and fix it soon.Why is the bird alive after eating 20 monster meat in a row anyway?

[_Q_]

I marked some stuff in your reply I want to give my opinion.

First about the interest: I am interested in finding a solution that is both satisfactory for your masochist playing style and my sandbox projects. At first I did not see any problem because when I get the cage I usually have no problems left with hunger management. After you exposed the reasons it breaks the game for you I took some of my time to come with a solution that would be good for both of us and you ignored.

Food spoilage mechanics: In order to prevent bigger problems food spoilage was introduced with a bonus freshness that created the stack refreshing exploit yet to be addressed. It negates the whole spoilage thing already. Also crock pots, farms and living stock will keep spoilage under control if the bonus is removed. So I am ok with the egg having the exact same spoilage of the given meat, morsel, monster meat.

About the limits: It will break the game for me in a small extent if I am forced to have an array of cages in order to convert my monster meat surplus into gunpowder material all at once. I got used to an array of crock pots (eight is my current magic number) because this is not far from reality as a standard stove can cook 4 recipes at a time. I don't want more than one cage.

Solution: The best one in disregard of the coding involved is to make a second type of egg. Red with white spots is a common sign of danger in nature and I know of one mushroom that uses it. But maybe blue with red spots would be more fitting because the monster meat is blue. And red is also a sign of danger. You get it if you feed monster meat to the bird and it turns the recipes into monster lasagna if combined with monster meat, durian or another monster egg.

About negative feedback: Every time you ask for a change you should consider the impact it has on the whole player base, not only in your barren world. This way you may come with a proposition that is good for everyone, not just you.

Exploit lovers: Make it lay a honeyed ham or two and an egg =)

I read that post #6 .

Its not like I can decide the best solution its not my game in the end.

I will do what I like for myself.

There is few old problems with food that are left unfixed, and new updates adds new problems.

Like I said the whole food is hard to balance, you can put limits on number of beefalos that spawn in the world and from 1 beefalo if you don't kill it you will have more beefalos at day 50.

There is many sources of food, but some of them don't require much effort to get.

Its hard to give just enough food to player, at low resource settings you could just spend more time on fishing and getting monster meat and mushrooms to fill the crock pot. After some exploring and first winter I gathered enough of resources to end all food problems, cursed birdcage made monster meat a little to OP, without it I would have to fishing and stack some fillers for winter, with it I don't need to to that, so again its nerf to winter. In the end there is not much going on in the world or to the player, so once you set up food production (it takes more time on low resources) you have nothing interesting to do. Goals like clearing all spiders on the map are not fun anymore. I know that I can survive on very low resources so I will just stop playing, until new mechanics are added to make some late game.

[Avelarius]

I read that post #6 . Its not like I can decide the best solution its not my game in the end. I will do what I like for myself. There is few old problems with food that are left unfixed, and new updates adds new problems. Like I said the whole food is hard to balance, you can put limits on number of beefalos that spawn in the world and from 1 beefalo if you don't kill it you will have more beefalos at day 50. There is many sources of food, but some of them don't require much effort to get. Its hard to give just enough food to player, at low resource settings you could just spend more time on fishing and getting monster meat and mushrooms to fill the crock pot. After some exploring and first winter I gathered enough of resources to end all food problems, cursed birdcage made monster meat a little to OP, without it I would have to fishing and stack some fillers for winter, with it I don't need to to that, so again its nerf to winter. In the end there is not much going on in the world or to the player, so once you set up food production (it takes more time on low resources) you have nothing interesting to do. Goals like clearing all spiders on the map are not fun anymore. I know that I can survive on very low resources so I will just stop playing, until new mechanics are added to make some late game.

I got your point and hope the updates make your playing style more entertaining without disrupting mine.What I still don't understand is why you are not using the gateway. Would you mind explaining?

[_Q_]

I got your point and hope the updates make your playing style more entertaining without disrupting mine.What I still don't understand is why you are not using the gateway. Would you mind explaining?

I will try adventure mode when it gets finished, if I would be playing it like sandbox from update to update I would have nothing to play after release of the game. Traveling to next sandbox world, taking some items with me, was always bad idea, it only make game easier.

[JoeW]

The conversation does not need to be personal. If you have a comment about the original post, make it. But the conversation does not need to turn into personal attacks.

[Avelarius]

I will try adventure mode when it gets finished, if I would be playing it like sandbox from update to update I would have nothing to play after release of the game. Traveling to next sandbox world, taking some items with me, was always bad idea, it only make game easier.

I see. I too got my share of gateway challenge and my foothold play style make the updates get me in middle adventure. The last one rendered my foothold useless. So is sandbox for me until further notice.Thanks for sharing and good luck on your endeavors.