Forum's Opinion on the Wolfgang Refresh (haha I strike again!).

[Cloakingsumo198]

Actually how come the people coming into Wolfgang threads just to trash on the people in it aren't ever acknowledge by klei?

Yet, the people actually discussing with each other even if heated sometimes are constantly being warned and locked away.

I wanted to be good about this but even if thread dies and is locked, Wolfgang threads will still come back in the end..... He can't die until we the players are lost and gone.

if they really don't like what we are trying here then they might as well CENSOR US.

Lock this thread....  Ban us from trying to talk about Wolfgang, make the statement that everything is done...

I don't know what to do cause it feels like I'm being told I should plead and beg with my forumites or to the ones actively insulting us.....

Instead of just speaking my frustrations and confusion to all the ideas presented by us and Klei.

We're trying to stay here in this thread, but it's like everything is actively working against us and we're expected to stay stoic.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Yet, the people actually discussing with each other even if heated sometimes are constantly being warned and locked away.

 

That's how trolling works - you say something that incites a response, and baits aggression - but is its self defensible, like "just move on already, its not that bad" and "Tame a rider beef, you'll move so fast Wanda's instant, cross shard team teleports feel slow." 

I mean, you know this ;p 

[HowlVoid]

3 hours ago, JoeW said:

The simple fact of the matter is that it's a small portion of the community that is dissatisfied with the refresh as it stands right now. Not that this means we don't care. But it means it's something we have to consider. 

Thanks for the reply, I really truly appreciate it, however I still can't fathom how, based on what I've seen, the number of dissatisfied players can be considered small. I also frequent discord, YouTube,and Facebook and I have seen a good number of people who, while not unhappy, they're not completely sold on this refresh. 

As I've said before, Wolfgang 100% does still do what he's always done best, deal tons of damage. When one considers this, yeah he's not unplayable or something that drastic, most of us dissatisfied with the rework would just like a couple of qol fixes to make the whole experience more fluid. 

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If the team decides that something should be done about this, we will. This isn't a new thing, we have always done things this way. There is no way the work needed to get through the roadmap we set for ourselves could possibly get done otherwise. And if we fall short on the roadmap, we would have a whole different set of people annoyed at us. So those types of decisions do not come lightly. 

I understand that Joe, I'm sorry if I ever came across as selfish. 

But if the team could just quickly take a look at few number changes that they could squeeze into the next few qol patches we would be eternally grateful. I have a few qol changes I have gathered from community members across the forum:

1.  Please, Wolfgang's rowing isn't actually faster, only the initial velocity to reach max speed. (As pointed out by Hornete)

2.  Please, dumbbells could have an additional valid way to gain mighty that will help keep the player productive. Throwing them should be less taxing on the dumbbells and give Wolfgang more might. (As suggested by Toro)

3. Please, the mighty meter can be counter productive in how little it lasts for its invesent, perhaps the same mechanics that are found in Woodie's meter could be applied? Activities that require work could reduce the drain on the meter to incentivize the use and maintenance of the meter rather than staying always wimpy outside of battle. (As suggested by shosuko)

4. Please, allow the piggyback to have no penalties when used by normal Wolf as maintaining the meter and hunger bars at optimal values to use it are very taxing on the players time. (As suggested by me)

As you can tell these suggestions are not asking for Wolfgang to be completely re-reworked, we only want to add to the foundation that is already in place.

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I get that some of you are super frustrated. But, incase you missed my point in the last post - I am attempting to get you to give good, solid, non-inflammatory feedback. Because we can actually USE that. 

I figured that with all the bickering we caused during the beta we made a mess of usable feedback. 

I think I speak for everyone when I say that we are sorry. 

I hope that as a community we can do better in the future though of course it won't be easy. We have a lot of strong willed individuals who are very passionate about your game.

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I am going to be very direct here, since the last post wasn't clear enough. For now you should assume that we're watching the feedback and determining if it's something we want to change. If we get to a point where we know we won't be changing anything else about Wolfgang, I'll let you know. 

Until then, keep it constructive and on topic. Please. Thanks. 

Thank you so much Joe, we couldn't ask for better Devs; the community is in good hands. 

I hope my remarks werent misunderstood, I was only fighting for what I thought was right.

[Cloakingsumo198]

The only ones putting anything on the line are those hoping for change.  They can't get mad, emotional, loud or be in any way hostile even when presented with only hostility and indifference.

The amount of hypocrisy represented here when individuals think themselves above others because they aren't the ones upset is honestly sad.

It's strange how we regulated ourselves to this thread yet, people still find the need to enter just to flame those inside.  Yet WE are the ones causing problems and flooding the forums "needlessly".

We come off as "obnoxious" yet there is hardly any self awareness in these forumites lol.

Spoiler

This is entirely off topic sorry for getting another thread locked probably guys.

 

[EssZee]

assuming they do decide to tweak wolf again, I wonder if it'll happen after the other refreshes or if they'll lump it with a general QOL update

[HowlVoid]

Well it's either play by Klei's rules and act according to what they deem a good "forumer" or get ignored.

We have been acknowledge, please let's keep things constructive and do do our best to stay on topic and provide useable feedback.

Let's put on our best fake smiles and hope Wolfgang gets some changes.

Ps. Ignore the haters, hater gonna hate.

[JoeW]

To address some of the questions and comments above. 

I'm not going to tell you to stop with feedback - I'm just asking to end the bickering. I'm saying if you want to provide feedback, please do so constructively. I am not suggesting we need more. =)

Also, @HowlVoid - the forums represents maybe at best 2-5% of the total active players at any given time. Of those, the majority of the forums are not actively dissatisfied with Wolfgang. So, those that are dissatisfied are a smaller group. 

Anyway, that doesn't even matter. We still try to make sure we can meet our own goals as well as do our best to make our players happy with the result.

We've had a few meetings and have decided that we're definitely going to address some of your concerns. How we're going to address them and when is still being discussed. But - I wanted let you all know. 

Another thing that was discussed was that in the past, you might have seen us react to your feedback after a refresh a bit quicker than you did this time because we just got through winter break and we also had the Lunar New Year update that had to come out. In addition to that some people have been out sick and getting everybody together has been a bit rough since we got back from holiday. 

So - It's worth pointing out that there was definitely some disconnect in my response to you all, and that has probably contributed to the feeling that this refresh has been different and I'm sorry for that.  

We'll let you know more details when we have them. 

[Cheggf]

8 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We've had a few meetings and have decided that we're definitely going to address some of your concerns. How we're going to address them and when is still being discussed. But - I wanted let you all know. 

I'm hoping it addresses how you build and/or maintain mighty. Even if he doesn't get anything cool like his speed boost back I think his biggest issue is how boring and tedious it is to become mighty.

Lifting weights is funny and all but to just stare at him for so long and so often not doing anything is real bland.

[JoeW]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I'm hoping it addresses how you build and/or maintain mighty. Even if he doesn't get anything cool like his speed boost back I think his biggest issue is how boring and tedious it is to become mighty.

Lifting weights is funny and all but to just stare at him for so long and so often not doing anything is real bland.

It will - and it's unlikely he will get his speed boost back. These are two things that we know for certain without the design team really sitting down and crunching on what the changes are going to be specifically. 

[Yuuko]

20 minutes ago, JoeW said:

We've had a few meetings and have decided that we're definitely going to address some of your concerns. How we're going to address them and when is still being discussed. But - I wanted let you all know. 

[Dextops]

18 minutes ago, JoeW said:

it's unlikely he will get his speed boost back

i respect your decision but is there a broad answer you can give on why this is so? did you guys find it boring?

[Well-met]

Just now, Dextops said:

i respect your decision but is there a broad answer you can give on why this is so? did you guys find it boring?

because for the nth time it was unintended

[HowlVoid]

@JoeW I'm very glad to hear that, that's all we've wanted all along, especially how much time Wolfgang has to be still in one spot.

As for the other comment, as I mentioned I am in a lot of big communities on multiple platforms, not just the forums, and its not that people were dissatisfied, but rather felt it wasn't a complete refresh. 

You may or may not be aware, but as a company you may receive a lot of one sided admiration on official posts, no matter what you decide to do.

 

[Dextops]

Just now, Well-met said:

because for the nth time it was unintended

i really don't believe that when there is little to no evidence and it was a character who's been around for more than 5 years and has been ported to dst without any of the devs changing it at all

[Well-met]

Just now, Dextops said:

i really don't believe that when there is little to no evidence and it was a character who's been around for more than 5 years and has been ported to dst without any of the devs changing it at all

the evidence only becomes obvious when you learn dst modding and the proceedings of the lua scripts

as for the delay, I understand many people assume game developers are gods at their own game and know every inch of it by heart but it is very rarely the case. This is even more problematic when a significant amount of employees each contribute their own workload to a project and others don't necessarily know all the bits of eachother's work.

[Dr. Safety]

26 minutes ago, JoeW said:

It will - and it's unlikely he will get his speed boost back. These are two things that we know for certain without the design team really sitting down and crunching on what the changes are going to be specifically. 

Well that answers my concerns. No more complaints on my end. Thank you for the clarity.

[Cheggf]

26 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I love the Klei friendly version of that you've got.

Spitball idea: Wolfgang can walk with his dumbbells, maybe move each of the dumbbells up a tier so gold is tied with thulecite and stone doesn't suck, give thulecite a new ability where walking while pumping gives walking cane speed. Wouldn't make him "faster" than anyone else, would give the thulecite dumbbell a neat little shadow magic perk, would let him lift on the go without slowing down compared to a cane but at a greater cost, and while it would be a far far weaker form of speed than his old speed and many sacrifices would be made compared to it it would still allow an experienced player capable of rushing magic to get a bit of speed since he can get something like a cane early.

The speed wouldn't help in combat and after day 20 wouldn't make him any faster than anyone else and would just be for lifting on the go, I think it's a nice compromise. Keep in mind all the time lost from rushing magic and gathering the materials to make it, too. And how Wormwood gets a permanent speed bonus for free that actually stacks.

It also doesn't go against the sacred texts of "if anything he should be slower when mighty" since it's shadow magic instead of might that boosts him.

[Dextops]

9 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the evidence only becomes obvious when you learn dst modding and the proceedings of the lua scripts

as for the delay, I understand many people assume game developers are gods at their own game and know every inch of it by heart but it is very rarely the case. This is even more problematic when a significant amount of employees each contribute their own workload to a project and others don't necessarily know all the bits of eachother's work.

But even then it was widely documented I really can’t believe it and if klei liked it and decided to keep it then it means it then became intended

i can’t not believe klei had no idea wolfgangs speed existed especially when zark is a Wolfgang main

Anyway for a broad suggestion I’d like more of a reason to stay mighty constantly and later into the game

[Cloakingsumo198]

53 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Giving hope and inflating dreams. 

Spoiler

AYOOOOOOOO THE WOLFGANG TRAIN JUST GOT FUEL FOR THE FIRE!!!!! LETS GOOOOOOOOOOO

[Yuuko]

Alright so I did this - and I think others should join.  That way we don't have to worry about bumping here, and Wolfgang spam can die without our ideas fading with it. lmkwyt

 

[Mike23Ua]

6 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Alright so I did this - and I think others should join.  That way we don't have to worry about bumping here, and Wolfgang spam can die without our ideas fading with it. lmkwyt

 

I think this one thread that has over 13,000 views is fine. But I am beyond thrilled that they actually plan to make changes to this rework, I’m hoping this means some exciting and unique stuff to do while Mighty beyond just punching things.

More stuff like lifting sails and anchors with great ease because of sheer muscle mass, that sort of stuff.

I’d like the Wolfgang in Gameplay to more accurately portray the ones we see in Vignettes that’s all I could really ask for, being able to carry things in front of him in both arms while not having to give up his backpack slot for example: Would make Wolfgang’s ability to carry things more Unique to Wolfgang.

would also be fun to see him be able to put one statue on his Beefalo while holding another above his head to be the only character in the game capable of carrying 2 Statues on a Beefalo.

because people are saying things like “Carrying stuff faster isn’t a good perk, just get a Beefalo blah blah blah…” 

Wolfgang is MIGHTY let us feel Mighty beyond just dealing 2x damage.

[Yuuko]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think this one thread that has over 13,000 views is fine. But I am beyond thrilled that they actually plan to make changes to this rework, I’m hoping this means some exciting and unique stuff to do while Mighty beyond just punching things.

More stuff like lifting sails and anchors with great ease because of sheer muscle mass, that sort of stuff.

I’d like the Wolfgang in Gameplay to more accurately portray the ones we see in Vignettes that’s all I could really ask for, being able to carry things in front of him in both arms while not having to give up his backpack slot for example: Would make Wolfgang’s ability to carry things more Unique to Wolfgang.

would also be fun to see him be able to put one statue on his Beefalo while holding another above his head to be the only character in the game capable of carrying 2 Statues on a Beefalo.

because people are saying things like “Carrying stuff faster isn’t a good perk, just get a Beefalo blah blah blah…” 

Wolfgang is MIGHTY let us feel Mighty beyond just dealing 2x damage.

13,000 views and 300+ posts... not all of them constructive, or feedback / suggestions lol.  I'd be most interested to see your entire vision laid out there.

[Lex the Grim]

1 hour ago, JoeW said:

To address some of the questions and comments above. 

I'm not going to tell you to stop with feedback - I'm just asking to end the bickering. I'm saying if you want to provide feedback, please do so constructively. I am not suggesting we need more. =)

Also, @HowlVoid - the forums represents maybe at best 2-5% of the total active players at any given time. Of those, the majority of the forums are not actively dissatisfied with Wolfgang. So, those that are dissatisfied are a smaller group. 

Anyway, that doesn't even matter. We still try to make sure we can meet our own goals as well as do our best to make our players happy with the result.

We've had a few meetings and have decided that we're definitely going to address some of your concerns. How we're going to address them and when is still being discussed. But - I wanted let you all know. 

Another thing that was discussed was that in the past, you might have seen us react to your feedback after a refresh a bit quicker than you did this time because we just got through winter break and we also had the Lunar New Year update that had to come out. In addition to that some people have been out sick and getting everybody together has been a bit rough since we got back from holiday. 

So - It's worth pointing out that there was definitely some disconnect in my response to you all, and that has probably contributed to the feeling that this refresh has been different and I'm sorry for that.  

We'll let you know more details when we have them. 

Cheers @JoeW this is exactly what I was looking for myself. My complaint was the lack of response to over a month of, from my point of view, constructive feedback from numerous non-toxic contributors, including myself. Feedback from some people within the community was repetitive, spammy, and emotional, but I thought there were some real good nuggets of feedback, and as a whole we'd honed in on what wasn't feeling good about Wolfgang's refresh.

I realise and accept Klei prefers not to do a back and forth with individuals about these kinds of things, but it was the lack of any more general communication in patch notes or other official correspondence that was frustrating. Until this post of yours, it's been feeling like we've really been hung out to dry.

Thanks for letting us know our concerns have been heard, found valid, will be addressed and that communication, or at least Klei's responsiveness, will be more active in the future.

Tis good news.

[Yuuko]

57 minutes ago, Well-met said:

because for the nth time it was unintended

combos were unintended in Street Fighter - while originally a glitch they are now a prominent feature of most fighting games.

Just because his speed boost was a bug does not mean it should be removed - only that it should be worked out of bug territory.

Although - I don't disagree with removing the speed buff if other factors are adjusted.  Wolfgang had a lot of power, but considering other refreshes and character re-works, and taking away his speed, he falls significantly and some minor work improvements like hoisting a sail quicker aren't going to make up for that.

[Auth]

1 hour ago, JoeW said:

Hello, I'm JoeW, and after 9 years in development, hopefully Wolfgang will have been worth the wait.

This is a MUCH better response, and one that I had hoped we'd receive at some point. Thank you. While I'm not part of the whole wolfgang train too strongly either way, I'm glad to see not only an acknowledgement that the last response felt a bit disconnected, but that there's an actual response taking the community's thoughts into mind. That was very nice.

Let's hope the revisit irons out the issues of the refresh.

Cheers!