Wolfgang Refresh - Feedback and Questions for Klei

[Josina]

Dear Klei,

I’ve played every single one of your games for over a decade, and I play them every single day - they undo the stress of even the worst day at work, and I genuinely can’t imagine my life without them. Thank you for all the years of joy! 

I normally don’t interact with the forum aside from reporting the occasional bug, but like so many other players who love playing Wolfgang, I have for the first time in a decade taken the time to write a thoughtful and respectful post providing my feedback on the refresh. I kept it limited to 1 post, because I understand just how much work it must be for you to read the huge amount of feedback that’s currently coming your way, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t care very deeply about this refresh, because I really really do. I’ve read every single thread and post on the subject since the announcement, and I worry that you won’t hear the voices of players like me, because we have not been very present or vocal in the forum, and our current attempts to reach you with our feedback feel drowned out by a very few forum members who are each submitting 40-60 posts a day on the subject. A lot of these posts are sadly filled with mockery, delight at our sadness, negative judgments of the kind of players we collectively are simply because we like playing Wolfgang, and incitements not to listen to us.
After I played the beta and submitted my feedback on the refresh (which i will link to again at the end) people I have never spoken to have contacted me outside of the forum (unfortunately my name is just “Josina” across all my applications and accounts), to tell me I deserve to have my favorite character ‘ruined’, ‘gutted’, ‘nerfed’ and ‘destroyed’ because we Wolfgang players are arrogant, deserve to be pegged down a notch, and other messages of a similar kind. Not one of them knows me, and many of them admit they don’t play nor care about Wolfgang, but that they’ll be happy with any change, as long as it makes him worse to play and makes us unhappy.

This doesn’t make me feel more inclined to participate in the forum going forward. But given how much I have vested in Wolfgang, I would like to send you a 2nd message regarding the refresh, and I hope that you get to read it.

Rather than debate the numbers and percentages of dumbbell durability, speed boosts, or time to mightiness, I want to explain what made the old Wolfgang so incredibly fun, and why I have a hard time enjoying the refreshed one, even after 18 hours of playtesting him and really trying to like him. And reading the posts of other players who have spent thousands of hours playing him and who love him as much as me, I believe many will relate to this.

To me DST feels best when I have a goal. I like feeling challenged, under pressure, I enjoy optimization (in combat, but really in all aspects of the game), and I like trying new things. I love finding smarter, better, faster or more elegant ways to kill bosses, and playing through the entire celestial arc in an ever shorter amount of time. And Wolfgang is the perfect match for this kind of action packed combat oriented playstyle in DST. The only other character with whom I feel I get to constantly challenge my skills even after 9 years, and play a game that is as guaranteed action and adrenaline packed is Wanda. But playing Wolfgang simply is the most fun I can have in DST, because I’m never idle, am always running towards something, and even if others in the server don’t feel like killing bosses or progressing the story, I can still do this swiftly on my own, and bring mid and late game resources to other players. 

But it’s not just a brute force damage multiplier that makes combat with him such a delight, the whole package of Wolfgang enables fighting strategies that are completely unique to him, and yes - his speed is a big component of that. But this doesn’t make him overpowered or easier, I challenge anyone who thinks kiting the Dragonfly while she’s enraged is easy to go ahead and try it, and they will find that it requires an enormous amount of skill. If I liked just pressing F to fight I am better off playing Wigfrid, but I enjoy agility and feats in combat, and I don’t see how it is wrong of me to enjoy that. I also really don’t find anything about Wolfgang’s linear values and hunger-driven mightiness to be boring - quite the opposite, because they add to the thrill, because I have to very actively monitor them, and in a precarious situations the timing of precise hunger values and even the eating animation speed of different food items can be critical, because poor timing can literally kill me. Nothing boring or overpowered about that.

For players who are more interested in the resource gathering and building aspects of the game, or perhaps farming and food prep, or to just have a relaxing game on a given day - there are already so many characters to choose from for that playstyle. But there are really only 3 combat-focused characters (Wigfrid, Wolfgang, and Wanda - even though combat is not even the primary mechanic Wanda is designed around), and with Wolfgang being turned into a character appealing to a very different gameplay than I am interested in (because so much of it now requires inactivity, and because his strategies are now basically just the same as other survivors) I am now really just left with just 2. For all the talk of how op Wolfgang supposedly is, I don’t enjoy fighting with Wigfrid much, because ironically in my mind playing her is guilty of all the things Wolfgang players are accused of - smashing mindlessly holding F, not even needing healing. But in her refresh you didn’t nerf any of that, you just gave her even more buffs, so I don’t understand why Wolfgang is being nerfed to such a degree. Balance and lore have never been more important than gameplay and fun in any of your previous updates, although arguments like “it doesn’t make sense for a strongman to run faster” don’t seem very meaningful if it makes sense for a stage actress to have lifesteal, or an old lady summoning tentacles out of the floor.

Klei, If you tell me you’d like to take the game into a direction where all characters are more accessible and appealing to people who enjoy a more relaxed playstyle, or perhaps those just picking up the game - I will accept that. It would surprise me given how all the newer characters have been designed around ever more different mechanics and gameplay, but of course I will accept it. I will stop playing him like the rest of the player base that enjoys Wolfgang in the same way as me, and either migrate over to Wanda, or just be sad and go play other games.

I know there is a very vocal part of the community saying that with some tweaks this rework will be fine, and Wolfgang needed a nerf, but I want you to understand how fundamentally opposite the new Wolfgang’s gameplay is to the old one. Mini games generally feel like a distraction that take me out of active gameplay, and the gym game of clicking on one spot just starts feeling like watching a metronome, it’s just not interesting. The use of the dumbbells requires me to completely stop playing altogether, and watch my character do something while I have absolutely nothing to engage with. Since I don’t like being idle I would probably do something else on my phone until he finishes, and that’s not how a survival game is supposed to feel. Changing any numbers around this fundamental change in mechanics and gameplay can’t resolve this conflict for me. Another problem with using exercise to increase mightiness and not being able to control in the same way how long I stay mighty for, forces me to eventually break the flow of a group server. Imagine doing a series a moonstorms in a group of 3 or 4 players, and at some point (because multiple moonstorms take long) - as the supposedly strong fighter of the group - having to say “sorry guys I have to sit this one out, I gotta go exercise” or “guys can you all stop for [x number of time] so I can get mighty and come with?”. It is honestly humiliating for the character. And it makes me so sad to feel like some people actually seem happy about that.

Please look at how many people who have never been active on the forum have taken time and energy to write well thought-through feedback, and please accept our way of enjoying the game as just as valid, we’re feeling pretty left out in the cold.

Thank you for everything. <3

-Josina

Link to my original post

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Josina said:

 

Thank you so much for your feedback.

Sometimes the only reason for wanting something back is because it was fun, nothing more and nothing less. You have to come up with a meaningless garbled mess of words just to justify why you're having fun and it's sad. Then it should be up to Klei on how to go about the balance. 

I see hypocritical Wigfrid mains who were unhappy with her refresh but taking the time to beat down Wolfgang with the only reasoning being "haha, easy mode gone". 

People mocking and cheering that the character has become "crippled" and turning around to say "The mechanic makes him better than ever! He doesn't need speed!". They just echo whatever the most influential person is saying without any unique input of their own. 

Can't even begin to count the number of time it's been repeated that the piggyback perk is unique when it isn't. 

I hope I don't lose friendships over calling people out for the hypocrisy by I can't just sit idly by while this is all happening. People want to be on the most "popular" side of a debate until it's their time to feel the heat of the torch. 

[Mike23Ua]

22 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Can't even begin to count the number of time it's been repeated that the piggyback perk is unique when it isn't. 

I hope I don't lose friendships over calling people out for the hypocrisy by I can't just sit idly by while this is all happening. People want to be on the most "popular" side of a debate until it's their time to feel the heat of the torch. 

First part: Your right it’s not unique, neither is carrying heavy stuff faster since his speed was actually Nerfed, HOWEVER (& yes I absolutely love to think outside the box and add new equations to the mix) IF those who proclaim “Bruh it’s not new he’s actually LESS speedy at carrying them now then he was before” was able to wear BOTH A PiggyBack pack AND carry a Heavy Item effortlessly as seems he should be able to do HERE: 

Then yes… it is entirely NEW because now he can just carry around something heavy as a “feat of extreme might” and never ever EVER lose Mighty form while at the same time: Still wearing his Backpack capable of Carrying more stuff then your average survivor ever dreamed of Forgo: Removal of Speed Buff now rightfully Justified.

Next: If you lose friends over your stance on a silly game or what it does- F those friends.. you don’t need them, and they were never truly your friends to begin with..

In real life I have a small friends circle of very few people I actually trust… because Humans- Most of them only see a use in you until your usefulness to them runs out.

I know this forum isn’t a place for a therapy session but: Im just saying if you lose friends, you will make better ones.

[Gashzer]

25 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

 "The mechanic makes him better than ever! He doesn't need speed!"

I mean its true, new wolfgang feels so polished now.

No annoying hunger drain which was fine to deal with in combat when you are using healing food anyway but really tedious outside of combat. Thats fixed. Bye bye being forced to make 6 crockpots.

A fun wee mini game that doesn't require much effort.

The glorious gembell making staying mighty so easy and it lasts like 11days or something if you use it to stay mighty 24/7, i can actually take my time clearing ruins without rushing into the next fight before my hunger an food runs out.

A 20% boost was so small anyway that a mag or walking cane covers it fine.

 

[HowlVoid]

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

I mean its true, new wolfgang feels so polished now.

No annoying hunger drain which was fine to deal with in combat when you are using healing food anyway but really tedious outside of combat. Thats fixed. Bye bye being forced to make 6 crockpots.

A fun wee mini game that doesn't require much effort.

The glorious gembell making staying mighty so easy and it lasts like 11days or something if you use it to stay mighty 24/7, i can actually take my time clearing ruins without rushing into the next fight before my hunger an food runs out.

A 20% boost was so small anyway that a mag or walking cane covers it fine.

 

That's not the point I was making, people are saying the rework is crippling Wolfgang and saying that it is balanced in the same breath. 

They only repeat what will give them the highest "social credit".

5 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

 20% boost was so small anyway that a mag or walking cane covers it fine.

 

Not sure what to say if you don't understand why 20% innate speed boost increase is significant.

[Gashzer]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

That's not the point I was making, people are saying the rework is crippling Wolfgang and saying that it is balanced in the same breath. 

Only people saying the rework is crippling are the people sad to see the speed boost go, not the ones saying its a balanced an fair rework like me. Wolfgang was good before rework and is still good after for its quality of life improvements.

[BezKa]

1 hour ago, Josina said:

After I played the beta and submitted my feedback on the refresh (which i will link to again at the end) people I have never spoken to have contacted me outside of the forum (unfortunately my name is just “Josina” across all my applications and accounts), to tell me I deserve to have my favorite character ‘ruined’, ‘gutted’, ‘nerfed’ and ‘destroyed’

I just want to say I'm incredibly sorry you had to experience that. People love to forget that everyone behind a nickname and profile picture is actually a living person and unleash their worst on the internet. 

I thought the forum community was better than this, it's sad to see that's not the case. To specifically exit the forums just to harass someone without moderators to keep them in check, I didn't even think someone would consider doing something like that. 

Again, I'm sorry you had to go through that over something as insignificant as a video game character. 

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Only people saying the rework is crippling are the people sad to see the speed boost go, not the ones saying its a balanced an fair rework like me. Wolfgang was good before rework and is still good after for its quality of life improvements.

Reread what the OP wrote, people are harassing Wolfgang players and mocking them. 

You're not looking hard enough, plenty of people just want to see Wolfgang burn.

[mr. brj]

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Only people saying the rework is crippling are the people sad to see the speed boost go, not the ones saying its a balanced an fair rework like me. Wolfgang was good before rework and is still good after for its quality of life improvements.

The new Wolfgang isn't bad, but the new Wolfgang is a character that almost completely replaced the old Wolfgang. They have huge differences gameplay-wise and stat-wise. And because Klei opened the beta to public and wanted us to give feedback, we are sharing our concerns. And we are saying that we don't want the old Wolfgang removed, and that the refresh should primarily stay loyal to Wolfgang's old self. It's as simple as that.

[Catteflyterpill]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Reread what the OP wrote, people are harassing Wolfgang players and mocking them. 

You're not looking hard enough, plenty of people just want to see Wolfgang burn.

It seems like they're just saying that the speed boost being gone is the main gripe people have with the rework. However unfortunate and gross, I don't think people harassing Wolfgang mains takes away from the critique or reception of the rework.

[Gashzer]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Reread what the OP wrote, people are harassing Wolfgang players and mocking them. 

You're not looking hard enough, plenty of people just want to see Wolfgang burn.

Well what you want klei or me to do about it? don't rework wolfgang?  I haven't seen anyone seriously mock or insult people on these forums (everyone is nice enough and passionate for dst which is pretty cool ngl) and beyond that, its out of klei's control. You got to learn to look after yourself on the internet lads, block harrassers, don't use the same name/account for everything. Suppose a cyber awareness post from klei is something they could do?

[HowlVoid]

3 minutes ago, Catteflyterpill said:

It seems like they're just saying that the speed boost being gone is the main gripe people have with the rework. However unfortunate and gross, I don't think people harassing Wolfgang mains takes away from the critique or reception of the rework.

Ah ok I see.

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

Well what you want klei or me to do about it? don't rework wolfgang?  I haven't seen anyone seriously mock or insult people on these forums (everyone is nice enough and passionate for dst which is pretty cool ngl) and beyond that, its out of klei's control. You got to learn to look after yourself on the internet lads, block harrassers, don't use the same name/account for everything. Suppose a cyber awareness post from klei is something they could do?

Well the new patch gives me new hope now that Wolfgang has some utility outside of battle. 

It is a compromise I have been adamantly fighting for. 

As for what you said, people forget that opinions are just that, opinions. Just because you enjoy the rework doesn't mean everyone else shares the same sentiment. I believe in Klei, if we just give it some time Wolfgang will be in a state that is mostly loved by everyone.

[Mangrove]

1 hour ago, Josina said:

After I played the beta and submitted my feedback on the refresh (which i will link to again at the end) people I have never spoken to have contacted me outside of the forum (unfortunately my name is just “Josina” across all my applications and accounts), to tell me I deserve to have my favorite character ‘ruined’, ‘gutted’, ‘nerfed’ and ‘destroyed’ because we Wolfgang players are arrogant, deserve to be pegged down a notch, and other messages of a similar kind.

This is so shocking to me, your posts have been so well put together I really appreciate the time and effort you've spent on your feedback

1 hour ago, Josina said:

I enjoy agility and feats in combat, and I don’t see how it is wrong of me to enjoy that. I also really don’t find anything about Wolfgang’s linear values and hunger-driven mightiness to be boring - quite the opposite, because they add to the thrill, because I have to very actively monitor them, and in a precarious situations the timing of precise hunger values and even the eating animation speed of different food items can be critical, because poor timing can literally kill me. Nothing boring or overpowered about that

This is also exactly what I love about Wolfgang <3

 

1 hour ago, Josina said:

I want you to understand how fundamentally opposite the new Wolfgang’s gameplay is to the old one

I completely agree, it really changes his moment-to-moment gameloop

 

1 hour ago, Josina said:

Please look at how many people who have never been active on the forum have taken time and energy to write well thought-through feedback, and please accept our way of enjoying the game as just as valid, we’re feeling pretty left out in the cold.

Just want to say I love you all <3

[Gashzer]

2 minutes ago, petterr44 said:

Cyber bullying is actually a crime now. Obviously I agree the severity is different but no amount of crime is acceptable.

If i'm in the usa, can i really get someone arrested in russia or europe or china or anywhere for cyber bullying or vice versa, the real world answer is no.

If you can't hold them accountable, double down an make some more marble suits to protect yourself.

[Catteflyterpill]

Just now, petterr44 said:

Cyber bullying is actually a crime now. Obviously I agree the severity is different but no amount of crime is acceptable.

A crime where? That's kind of relative. And while it sucks being a jerk is within the freedom of speech. Maybe not within the Klei's forum policies, much like being off topic isn't. So I think we should focus on the Wolfgang rework and any comments or constructive criticism we might have on it.

[Milordo]

58 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I just want to say I'm incredibly sorry you had to experience that. People love to forget that everyone behind a nickname and profile picture is actually a living person and unleash their worst on the internet. 

I thought the forum community was better than this, it's sad to see that's not the case. To specifically exit the forums just to harass someone without moderators to keep them in check, I didn't even think someone would consider doing something like that. 

Again, I'm sorry you had to go through that over something as insignificant as a video game character. 

You learn from experience that in the end no communities are different from each other. They're all the same and so it exists only one community, where everyone is different but the bad apples will always be there.

[herding dog]

2 hours ago, Josina said:

But it’s not just a brute force damage multiplier that makes combat with him such a delight, the whole package of Wolfgang enables fighting strategies that are completely unique to him, and yes - his speed is a big component of that. But this doesn’t make him overpowered or easier, I challenge anyone who thinks kiting the Dragonfly while she’s enraged is easy to go ahead and try it, and they will find that it requires an enormous amount of skill. If I liked just pressing F to fight I am better off playing Wigfrid, but I enjoy agility and feats in combat, and I don’t see how it is wrong of me to enjoy that. I also really don’t find anything about Wolfgang’s linear values and hunger-driven mightiness to be boring - quite the opposite, because they add to the thrill, because I have to very actively monitor them, and in a precarious situations the timing of precise hunger values and even the eating animation speed of different food items can be critical, because poor timing can literally kill me. Nothing boring or overpowered about that.

You really hit the nail on the head here. Wolfgang is such a particular, unique experience and I'd hate to see that go from the game.

Thank you for writing this post and I'm sorry people are harassing you. That's not fair and you don't deserve it. Please know there are people who feel the same way as you. Your entire post was very well written.

[goblinball]

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

They just echo whatever the most influential person is saying without any unique input of their own. 

Both sides of the Wolfgang argument do this lol

[HowlVoid]

Just now, goblinball said:

Both sides of the Wolfgang argument do this lol

Pffft, not me. I'm uniquely stupid. Just look at my profile if you don't believe me. 

Spoiler

Also it was my idea to give him more mining power is in exchange for more durability loss, while everyone was saying just faster mining speed.

*Cough* not that I'm bragging, of course... 

/S

 

[Hornete]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Also it was my idea to give him more mining power is in exchange for more durability loss, while everyone was saying just faster mining speed.

I think Quartzbeam actually had that idea first, atleast that's what I remember.

[HowlVoid]

6 minutes ago, Hornete said:

I think Quartzbeam actually had that idea first, atleast that's what I remember.

Nope my suggestion has been up since Saturday, he posted that yesterday, but who can say. They got lots of smart folks at Klei they probably come up with it on their own.

Nah, I'm gonna take credit for that one.

[Hornete]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Nope my suggestion has been up since Saturday, he posted that yesterday, but who can say. They got lots of smart folks at Klei they probably come up with it on their own.

Nah, I'm gonna take credit for that one.

Sorry son, i've already contacted the authorities. You sick idea stealing monster.
/s

[QuartzBeam]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Nope my suggestion has been up since Saturday, he posted that yesterday, but who can say. They got lots of smart folks at Klei they probably come up with it on their own.

Nah, I'm gonna take credit for that one.

You're good, kid. Real good. But as long as I'm around, you'll only ever be second best.

[HowlVoid]

11 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

You're good, kid. Real good. But as long as I'm around, you'll only ever be second best.

Thank you senpai, I swear to one day surpass you.

[Cloakingsumo198]

5 hours ago, Josina said:

Thank you for everything. <3

-Josina

Link to my original post

DON'T WORRY COMRADE YOU AREN'T ALONE. Even if some people can't agree to disagree, there is still time for changes and I'm sure the constructive criticism will be sorted from the collective babbling.  Like you said many people are coming out of the wood works to give their reasonings and people wouldn't make these long posts if they didn't care.  But there people who stand with you on your sentiments.

- Another wolf main

 

2 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

You're good, kid. Real good. But as long as I'm around, you'll only ever be second best.

 

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

Thank you senpai, I swear to one day surpass you.

Can't say I haven't appreciated everytime i've seen you guys post. But for whatever reason we got our changes so maybe good things do come with persistence.