Wolfgang's Rework

[Mike23Ua]

I almost forgot the most important thing, team based abilities- Every rework so far has added something that benefits an entire team, and I expect Wolfgang to be no different. Maybe he can craft a 5lb weight he can give to other players they can use as a Melee weapon to get powerful hits like Wolfgang himself.

Something other then just selfish self-contained perks please…

[Just-guy]

I hope his title theme song will sound similar to Entry of the Gladiators, the militar march that became a popular circus melody, I think it fits Wolfgang quite well.

[lakhnish]

They have stated in the past when Volt Goat Jelly was introduced that they were aware of how crazy it was on Wolfgang.

Here's the clip in question (it's part of the video so ignore the thumbnail):

Spoiler

 

Personally, I hope they do something about the animation between going wimpy to mighty; it can get annoying in the long run.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

Personally, I hope they do something about the animation between going wimpy to mighty; it can get annoying in the long run.

to be honest i love needing to check your hunger to dont be in the need of room and time to transform before or during a fight

i fear that klei might give inmunity frames for the transition 

edit: about voltgoat jelly, they should made it as flat damage instead of damage multiplier, in that way it would be the same for all characters and things like killing raid bosses in 20 seconds is fixed

[Toroic]

5 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

They have stated in the past when Volt Goat Jelly was introduced that they were aware of how crazy it was on Wolfgang.

Here's the clip in question (it's part of the video so ignore the thumbnail):

  Hide contents

 

Personally, I hope they do something about the animation between going wimpy to mighty; it can get annoying in the long run.

It’s pretty easy to have the animation be cancellable like most others, and prevents the self-stunning.

[lakhnish]

Just now, Toros said:

It’s pretty easy to have the animation be cancellable like most others, and prevents the self-stunning.

How do you do that? It would make him a bit more enjoyable since I just stuff cooked potatoes in his mouth to just keep him mighty.

[HowlVoid]

34 minutes ago, Toros said:

I’m also curious if they add more of a downside to him.  Lower sanity (150), 30% more sanity drain, and more shadows spawned while insane is my preference, and what I settled on for the mod I made.

Higher sanity drain with more nightmares spawn sounds annoying in boss battles.

Higher nightmare spawn outside of boss battles is too strong for a character with high damage. Then if it stacks with the bone helm that's a lot of nightmare fuel for Wolfgang. I don't see how removing his speed buff would make him more interesting outside of battle. Speed is a great mobility perk and its better to have that than all of the other situational niche perks you listed.

[Guille6785]

I just hope they won't ruin him

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Speed is a great mobility perk and its better to have than than all of the other situational niche perks you listed.

not to insult anyone else's suggestions but this is what bugs me in every wolf rework suggestion thread, speed is light years more intereresting than random minor things like moving statues faster and I've found lots of great early uses for it that enable fights to be way more in-depth than with other characters without throwing a frame perfect input at you every 5 seconds (kiting enraged dfly, dodging fuelweaver bone cages, generally useful for a toad fight with torches, kiting enraged klaus in his second phase and anim cancelling 3 hits during his 1st, doing the twins right away without needing to get speed boosts first, rushing bee queen no cheese without having to go to the ruins first, etc etc)

also spicy jelly isn't much better on wolfgang than on any other character lol, the difference between a x3 multiplier and a x6 one is really small against almost every boss

I feel like a lot of people have a vendetta against wolfgang because of e**y r**k but theyve never actually played him

[Spirit Glow]

31 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I almost forgot the most important thing, team based abilities- Every rework so far has added something that benefits an entire team, and I expect Wolfgang to be no different. Maybe he can craft a 5lb weight he can give to other players they can use as a Melee weapon to get powerful hits like Wolfgang himself.

Something other then just selfish self-contained perks please…

I was literally just about to comment this! I want to finally play with my friends who main Wolfgang who do something other than just eat up all my food  haha jk. But i suspect they will make him more team oriented like they have done with the other characters. Some type of item that only he can craft would be cool

[Toroic]

19 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

How do you do that? It would make him a bit more enjoyable since I just stuff cooked potatoes in his mouth to just keep him mighty.

I’m at work so I can’t open the code, but it’s in my wolfgang mod (wolfgang: stranger newer powers) in the modmain with comments.  Still plays the animation but you can move and cancel it.

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Higher sanity drain with more nightmares spawn sounds annoying in boss battles.

Higher nightmare spawn outside of boss battles is too strong for a character with high damage. Then if it stacks with the bone helm that's a lot of nightmare fuel for Wolfgang. I don't see how removing his speed buff would make him more interesting outside of battle. Speed is a great mobility perk and its better to have that than all of the other situational niche perks you listed.

I’m not following your logic.  
 

Yes, it’s more dangerous in boss battles because you potentially have 3-4 terrorbeaks spawn, and you and your team can farm fuel faster out of combat by utilizing Wolfgang’s fearful nature to get more shadows to spawn.

The design goal was to make boss battles potentially higher risk and provide more utility outside of boss fights.

[Cookie95]

Truth is his current 10% extra sanity drain just feels too negligible. In fact if it weren't for his character description I never would have known. If they choose to keep this as a downside for him I hope they make it more significant.

[Capybara007]

How about a specific nightmare creature that spawns around an insane wolfgang that represents a trauma of his life, just saying so its not just "now sanity drain is more numbers"

[Duck986]

Klei will probably add a special tab for him because every character except Willow got its unique crafting tab after its rework

[Captain_Rage]

1 hour ago, IanKSB91 said:

I mean by what we know Wolfgang could be from any part of Europe, he has reference to be either from France, Spain, Germany and Russia. Or maybe because he lived in a Circus he learned a lot from the different cultures.

Yes, that is a very keen observation. Plus there are regions in Europe with both very strong Russian and German influences and intertwined cultures which date back to the 1920's and even earlier.

[lakhnish]

11 minutes ago, Geo95 said:

Truth is his current 10% extra sanity drain just feels too negligible.

Wolfgang's sanity drain is actually not a downside but a perk. When you wear a Bee Queen hat, you end up gaining 10% more sanity because of it lmao.

For characters like Wendy and I believe Wortox, b/c they lose less sanity from negative auras, they end up gaining less as a result.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

Klei will probably add a special tab for him because every character except Willow got its unique crafting tab after its rework

Because lighters and Bernie dolls would be ridiculous to have their own little self excluded tab.

Doesnt mean she didn’t still technically get them though.

The ONLY character in the ENTIRE GAME with the only current exception being Wilson- who does not have a crafting tab/exclusive craftable of some sort is Wortox.

Deal with it- Wolfgangs getting one it’s already been proven with his exclusive sack thing in the teaser.

[HowlVoid]

38 minutes ago, Toros said:

I’m not following your logic.  

No, you addressed both of my points, there wasn't more to it than that.

Quote

Yes, it’s more dangerous in boss battles because you potentially have 3-4 terrorbeaks spawn,

Yeah, that sound annoying and higher risk for what? Wolfgang isn't a high risk high reward character like Wanda. You already pay for his higher damage with a constant food intake and you get punished if you transform mid battle.

This doesn't add anything to Wolfgang, in my opinion, rather than make some battles more annoying. With the way insanity works, having a higher sanity drain doesn't mean a player is going to go "oh the battle just got harder". People are instead going to need to invest in more sanity restoring food to stay sane which is an annoyance Wolfgang never had before.

The way his sanity drain is at the moment is negated by him ending battles quicker. Most people brush it off as poor balance but it isn't. The small sanity drain remains when in normal and wimpy, meaning Wolfgang is taking more sanity loss as the battle gets prolonged longer than it has to. A prepared Wolfgang is overcoming his fear and isn't crippled by it. I enjoy characters when their downsides and upsides are in balance and work well together. You are his taking downside and crippling him further with a kit that can longer keep up. Sounds to me like you have a preference for a harder Wolfgang that requires more resources for more actively pressing downsides than a balanced Wolfgang.

Quote

and you and your team can farm fuel faster out of combat by utilizing Wolfgang’s fearful nature to get more shadows to spawn.

Wolfgang doesn't need this. I don't even think nightmare creatures have much to do with how fearful someone is given you require shadow magic to see more of them. 

You need a broader scope of how Wolfgang will be enjoyed by everyone that plays him. Not everyone will enjoy or survive the constant onslaught brought on by the higher influx of nightmares, that Wolfgang now needs more resources to deal with for no reason.

Quote

The design goal was to make boss battles potentially higher risk and provide more utility outside of boss fights.

Wanda does high risk/ high reward battles very well and she has a great many tools to deal with it. Wolfgang doesn't need this dynamic any more than Wigfrid or Wendy does.

I take back about it being a powerful downside as the more I think about it the less it seems like it. Just gives your friends something to constantly worry about or force Wolfgang to have a tam on 24/7.

[Mike23Ua]

Considering that downsides have become mostly non-existent with all other character reworks here’s what I’m personally hoping happens:

Remove “Puny” Wolfgang from the game altogether, instead only have Normal & Mighty forms.

But make becoming Mighty require more effort then just stuffing food in his face, allow him to do cool stuff and deal even MORE damage while Mighty, but make the speed buff only useful when in Normal form.

In short- The bigger and stronger he is the slower he’s going to move but the harder he’s going to hit if he catches up to you.

(have any of you ever watched WWE?)

Removing “Puny” gets rid of his only real downside, replace that with an easily avoidable phobia of some sort (they could give him a deathly fear of rats for all I care..) and add the scrapped Rats mob from the original DS concepts.

But overall: my prediction is- Harsh downside axed in favor of a more manageable one, More you can do while being Mighty beyond just damage, and of course.. even more damage (because is mightiest.)

If past reworks are any indication to go off of There is a very very REAL possibility “Puny Form” is getting the Axe.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wanda does high risk/ high reward battles very well

 

[HowlVoid]

16 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 

[Toroic]

43 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

No, you addressed both of my points, there wasn't more to it than that.

Yeah, that sound annoying and higher risk for what? Wolfgang isn't a high risk high reward character like Wanda. You already pay for his higher damage with a constant food intake and you get punished if you transform mid battle.

This doesn't add anything to Wolfgang, in my opinion, rather than make some battles more annoying. With the way insanity works, having a higher sanity drain doesn't mean a player is going to go "oh the battle just got harder". People are instead going to need to invest in more sanity restoring food to stay sane which is an annoyance Wolfgang never had before.

The way his sanity drain is at the moment is negated by him ending battles quicker. Most people brush it off as poor balance but it isn't. The small sanity drain remains when in normal and wimpy, meaning Wolfgang is taking more sanity loss as the battle gets prolonged longer than it has to. A prepared Wolfgang is overcoming his fear and isn't crippled by it. I enjoy characters when their downsides and upsides are in balance and work well together. You are his taking downside and crippling him further with a kit that can longer keep up. Sounds to me like you have a preference for a harder Wolfgang that requires more resources for more actively pressing downsides than a balanced Wolfgang.

Wolfgang doesn't need this. I don't even think nightmare creatures have much to do with how fearful someone is given you require shadow magic to see more of them. 

You need a broader scope of how Wolfgang will be enjoyed by everyone that plays him. Not everyone will enjoy or survive the constant onslaught brought on by the higher influx of nightmares, that Wolfgang now needs more resources to deal with for no reason.

Wanda does high risk/ high reward battles very well and she has a great many tools to deal with it. Wolfgang doesn't need this dynamic any more than Wigfrid or Wendy does.

I take back about it being a powerful downside as the more I think about it the less it seems like it. Just gives your friends something to constantly worry about or force Wolfgang to have a tam on 24/7.

It’s not “annoying” because Wolfgang ends battles in roughly half the time, and actually has more sanity left over than other characters.

With 30% more sanity loss, you’re expected to fight while mighty so your sanity drain is smilar to other characters by the time it is over.

In my mod, you’re not punished for switching forms mid battle because the transformation doesn’t stun you.

Frankly, you’re speaking from a place of ignorance because there were numerous changes made in my mod to *make* Wolfgang higher risk, intentionally, because he is currently very powerful and also very one-dimensional to play.

Wolfgang is currently a low risk, high reward character, and I raised the risk and adjusted the rewards for that reason.

As an example, he now is capped at 200 health in my mod, but can wear marble armor with no speed penalty while mighty.  He is worse in a log suit than before, but is more mobile in the mightiest of armors and can both kite and tank in marble.

Similarly, he can use a piggyback while mighty with no slowdown.

He also can row while mighty at much higher speeds than normal due to boosted oar force.

I also reduced his hunger drain cap to 2x because hunger as a downside is not a very interesting weakness, which is why I made him less durable than wigfrid while keeping the high damage.

Not everyone is going to like what I consider necessary nerfs to allow Wolfgang new abilities that are useful and interesting, because not everyone finds the “eat potatoes and smash things” gameplay loop as boring as I do.

Wolfgang is a strongman whose talents are in applying his highly developed strength.  Strength in a survival situation is much more than just for combat, and I want his rework to reflect this.

But Wolf’s been OP since the beginning, and the answer isn’t just to buff him more.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Toros said:

Frankly, you’re speaking from a place of ignorance

I think I'll stop reading here.

I'm actively trying to make the forum a less toxic place and that includes refraining from partaking in debates made in bad faith. I know that I am also guilty of doing this myself. 

If you think me ignorant than there is no point in arguing with you. You don't care to hear my side of the conversation.

[dip935]

Wolfgang and Wormwood are having a fight.
Probably because he ate the potatoes in front of him. (Potatoes were  friends)

[Maxposting]

Actually, Wolfgang isnt german or russian, he is just europian.

[Mike23Ua]

55 minutes ago, Toros said:

Wolfgang can wear marble armor with no speed penalty while mighty He can both kite and tank.

^^^ this is probably 100% going to be part of his rework, and if it’s not.. it won’t make any sense not to be.

So in addition to doing more damage he can also wear heavy armors without a movement penalty- The Speed Buff should be removed & / Or exclusive to being Puny.

People just don’t realize yet how powerful being able to move at even just normal movement speed while wearing heavy armors will be..

And I just hope Klei is considering nerfing something Somewhere so he can get cool abilities like Wear Marble Armors without it slowing him down.

Otherwise- he just becomes even more OP then he ever needed to be.

I ALSO think he needs to be able to offer some serious utility to a TEAM, something that benefits everyone and not just himself- I have no ideas what that could be just yet.. but being able to carry a bunch of giant crops in his special sack without it slowing him down & a Craftable weight to give other players he gives it to extra damage sound like a fair start.