[Game Update] - Public Testing 485090

[gabberworld]

Just now, Sasza22 said:

I`d imagine radobolt storage should be something like a large ring (like a 4x4 structure) that requires constant power when storing radbolts (something like 120 or 240 and losing radbolts slowly when unpowered). Automation would have to be used to launch the bolts and you could select how many it launches at a time.

also i think it needs some-sort liquid cooling support like liquid input and output ports other-way it fill overhead.

Edited November 7, 2021 by gabberworld

[pether]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, JarrettM said:

Rocket Platforms now have an automation output port indicating if a rocket is on the platform.

I am supper happy for this feature. Can we have something similar in vanilla game? Pretty please!

[Gadd]

While I like the increased danger of radiation, the 0.1 factor between rads and radbolts is kind of confusing. Could you perhaps 10x the effect radiation has on dupes instead of the 10x rad emission?

[NeoDeusMachina]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, JarrettM said:

Spaced Out! only

• Radiation
  • Increased all radiation emission sources intensity by 10x (except Glow Stick trait, which is slightly reduced).
  • Reduced Radbolt Generator radiation to radbolt conversion efficiency by 90%.
  • Increased plant radiation tolerances, minimum radiation requirements, and radiation mutation thresholds by 10x.
  • Adjusted Radiation Eater rads/kcal ratio to roughly preserve old kcal generation potential with the new emission intensity tuning.
  • Radiation now kills germs on ores, buildings, critters and dupes.
  • Radbolt Generator now has a maximum capacity of 500 Radbolts.

I think I get the idea behind the changes, I just don't quite get the execution...

It seems to me like the main goal of the radiation increase and rebalance was to make radiation dangerous for duplicants, enforcing use of protection, radpills, etc. - and I agree with going in that direction.

However, I don't understand why it was done by changing everything like that. Radiation sources now produce 10x more radiation to make it more dangerous, which means every system interacting with radiation had to be rebalanced in order to keep things even. For example, a shinebug reactor may produce 12000rads/cycle now, but radbolt generators are only converting 10% of that into radbolts, so the shinebug reactor is producing radbolts at the same rate as before even if it looks like it is producing a lot more. Same goes for plant mutations: their mutation threshold, rad tolerance, etc. all got increased so that things are the same as before. Since radiation is so much "stronger" now, everything is "greener" in the radiation overlay, and there are radiation particles all over the place. Space is literally glowing green now. (Edit: suggestion - lower the threshold for those radioactive particles by a factor 10 to bring it back to where it was before). I don't know the extent of the impact of all of this on performance, but I am guessing it is probably not helping. I saw a significant drop in performance in my current game on the testing branch, I simply cannot play it at the moment.

"rads" and "rads/cycle" are completely arbitrary units to measure radiation in ONI. For all we know, accumulating 5 rads could be deadly for duplicants and it would not make less sense than 50 with 10x more radiation.

My point is, would it not have been simpler and more logical to change the thresholds for radiation sickess (lower), duplicants resistances to radiation, and how many "rads" are eliminated each cycle by peeing (Edit: and rad pills) instead of boosting the numbers everywhere else and creating all those performance issues, unnecessary glowing particles all over the place, etc.? The way it is implemented now on the testing branch means every single game mechanics interacting with radiation will always have to be rebalanced if the devs want to rebalance how dangerous it is for duplicants, instead of only changing the numbers relevant to duplicants themselves and radiation sickness... or am I missing something?

Edited November 8, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[RuiPalhas]

2 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

I saw a significant drop in performance in my current game on the testing branch, I simply cannot play it at the moment.

Same for me. Since this update my game went from a reasonably smooth play (don't know how many fps as never had to look into it!) down to 3 fps on a world with 1986 cycles and 8 discovered planetoids 

Spoiler

 

[gabberworld]

On 11/7/2021 at 12:53 PM, pether said:

I am supper happy for this feature. Can we have something similar in vanilla game? Pretty please!

it is not necessary needed tho as there other methods to know if rocked is there or not

but anyway if think about this , maybe they could add the game the Laser sensor, it usually works like this, if object between laser and reflector then it activates on signal, distance can made also very long range, well this how it works in real life

Edited November 8, 2021 by gabberworld

[NeoDeusMachina]

1 hour ago, RuiPalhas said:

Same for me. Since this update my game went from a reasonably smooth play (don't know how many fps as never had to look into it!) down to 3 fps on a world with 1986 cycles and 8 discovered planetoids 

  Hide contents

 

 

Relatable - I'm wondering if we lost a lot of performance because of the calculations on radiation going through layers of materials. It is so intense now that it takes a long time to attenuate through any material. From what little time I could manage to endure the low performance, it seemed like each layer of material absorbs a percentage of the incoming radiation, until a low enough amount of rads is in the tile and can be fully blocked. It took sometimes 5-6 layers of solid tiles to block radiation, vacuum doesn't block anything, and gases barely block anything. The numbers start off so high now (10x higher) that it takes a lot more tiles to reach low enough rads to reach the cutoff. In some cases, the radiation would cross whatever layer of solid tiles I would have near the surface of a planet and go all the way to the bottom of the map through various gases and solid tiles. It's a bit too much, it seems like we would need to build multiple layers of radiation shield at the top of each map and around high radiation sources.

Another thing with this overhaul of the radiation system (and of all other systems interacting with it), is that there is so much to change that it's easy to miss on things here and there. For example, the radbolt generator still displays the old value of rads/cycle generated and not the corrected value with 10% efficiency. It basically displays the amount of rads/cycle in the tile it is sitting in, not the amount of rads/cycle it is producing. Should probably file a bug report for that.

Edit: oh and space radiation is planet dependent, so for example on the super conductive planet the background radiation is 375 rads/cycle. It goes through 7 layers of abyssalite and obsidian:

Spoiler

The more I think about it, the more I think this is likely to be why there is such a huge performance drop across the board. I honestly think radiation should go back to the previous numbers and duplicants should be made more vulnerable to it instead, see my previous post.

Edited November 8, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[pether]

2 hours ago, gabberworld said:

maybe they could add the game the Laser sensor, it usually works like this, if object between laser and reflector then it activates on signal, distance can made also very long range

I thought about this, but ONI buildings do not block light

[goboking]

5 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Spoiler

I think I get the idea behind the changes, I just don't quite get the execution...

It seems to me like the main goal of the radiation increase and rebalance was to make radiation dangerous for duplicants, enforcing use of protection, radpills, etc. - and I agree with going in that direction.

However, I don't understand why it was done by changing everything like that. Radiation sources now produce 10x more radiation to make it more dangerous, which means every system interacting with radiation had to be rebalanced in order to keep things even. For example, a shinebug reactor may produce 12000rads/cycle now, but radbolt generators are only converting 10% of that into radbolts, so the shinebug reactor is producing radbolts at the same rate as before even if it looks like it is producing a lot more. Same goes for plant mutations: their mutation threshold, rad tolerance, etc. all got increased so that things are the same as before. Since radiation is so much "stronger" now, everything is "greener" in the radiation overlay, and there are radiation particles all over the place. Space is literally glowing green now. (Edit: suggestion - lower the threshold for those radioactive particles by a factor 10 to bring it back to where it was before). I don't know the extent of the impact of all of this on performance, but I am guessing it is probably not helping. I saw a significant drop in performance in my current game on the testing branch, I simply cannot play it at the moment.

"rads" and "rads/cycle" are completely arbitrary units to measure radiation in ONI. For all we know, accumulating 5 rads could be deadly for duplicants and it would not make less sense than 50 with 10x more radiation.

My point is, would it not have been simpler and more logical to change the thresholds for radiation sickess (lower), duplicants resistances to radiation, and how many "rads" are eliminated each cycle by peeing (Edit: and rad pills) instead of boosting the numbers everywhere else and creating all those performance issues, unnecessary glowing particles all over the place, etc.? The way it is implemented now on the testing branch means every single game mechanics interacting with radiation will always have to be rebalanced if the devs want to rebalance how dangerous it is for duplicants, instead of only changing the numbers relevant to duplicants themselves and radiation sickness... or am I missing something?

 

I like the visual environmental effects, but not at the expense of performance.  If that's the culprit, then hopefully they do what they have to do to get things running smoothly again.

[NeoDeusMachina]

13 minutes ago, goboking said:

I like the visual environmental effects, but not at the expense of performance.  If that's the culprit, then hopefully they do what they have to do to get things running smoothly again.

Agreed - although I am suspecting the performance drop might be due to all the calculations related to radiation passing through materials and being attenuated partially. Since all radiation sources are much more intense, radiation is crossing more layers of material than before and there is probably more calculations going on behind the scenes as a result.

Edited November 8, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[gabberworld]

1 hour ago, pether said:

I thought about this, but ONI buildings do not block light

?. you could just make that , when you start get items at rail for example it means rocked is landed

[Gurgel]

5 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Relatable - I'm wondering if we lost a lot of performance because of the calculations on radiation going through layers of materials

If that is the reason for the massive slow-down, then they will have to reverse that. But I doubt it, because this is a calculation that does not need to be done often and can be skipped completely unless a tile was changed. I think the slow-down has some other reason.

[EricKlei]

The performance issue introduced in this build will be fixed in the next public testing update. It was not related to the radiation tuning changes.

[Primalflower]

i do not enjoy that space & rockets are now incredibly radioactive to the point that rad pills are downright necessary for any sort of extended existence in rockets or on the surface, i don't really feel like those are places where the player should have to worry that much about radiation on top of the other concerns up there : (

[hackcasual]

Anyone else find the game crashing any time you abandon ship with this patch?

 

Assert failed: Unregistered access control was never registered.

UnityEngine.Debug:LogError (object)
Debug:LogError (object) (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/Plugins/Debug.cs:142)
Debug:Assert (bool,object) (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/Plugins/Debug.cs:188)
DebugUtil:Assert (bool,string) (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/Plugins/Klei/util/DebugUtil.cs:20)
AccessControl:RegisterInGrid (bool) (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/scripts/game/Reachability/AccessControl.cs:283)
AccessControl:OnCleanUp () (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/scripts/game/Reachability/AccessControl.cs:133)
KMonoBehaviour:OnDestroy () (at C:/jenkins_workspace/workspace/Preview_Simgame_Windows/game/Assets/Plugins/Klei/util/KMonoBehaviour.cs:230)

Build: U37-485090-S

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by hackcasual

[FoldableHuman]

14 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

My point is, would it not have been simpler and more logical to change the thresholds for radiation sickess (lower), duplicants resistances to radiation, and how many "rads" are eliminated each cycle by peeing (Edit: and rad pills) instead of boosting the numbers everywhere else and creating all those performance issues, unnecessary glowing particles all over the place, etc.? The way it is implemented now on the testing branch means every single game mechanics interacting with radiation will always have to be rebalanced if the devs want to rebalance how dangerous it is for duplicants, instead of only changing the numbers relevant to duplicants themselves and radiation sickness... or am I missing something?

The main hitch in making dupes more vulnerable is just an issue of slack, since at the lower end (even after the 10x boost) you're dealing with single digit numbers. At present the dupe rad scale effectively works from 0-900, with dupes peeing out 60 rads per cycle. If you implemented the change by making dupes 10x more vulnerable you'd be working from 0-90 with dupes peeing out 6 per cycle and minor radiation sickness setting in at 10 rads. Problem there is that even pre-change enough things generate low double digit rads, enough for dupes to pick up a dozen or so just kinda running around doing day to day stuff, just from passing wheezeworts or Glow Sticks or cutting through space. You'd have dupes getting sick constantly from even casual exposure.

Post-change radiation penetrates slightly further, but because the falloff is cumulative as the radiation encounters sequential blocks "rad safe" areas of the base are the same as they used to be, most of the map is somewhere in the 0-1 rads range. By amping radiation rather than making dupes more vulnerable it makes radioactive areas more dangerous while leaving safe areas safe.

[NeoDeusMachina]

54 minutes ago, FoldableHuman said:

The main hitch in making dupes more vulnerable is just an issue of slack, since at the lower end (even after the 10x boost) you're dealing with single digit numbers. At present the dupe rad scale effectively works from 0-900, with dupes peeing out 60 rads per cycle. If you implemented the change by making dupes 10x more vulnerable you'd be working from 0-90 with dupes peeing out 6 per cycle and minor radiation sickness setting in at 10 rads. Problem there is that even pre-change enough things generate low double digit rads, enough for dupes to pick up a dozen or so just kinda running around doing day to day stuff, just from passing wheezeworts or Glow Sticks or cutting through space. You'd have dupes getting sick constantly from even casual exposure.

I mean, of course things would need to be balanced accordingly. Going from 1 to x10 is a huge step in general when rebalancing things. I'm not saying dupes should be 10x more vulnerable, but that it seemed like the intent behind the changes was to make radiation more dangerous for dupes since everything else got rescaled to get back to what it was pre-change. It just seems more logical to change numbers related to duplicants instead of everything else, which means introducing new things like radbolt generator efficiency (set to 10% for now, but I guess this could be tuned in the future if they wanted to). That's is pretty much what I find odd - but I am sure there are reasons why they decided to do it that way

Edited November 9, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[Gurgel]

11 hours ago, EricKlei said:

The performance issue introduced in this build will be fixed in the next public testing update. It was not related to the radiation tuning changes.

Excellent, thank you! Nice that I did guess correctly 

10 hours ago, Primalflower said:

i do not enjoy that space & rockets are now incredibly radioactive to the point that rad pills are downright necessary for any sort of extended existence in rockets or on the surface, i don't really feel like those are places where the player should have to worry that much about radiation on top of the other concerns up there : (

Actually, rad-pills are not needed in rockets. I thought so too and then I forgot to give a dupe permission to use them in an _old_ rocket without the additional shielding and it was no problem at all. I do have 6 tiles lead in place, but that is it. With the new additional shielding 4 or even no lead tiles may be enough. 

Old, the 6 metal tiles are lead. Only two of them take up extra space, the Great Hall is intact:

New:

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gurgel

[FoldableHuman]

12 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

I mean, of course things would need to be balanced accordingly. Going from 1 to x10 is a huge step in general when rebalancing things. I'm not saying dupes should be 10x more vulnerable, but that it seemed like the intent behind the changes was to make radiation more dangerous for dupes since everything else got rescaled to get back to what it was pre-change. It just seems more logical to change numbers related to duplicants instead of everything else, which means introducing new things like radbolt generator efficiency (set to 10% for now, but I guess this could be tuned in the future if they wanted to). That's is pretty much what I find odd - but I am sure there are reasons why they decided to do it that way

I mean there's also the fact that it's more dramatic. The uranium biome is still pretty safe, but it at least shows up on the radiation overlay now.

10x was a big leap for bases that have carried over, possibly generating some very hazardous areas that were previously safe, but from a game-feel standpoint I like the new values. At the very least it creates multiple incentives for lead suits and rad pills, though the decontamination shower is still functionally a decor item for roleplay.

I do think the cap on the radbolt generators is a little low at 500. 750 or 1000 would still prevent runaway stockpiling while feeling a bit less constraining.

[NeoDeusMachina]

On 11/5/2021 at 10:48 PM, JarrettM said:

Possible bug fix for the Saturn Critter Trap not resetting properly after being harvested.

Would this possible bug fix work for Saturn Critter Traps planted before the update or would it only work for newly planted ones?

I have let my game run until the traps completed their digestion cycle and were harvested. They all had hatches sitting on top of them already. None of the plants correctly reset or ate. My plants were planted before the testing branch update.

They did eat after reloading the game as before, though.

[RonEmpire]

Basic rad pills need to be  buffed a bit more. 

[Sasza22]

2 minutes ago, RonEmpire said:

Basic rad pills need to be  buffed a bit more. 

Or maybe we could use advanced rad pills.