Which character should be Revisited?

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve actually stopped playing Wanda altogether (yes lag even on the Xbox Series consoles is that bad..) A Character who can nearly Die to a single lagging Beefalo isn’t my idea of fun.

and you can absolutely FORGET about running around at older age for better damage your gonna want to keep her at 20 or Die a miserable & unfair death.

she’s not even a “Hard” character to play- but LAG makes her “Impossible”

I personally play her mostly in middle age unless fighting TS, CK or DF or farming spiders.

But I don't uderstand how is lag different for Wanda than for any other character. Please elaborate.

[Mike23Ua]

35 minutes ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

I personally play her mostly in middle age unless fighting TS, CK or DF or farming spiders.

But I don't uderstand how is lag different for Wanda than for any other character. Please elaborate.

This should be fairly obvious, but if I lag as any other character I can heal from a variety of methods- Healing foods, healing tab items, Wortox help, tents, random butterflies I punch and eat (unless Wigfrid who heals on hitting things anyway) with WANDA you have to Wait until a Cooldown timer to revert her death bar & her Health is constantly ticking down.. so do you REALLY have time to use her Ageless clock or is that lagging angry Mob going to kill you while you lag back into its attacking radius?

And before you just think I’m a bad player- I normally carry around 2-3 of these Ageless clocks, but… Lag+Healing Cooldowns = A very Bad day.

I have an easier time playing as WES, Wormwood & Walter (Because THEY still have several ways to Heal.. & their health isn’t constantly draining out as you run away from the lagging Enemy) then I do with Wanda on Xbox Series X/S

I love her design.. but until Klei does something about the lag she’s kinda a highly unfair character.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I love her design.. but until Klei does something about the lag she’s kinda a highly unfair character.

i only experience lag if enter in far away servers or servers hosted by potato computers or with many people/mods

vanilla worlds should work very fine with a medium computer(~300€/400€) and ~20mb adsl (conexion that only exist in poor countries, countries with corrupted goverments making deals with internet companies, or rural areas where this kind of tecnology always comes later) so i dont think it is a klei problem unless there is problems with how is programmed in next gen consoles 

[Dollmaker]

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

He likes nature he feels happy, is that so weird? I feel very happy when i got to nature place so i could imagine that a boy scout would like being in the middle of the nature

Also is a sanity related perk so i dont know why is unnecessary 

Are we complaining for the sake of complaining? Because with walter and wurt i always end reading a lot of biased comments for some reason

Like i mentioned, he already has a lot of stuff going on, the character is overloaded and unfocused 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 hours ago, Hornete said:

So, for Walter I'd really like to see some QoL changes, I'd be interested in some more scout crafts but I think that's unlikely to happen, I think he's a pretty good and fun character. I always found the "his design is all over the place" complaints really weird, he has a ranged weapon for a mount that can't attack itself, a portable tent for restoring sanity and health when he's a character that loses both stats upon being hit, and some other sanity restoration methods. The only thing about him that I think is out of place is the bee allergy downside, all this downside does is make BQ even more of a pain than she usually is.

 

19 minutes ago, Dollmaker said:

Like i mentioned, he already has a lot of stuff going on, the character is overloaded and unfocused 

i share a similar opinion as hornet

[Frosty_Mentos]

Woodie's pretty solid and fine imo. Paired with Warly's sugar spices will do all your wood chopping in no time as a Werebeaver. Maybe even better than Maxwell's minions. He has a tank mode

Controversial but - Walter's pretty neat. He doesn't exactly have anything wrong with him besides being allergic to bees. Overall he's ranged and could prolly kite Bee Queen. He's got free extra storage on his own mount that costs monster meat and has a variety of ranged shots. I see nothing wrong besides that maybe his slingshot shoots too slow for me. Though he's fit for quick world exploration.

I think Winona's pretty neat. She got nice tools to set up any kinds of farms and she's perfect for base building when you need her. Quick to do tasks done and makes own cheap sewing kits. But she's mostly just a builder character, she could have had a bit more to get general kit for survival. No complaints though.

Wurt - yeaaaa she's a mess. In concept she seems pretty neat to have her own building tribe of merms but how it's made is weak. Merm King bonus stats are ok for giving her some more tankiness and what not, buffing her own merms - now that's the best thing about it. AND they don't fear the dark, unlike pigs! Will do your bidding anytime. Though considering things - she's very expensive to play and her buildings take up quite a bit of space. Upkeep with the King is not the best, most he can survive is 6 days total while fully fed to starvation. TECHNICALLY you maaaaybe could put some food next to his tapestry thing and it will automatically feed next merm to become a king?

Overall her abilities are more or less strong, which feels iffy to play her still cause I'm not sure what can I do in a short span of loyalty of merms in that time besides kill one or two bosses, king starving mechanic is something I don't really enjoy to care about too much - she's a minion character with overly complicated mechanics. EVEN WEBBER feels stronger than her at any stage of the game. Both very different characters but has similar mechanic in mind. 

Wurt is just... bleh. She has nice skins, nice quotes and all that, but she doesn't feel convenient enough to play with what she offers. Maybe simplifying her kit a bit would make her enjoyable? idk.

[Echsrick]

after this update thing yes its wurt not just how some hats are broken lookin but alsol whit other things like merms just gettin stuck and not goin back home and what not it puts even more salt that someone puts wanda bishop whit tamo and klei instand sees it and wants to fix it but whit me givin in most wurt skins whit tamo hats its nothing was been say about that so what now?

[Dollmaker]

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

 

i share a similar opinion as hornet

The thing is, you can argue he is  "Ranged" character, but the only thing that encourages said playstyle is the sanity loss when getting hit, he doesnt do less dmg when in melee, in fact i think he does more than with the slingshot due to its slow casting.

His Bee downside while funny, it only ever applies with Bee Queen since normal bees are really easy to avoid even when running trough a field of killer bees. 

Cant gain sanity from dress items, this one does fit better, considering his childish behavior, and it adds to the challenge of keeping him sane since he can quickly go insane from getting hurt (which also encourages the range playstyle) 

Woby helps him with the ranged playstyle as well

 

Now look at his other perks:

Has a portable tent

Loses less hunger from sleeping

Has a hat for sanity and protection to sanity loss when hit.

Cooks faster

Gains sanity by being near tress

Gains sanity by telling stories in a firepit 

Has a permanent chester that doubles has a mount

 

While thematically they fit, design wise, its just unfocused, like its been mentioned in the past, it feels like two characters in one, most of those perks dont contribute with the ranged playstyle at all (or even a playstyle in general), thats why people think he needs to be looked at

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

TECHNICALLY you maaaaybe could put some food next to his tapestry thing and it will automatically feed next merm to become a king?

yes, the merm does that at werepig munch speed

 

about wurt. She isnt suppose to have fancy perks like wanda, wormwood or abi. She is just a better wilson so, if you enjoy the game in late game, she makes playing for long a pretty confortable experience with all her QoL perks. Also she gives some changes into the gameplay with her diet and her inmunity to wetness (unless you change to warly, this is very welcome to fight under the rain) and how cheap is to hire her brave followers you end using them more than with any other character.

About why she is confortable:

- her hunger bonus makes worth munching things like kelp or figs so, if you have those on base, you wont be openning your bundle that much

- her fish perk makes weather something very confortable since in winter you dont need torches or starcaller staffs saving 1 slot, in summer you only need 1 slot for a icyfish saving you X slots depending of your strategy and in spring you will only need 1 slot for the first half. Also it passively gives sanity. I have a boat with few fish of each kind and i only have to change them everytime i go back to base, if i plan a long trip i just bundle 4+1 in my inventory. The only drawback is that you cant use them to fight toad in winter or during spring since the sporecloud will kill them

- having workers that can be hire by just stonefruit, seeds or honey is amazing. The reason i dont use followers that much with other characters is because pigs are kinda expensive for their short work time (i might use them in very early for extra logs) and as fighters they arent great, bunnymen (i dont know why people compare merms with these when they are awful in comparation) are only avaraible at dusk and night, they are only useful for fighting (for autofarms you arent using the follower mechanic), require active farming to have carrots avaraible vs 1 weather pain use on +400 stonefruits, they are dangerous since 1 mistake picking meat and you are done

- early cobblestone, having speed boost in swamp turf makes the early game much nicer since you will work in your base a little faster and, unless you use a huge army of followers, for beequeen is a nice help in the early days

i can understand that people would expect something more ornate than a scaled wilson and is true that she have potential for multiple kind of deeper gameplays but she isnt as bad as a lot of people considere. If her gameplay were a mess i wouldnt play her to the point of being the character i played the most, with others i always got bored after many days but with her i was always trying new things

about the follower bug, Isnt a fix but what i do is to make a merm war whenever i dont want to have followers so im sure all the merms will respawn and i can use the fish for other stuff like making more houses, trading with merm king for totally awesome loot (sarcasm...) or use the bones for lamps and the rot or rotten fish for farming

all she needs is fixes and a refresh on her king 

[Hornete]

8 minutes ago, Dollmaker said:

most of those perks dont contribute with the ranged playstyle at all

Why do they need to contribute to the range playstyle specifically?

Wanda's backtrek watches dont contribute to her combat abilities with the Alarming Clock.

Wormwoods farming perks dont contribute to his bramble traps and bramble armors.

It's a good thing hes not focused on ranged only, most new characters Hamlet and onwards have had several perks and downsides that help with different playstyles.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Dollmaker said:

While thematically they fit, design wise, its just unfocused, like its been mentioned in the past, it feels like two characters in one, most of those perks dont contribute with the ranged playstyle at all (or even a playstyle in general), thats why people think he needs to be looked at

yes, he looks like a range character and a boy scout character mixed but that was the intention

being just a range character, in this game, would be problematic and being a boy scout is just underwhelming even when he could have a lot of QoL perks arround farming basic materials so klei made a support range character with the theme of being a boyscout and as downside they gave him the sanity thing which fit as downside for his range part and have a lot of potential for little perks in his boy scout face

i dont see what is so wrong. The only problem with him is how underwhelming are his main perks: slingshot and big woby for that he looks like a soup of little perks because nothing shines

if klei buff the slingshot to be a nice support tool must have in every scenario then we will say "ey what a cool ranged character and see how many perks to make life confortable he has" but meanwhile we have a challenge character since his gameplay is arround not being hit with few little perks

other characters have little perks but dont look out of place because they have a gameplay that works arround a big fat perk

[Dollmaker]

4 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Wanda's backtrek watches dont contribute to her combat abilities with the Alarming Clock.

 

Yeah thats ONE thing, Walter has a lot more.

4 minutes ago, Hornete said:

Wormwoods farming perks dont contribute to his bramble traps and bramble armors.

 

If anything its viceversa, DST Wormwood is more focused on farming than the Hamlet version, the Bramble stuff i guess was mostly made has an alternative to fighting since he cant heal with food.

18 minutes ago, Hornete said:

It's a good thing hes not focused on ranged only

The thing with Walter is that he is not focused on anything, im not saying it should be the only thing, but hes too spread out right now.

 

 

[Yuuko]

I hear people say they think Walter's kit is unfocused, and I kinda agree and kinda disagree...  I think I disagree thematically.  Having a boy scout with that optimistic attitude expressed with his unique sanity mechanics, loving trees, campfires, having a pet dog that carries things, even the bee alergy are all thematically sound ideas.  The problem is entirely in the mechanics of it.  Nothing in his kit really has the right synergy mechanically.

wall of text tl/dr - Brando's got what Walter craves => synergy.

Spoiler

Walter is kinda like Wanda - he is a risk reward character.  Wanda's risk / reward is very simple.  She is low health, and constantly losing health.  She can recover health only a single way.  For flirting with death she is given Wolfgang+Darksword tier damage.  To help her she also gets more range on her attack, and backstep watch to give her more options for playing at this level of risk.

Walter still faces risk.  He's not quite as close to death as Wanda, but isn't that far away either...  If you are riding woby taking a single hit can mean death, or near it.  Being low health means you're stuck at low sanity until you can heal.  Low sanity isn't usually much of a problem, but dropping to 0 sanity instantly in a boss fight and getting 2 terror beaks added to the fray is.

The problem with Walter is that his kit doesn't address his real weakness, which is taking damage or being at low health.  The kit addresses his sanity, which is kinda moot because either you're still low health and your sanity will bomb again anyway, or you have good health and fight 1-2 sanity monsters removing all sanity problems almost instantly.  I think without changing much on his kit some cohesion can be brought by just aligning his perks to play around his actual problem - and then we exacerbate that problem a bit so you feel punished / rewarded more for your play.

1) Tent - The tent recovers less health than a normal tent, meaning its not effective at getting Walter back to full health.  No one likes sleeping anyway, as it wastes time.  Walter should always just chug bluecaps to recover health and never craft this tent.  Give the tent the full 2 hp / second recover - or better yet scrap it and give Walter a first aid kit.  A craftable / consumable that gives the user a heal over time effect like jelly beans.

2) Pioneer Hat (and Trees) - It doesn't matter if you remove some of the sanity bomb if his health is still going to get low.  Also 80% health reduction from a football helmet is always better than preventing only some sanity loss...  What the hat should do is stop his sanity drain from being low health.  You wear it when you're *not* in combat to bide your time while you heal up.  When you're in combat, when you would take damage, you should be wearing armor instead of this hat every time.  (Similarly cut his sanity drain while being near a few trees, or just cut the tree perk all together.  Its superfluous anyway.)

Basically if Walter is at full health his sanity takes care of its self, if you're still low health your sanity will be empty again anyway, so it doesn't really matter how much sanity recovery you have.  Between 31 and 200 sanity there is no functional difference, so you don't feel the benefit of any sanity recovery, hence people feeling a disconnect in his kit.  So his perks should cover health management, where the player actually feels the change.

3) Campfire Stories - This is fine since its his way of sharing his ez-sanity perk with the team.  Maybe even turn it up some so its worth hearing him honk his horn for a bit.

That all done and his kit starts to make sense both thematically and mechanically.  The only thing left to do is fix his slingshot.  As it is I found hambatting everything with the same strats as every single other character was the way to play Walter.  The slingshot needs to have a bit of a boost to make it shine - similar to Wanda's alarming clock, it should be the center piece of his kit.

Right now his slingshot has slow rate of fire, low damage, and mild-ish effects.  I think the slow rate of fire fits well in enforcing the skill cap on Walter but the effectiveness has got to go up up up.  Seeing what they did with Wanda, I think an interesting mechanic would be to have his damage from his slingshot scale based on his sanity (high sanity = high focus = precision shots.)  At max sanity he should be dealing between hambat and darksword tier dps with marble rounds.  This way there is a difference between 31 and 200 sanity.  Might give his effect pellets aoe at high sanity too, allowing you to slow / freeze / de-aggro multiple mobs with a single shot.  For their crafting cost its the least they could do.

Then nerf his melee damage similar to Wendy and Wes, and increase his sanity drain from taking damage & being low health since he now has tools to properly address it.

[Mx-Pain]

Walter, he sucks.

[Dollmaker]

Well, so far Wurt is leading ahead in votes.

Havent really played her but it seems her issues are largely related to bugs and ai problems 

[ZeRoboButler]

Personally, issues on Wurt are kinda a matter of potential, like how interesting interacting with the king could be, or how her interactions with fish pets "could be" more interesting. The ai bugs are a bit pesky, although, I haven't really been too bothered by them. normally I just place the houses next to what I want the merms to be used for, wood and living logs = near forest, killing bosses = warrior merms near said bosses. If they die I kinda just recycle the fish into more houses, for more wood, for more everything really.

[W0l0l0]

I think the whole Walter dislike thing is because his perks don't dominate or define a playstyle like one might for another character.

Slingshot doesn't fully replace melee, given the damage comparisons and ammo. 

Woby doesn't fully replace a beefalo, and is irrelevant when using melee anyways. 

Stories and freaking trees are no match for cactus and taffy.

Tent is just there, but again, wouldn't define a whole playstyle the way Wortox's souls would. 

The exception to the rule I'd say is probably the whole sanity thing. I actually really like it as an upside/downside, it makes sense thematically and has interesting implications. It just wouldn't be relevant if the intended recipient is away from any aura with a slingshot anyways.

[minespatch]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:02 PM, Shosuko said:

Nothing in his kit really has the right synergy mechanically.

That's what I said, thanks for your essay. Sums up what I was talking about.