Don't Starve Together is a Sandbox Game

[SuperMeatGoy]

Balance doesn't matter, get over it.

I don't like involving myself in this game's community, especially the forums, but this needs to be said. Don't Starve Together is a drastically different game than it was when it first came out. It's not about survival and it hasn't been for a long time. 

So we have a character who does more damage than wolfgang, has more utility than wickerbottom, has a downside that mitigates itself, and is functionally immortal. Klei's very own Mary Sue. How did we get here? All you need to do is look at the direction Klei has been going with their updates. A slow but unyielding process that has ultimately conditioned most of us through the games transformation, like a frog in boiling water. 

Every single bit of NEW content (not refreshing, that comes in later) that we have gotten since 2019 has either been components of sidequests (which ultimately just lead to fighting another raid boss), or the implementation of said raid bosses. The only exception would be the new ocean content but that itself is disconnected from the mainland and would require you to prosper before actually doing anything meaningful in the ocean. Most if not all of the devs meaningful content has been shoved away from the average player's grasp, in the oceans or in the caves locked behind two biomes.

If all this content is so out of the way and the average player cant make it to winter, how do you get your new playerbase to interact with all this new content? Make the game easier. You cant just nerf every single mob and mechanic? Buff the players. While the content updates aim to add Terrariaesque quests and bosses, the "refresh" updates give substantial abilities in the players hands to make said content more accessible. Remember when people complained about the holy trio for trivializing the game? Yeah I'm sure comparatively theyre still super busted. RWYS? another means of easy stat management right from your base. 

For all of you "hardcore survival fans" still trying to cope with the subversion of the game through various delusions (the most common one being "oh I'm sure once all the characters are stronger they'll make the world much harder to compensate"), it's not even worth trying. It's clear what direction the game is going, hell just look at the new gameplay trailer. I see basically no mention of surviving, it's just base building & fighting bosses. this is the new product they're selling. This has been a long time coming. This is how the game will stay and remain.

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices.

[PasssionFish]

Just now, SuperMeatGoy said:

So we have a character who does more damage than wolfgang, has more utility than wickerbottom, has a downside that mitigates itself, and is functionally immortal. Klei's very own Mary Sue. How did we get here? All you need to do is look at the direction Klei has been going with their updates. A slow but unyielding process that has ultimately conditioned most of us through the games transformation, like a frog in boiling water. 

Wanda is not technically released yet and klei seems to listen to peoples opinions, also they know that wolfgang wicker and WX are very strong, but it is difficult to rework things without changing too much.

 

Just now, SuperMeatGoy said:

If all this content is so out of the way and the average player cant make it to winter, how do you get your new playerbase to interact with all this new content? Make the game easier. You cant just nerf every single mob and mechanic? Buff the players. While the content updates aim to add Terrariaesque quests and bosses, the "refresh" updates give substantial abilities in the players hands to make said content more accessible. Remember when people complained about the holy trio for trivializing the game? Yeah I'm sure comparatively theyre still super busted. RWYS? another means of easy stat management right from your base. 

I am A slower and more casual player but I think having stronger characters might help people to start on easy mode and then adapt to challenges when they want to? Im not sure but yes some characters are very strong but doesnt it still take A while to prepare?

 

Just now, SuperMeatGoy said:

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices

console players, and bugs.

Personally I think dst is very different from what it was before yes, but maybe dst is kind of where the devs can go wild with their ideas, while still keeping vanilla ds the same so you can play that if you prefer the old dst, I dont know im not a developer. It has changed and has its issues, but it can't be perfect for everyone, and it doesn't need to stay the same. I think its still about survival, but most players have mastered basic survival and now they are adding fun things for the long-term players? idk.

not trying to be rude just voicing my opinions as well.

 

[glob]

you received the dose of attention you needed. 

game's sandbox if you want from it to be sandbox, just enable god mode and creative mode and you got your own sandbox. "hardcore survival" if you want from it to be that too. just enter any pub server 

 

 

[SuperMeatGoy]

2 minutes ago, ldris said:

I have been baited... anyway 

game's sandbox if you want from it to be sandbox, just enable god mode and creative mode and you got your own sandbox. "hardcore survival" if you want from it to be that too. just enter any pub server 

 

 

Calling bait doesnt work on an internet forum when i have insurmountable evidence in my favor. Keep coping if you genuinely think your average pub server is "hardcore survival"

[goblinball]

45 minutes ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices.

Don’t forget about world gen customization! Game too easy for you? Start in winter, or increase the amount of hounds, limit the amount of grass, etc. All of these customization tools are at people’s fingertips, yet almost everyone forgets about them when discussing difficulty or whatever.

[ZombieDupe]

Everything you've described so far I would say is a basis for a progression-based survival game, not a do-whatever sandbox game. Though I would have to ask what you would describe as a sandbox game to have a more comprehensive discussion on that.

I do agree that the game should be easier. I also agree that the game should get harder. But it's where these difficulty changes are made and how that's important as they pertain to different players who may be playing along side each other or at least on the same server but in a different location at the same time. That's why balance is important.

Just now, goblinball said:

Don’t forget about world gen customization! Game too easy for you? Start in winter, or increase the amount of hounds, limit the amount of grass, etc. All of these customization tools are at people’s fingertips, yet almost everyone forgets about them when discussing difficulty or whatever.

Have been wanting to address this for a while. None wants to finnick with those. It takes time and effort. You're basically putting the design of difficulty and access in the hands of the player. That's laborious. What can solve that are developer-made presets, but they kind of suck for DS and DST. Also you will need to find good players that will be willing to play with you if you don't like playing alone on say Lights Out. They are much better done for ONI and are much more in-your-face when you are given the visually elaborate menu of selecting your starting planetoid. That also means balancing and getting these presets as a method of difficulty are more appropriate for single player games. That's why there's much more to challenge players in a fun way in ONI than there has really been in DS or DST.

[HowlVoid]

You could try playing as Wes.

[Baark0]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You could try playing as Wes.

ah yes, the classic way to increase difficulty

[SuperMeatGoy]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You could try playing as Wes.

Bruh I'm not complaining about it, I'm saying that it's an uphill battle whenever someone complains about X thing being OP when ultimately balance hasn't mattered for years and the bar has been set much higher for what constitutes as overpowered & sequentially explaining the process in which the game transitioned

19 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Everything you've described so far I would say is a basis for a progression-based survival game,

The progression-based survival game with no functional progression & significantly reduced survival?

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Baark0 said:

ah yes, the classic way to increase difficulty

Pffft, not for the difficulty, its for that sweet sweet miming. 

[goblinball]

18 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

t takes time and effort. You're basically putting the design of difficulty and access in the hands of the player. That's laborious.

It’s literally just a few switches, it takes but a single click of a button to increase/decrease world settings. If this is too challenging for you, then I question why you are playing dst to begin with.

[Horsheen]

At it's core the game is still a survival game. Yes, the game is easier than it used to be but don't forget the fact that you can tweak the world settings and overall just avoid things you don't like. Think farming is too strong? Then just don't farm. Don't like Wanda? Just don't play her when she comes out.

The game is becoming more accessible and I think it's a good thing. I never played DST for it's difficulty, I played it for it's unique world and characters. Now of course I'm not everyone and people play DST for different reasons, but this of course means that not everyone will be pleased.

Why does balance even matter for a co-op game? I'll never know.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

Balance doesn't matter, get over it.

I don't like involving myself in this game's community, especially the forums, but this needs to be said. Don't Starve Together is a drastically different game than it was when it first came out. It's not about survival and it hasn't been for a long time. 

So we have a character who does more damage than wolfgang, has more utility than wickerbottom, has a downside that mitigates itself, and is functionally immortal. Klei's very own Mary Sue. How did we get here? All you need to do is look at the direction Klei has been going with their updates. A slow but unyielding process that has ultimately conditioned most of us through the games transformation, like a frog in boiling water. 

Every single bit of NEW content (not refreshing, that comes in later) that we have gotten since 2019 has either been components of sidequests (which ultimately just lead to fighting another raid boss), or the implementation of said raid bosses. The only exception would be the new ocean content but that itself is disconnected from the mainland and would require you to prosper before actually doing anything meaningful in the ocean. Most if not all of the devs meaningful content has been shoved away from the average player's grasp, in the oceans or in the caves locked behind two biomes.

If all this content is so out of the way and the average player cant make it to winter, how do you get your new playerbase to interact with all this new content? Make the game easier. You cant just nerf every single mob and mechanic? Buff the players. While the content updates aim to add Terrariaesque quests and bosses, the "refresh" updates give substantial abilities in the players hands to make said content more accessible. Remember when people complained about the holy trio for trivializing the game? Yeah I'm sure comparatively theyre still super busted. RWYS? another means of easy stat management right from your base. 

For all of you "hardcore survival fans" still trying to cope with the subversion of the game through various delusions (the most common one being "oh I'm sure once all the characters are stronger they'll make the world much harder to compensate"), it's not even worth trying. It's clear what direction the game is going, hell just look at the new gameplay trailer. I see basically no mention of surviving, it's just base building & fighting bosses. this is the new product they're selling. This has been a long time coming. This is how the game will stay and remain.

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices.

Hahahahahaha HA HA HA HA HA HAH!

Ahem- sorry, I don’t mean to be rude but the first thing I need to point out is 1-Mods do not exist on consoles never have.. probably never will.

And 2- Klei has been making the game easier AND Harder Simultaneously at the EXACT same time.. the recent QoL that lets me toggle how much more or less different mobs and features spawn? There’s your difficulty bar right there.. WITHOUT MODS.

Case in point- You can now toggle MORE Flowers to spawn in your world but also NONE for the Butterflies known to spawn from them.

You can set Shadow monsters to NONE (which goes completely against everything the franchise stood for…) or you can set them to TONS & be challenged beyond the Default status.

I think people are under the “Illusion” DST is nothing like DS but outside of not having a 5 chapter Adventure Mode where dying starts you back at Chapter 1 (still hoping someday DST gets an Adventures Mode)

The ACTUAL difference between DS and DST with DST you have a menu full of things you can toggle on/off, more/less over  (DS solo had this too but to a much lesser extent..) This menu lets you do things like the above mentioned more flowers but no butterflies..

[Erineyes7]

1 hour ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

Balance doesn't matter, get over it.

Balance Does Matter

It's a difficult thing to describe, but if a character is way to strong, it can ruin your experience by making things to easy, and if a character is to weak, it can make everything less fun and tedious.

DST has always had this problem, and I think Klei has been pretty good with balance over time, and when to let things rest. When it comes to new content.

Sandbox or not, every part of how the game interacts is important to making a coherent experience, which is where I think Klei gets confused. The base game is hard for a lot of people, so additions to the later game don't even reach most of the player base.

The early game is not a sandbox, the late game IS.

(No Klei, this is not an invitation to make the early game easier, it's perfect.)

[ZombieDupe]

18 minutes ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

The progression-based survival game with no functional progression & significantly reduced survival?

Reduced survival how? Maybe there's less newly made content that directly impacts survival, that doesn't make existing content not survival focused, which it is and has not been reworked in many aspects ever. There is progression, but only for people who know the mechanics of the game. You can't get bone armor day 1 without console commands, there's progress to be made before you can get to triumph that.

16 minutes ago, goblinball said:

It’s literally just a few switches, it takes but a single click of a button to increase/decrease world settings. If this is too challenging for you, then I question why you are playing dst to begin with.

For one setting? Sure, that's also how presets work, just a click of a button. But dozens or maybe even hundreds of them? And self-doubting, testing if it will actually make the game better for your experience, then realising you probably will be playing on your own with any more difficult settings so it's pointless to try in the first place? Settings also go so far. What if what you want isn't in the settings? Get a mod? What if you realise you want more of those? What if there are no mods for what you're looking for? Gonna learn how to mod to make a mod out of it yourself, or live without it? Yeah, doesn't take a few seconds.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

Balance doesn't matter, get over it.

I don't like involving myself in this game's community, especially the forums, but this needs to be said. Don't Starve Together is a drastically different game than it was when it first came out. It's not about survival and it hasn't been for a long time. 

So we have a character who does more damage than wolfgang, has more utility than wickerbottom, has a downside that mitigates itself, and is functionally immortal. Klei's very own Mary Sue. How did we get here? All you need to do is look at the direction Klei has been going with their updates. A slow but unyielding process that has ultimately conditioned most of us through the games transformation, like a frog in boiling water. 

Every single bit of NEW content (not refreshing, that comes in later) that we have gotten since 2019 has either been components of sidequests (which ultimately just lead to fighting another raid boss), or the implementation of said raid bosses. The only exception would be the new ocean content but that itself is disconnected from the mainland and would require you to prosper before actually doing anything meaningful in the ocean. Most if not all of the devs meaningful content has been shoved away from the average player's grasp, in the oceans or in the caves locked behind two biomes.

If all this content is so out of the way and the average player cant make it to winter, how do you get your new playerbase to interact with all this new content? Make the game easier. You cant just nerf every single mob and mechanic? Buff the players. While the content updates aim to add Terrariaesque quests and bosses, the "refresh" updates give substantial abilities in the players hands to make said content more accessible. Remember when people complained about the holy trio for trivializing the game? Yeah I'm sure comparatively theyre still super busted. RWYS? another means of easy stat management right from your base. 

For all of you "hardcore survival fans" still trying to cope with the subversion of the game through various delusions (the most common one being "oh I'm sure once all the characters are stronger they'll make the world much harder to compensate"), it's not even worth trying. It's clear what direction the game is going, hell just look at the new gameplay trailer. I see basically no mention of surviving, it's just base building & fighting bosses. this is the new product they're selling. This has been a long time coming. This is how the game will stay and remain.

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices.

This might have held water if kiel hadn't done any rebalancing post 2019 but at this point i think your deluding yourself.

[SuperMeatGoy]

2 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Reduced survival how? Maybe there's less newly made content that directly impacts survival, that doesn't make existing content not survival focused, which it is and has not been reworked in many aspects ever. There is progression, but only for people who know the mechanics of the game. You can't get bone armor day 1 without console commands, there's progress to be made before you can get to triumph that.

The most pathetic example of progression you could possibly muster up. 2 out of 8 megabosses require a boss to be defeated beforehand. It's not progression as much it is a lock or a gate to prevent you from immediately just killing the boss. You dont really get any stronger when you kill either bosses "gate", they merely serve as another prerequisite for a plattered fuelweaver. And once he's defeated the game doesnt get more difficult nor does the world really change so therefore the only ""progression"" you get from killing these locked up bosses is another endgame toy.

Also could you give me a good example of a progression based survival game? the two genres are inherently contradictory.

13 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

The base game is hard for a lot of people, so additions to the later game don't even reach most of the player base.

Yes, which is why survival is being made substantially easier. No point in making all these sidequests if 95% of players wont be able to experience them.

[JoeW]

Please keep posts constructive and polite. Thanks. 

[NightfallsCurse]

3 hours ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

To anyone trying to "fight for what this game once stood for", through advocating for balance changes or complaining about how OP the game is now, just go modded. Uncompromising Mode, Feast & Famine, Conquer The Constant and Black Death are all excellent choices.

No need for mods unless you're looking for a nice challenge, but there are a ton of world settings to mess around with to make your survival harder. You don't always need to increase food, neutral mobs (pigs, bunnymen, etc), instead, make your survival life harder by increasing dangerous mobs, messing with hard seasons (Autumn is the ONLY safe one), heck you could even decrease the amount of food! Maybe wildfires could be increased, frog rain? Lightning? Mods were NEVER the only way to make life in the Constant hard

These world gen configurations have never not been by your side, they have always been there to help you with difficulty issues, yet, people think you HAVE TO use mods in order to challenge yourself as you leave the world settings to rot after all they've done for you? Mods are sometimes good for a change, but first, use the world settings to help with your issues. They can help you, and you can always change them later

1 hour ago, HowlVoid said:

You could try playing as Wes.

Yes, want a good challenge? Wes is always a good start

3 hours ago, SuperMeatGoy said:

Balance doesn't matter, get over it.

Yes it sure does

If your life is so easy that it's miserable, go ahead and play a good, nice, balanced character, since Wilson doesn't have any downsides but only one upside, then why not play him?

playing as Op characters really does ruin your gameplay experience. but playing as a balanced character makes you feel like you're rewarded, but not in a "not so rewarded way" (if you used a lot of OP gear and an OP character) or a "I am super rewarded way" (like playing as an underwhelming, difficult, not-so-balanced character)

HoPeFuLlY tHiS mAkEs SeNsE tO yOu

Now, G'day : )

[Mike23Ua]

I keep saying this in nearly every thread to the point I’m sure Klei is sick of seeing it- but maybe now it’s time I went a little more into depth with it then I have in the past.

Recently I played a world setting where I completely disabled any NORMAL Bee Hives, and in return only enabled the Always HOSTILE Nest versions and set those to spawn MORE 

What this does in GAMEPLAY Terms- Means I actually have to go fight Angry Bees just to gather some Honey.

Klei could modify this menu further to ramp up the difficulty: for example- being able to toggle rather or not a Birdcage can be crafted would mean the difference between FREE Eggs.. and Having to go actually fight something like Tallbirds Nests or Pengul to OBTAIN Eggs from glorious Battle (or cleverly stealing and running away) Other Mobs that dropped Eggs? Shipwrecked Snakes & Hamlet Scorpions.

But it strips away the “Put bird in cage feed MM create Pierogi Meta” and it does that by disabling one little craftable structure.

Beefalo Wool is another excellent example: in the same way you can toggle rather or not they can go into heat maybe in this same area you can toggle rather they can be passively shaved for wool, meaning you would actually have to fight and kill them just to get wool.

In the same way I made gathering Honey more challenging for myself, more could be done to these menus to give us more control and enjoyment over our play sessions without needing to resort to mods 

(which console players still don’t and probably will not ever have..)

[Auth]

I can understand the argument that some people like the game getting easier and overall more sandboxy, however starting a thread as dismissively as "get over it" and effectively saying "The game you want will never exist! Stop giving your opinion & shut up you big dumb idiot!" is just a really bad move.

People are and always have been open to voice their opinions on the development of Klei's games on here. It's part of what makes the forums such a nice place, it feels as if your ideas and individual inputs can be actually heard and discussed by people who can either constructively criticize or back it up. I believe it's very reasonable for a part of the community to enjoy the harder survival edge that Don't Starve gave/gives off, and for them to enjoy content centered around it. These people are just as entitled to give their input on the game as anyone else is, no matter what perceived direction the game is taking. As an example, even though Minecraft's current development seems centered around refurbishing existing areas of the game, I can still ask for entirely new directions to take, even if that's not where the ship's currently being pointed.

[Well-met]

if balance doesn't matter why does klei give downsides to characters?

[SuperMeatGoy]

5 minutes ago, Well-met said:

if balance doesn't matter why does klei give downsides to characters?

because they can be fun when done correctly & makes character more "unique". if downsides truly a tool of balance we'd be seeing alot harder ones than a 1.1x sanity drain (or maybe we'd downsides that DONT immediately turn into upsides like Wendy's 0.75x damage that is more often than not actually 1.16x damage.)

Also i question whether or not you actually read the OP judging by this poor attempt at deflecting everything i said with what is overall a meaningless question. You do realize characters can have a downside but still be busted right? If would-be OP characters were actually shackled by downsides like youre implying this game would be a hell of alot less fun.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Harsh balance isnt needed. Not all characters should be the same, is good to have different difficulties, game mechanics blablabla but other thing is ignoring feeling rewarded in a videogame.

Where is the fun of playing with godmode? 

That is the reason i hope for a Wx rework, being uneable to die isnt fun even if is the most sand box sand box ever made balance should be taken nto account

[FourthLess]

Just want to say Conquer the Constant and Uncompromising Mode are awesome. So sorry for console players who can't experience them.