Why my liquid pipes are getting damage?

[sheaker]

Is this normal phenomena that I am not aware yet? Or something has changed recently?

[JRup]

This doesn't look fully "normal" at all. I blame the liquid vent.

Story time: I had something similar happen with a setup that had a more than one liquid vent at the end. What happened to me is that somehow liquid lost its direction (?) after splitting a 2kg/s pipe into 2 x 1kg/s lines (single valve setup) and then a random packet derped on load and provoked a burst. I had solved it by adding an additional building to provide unambiguous direction to the pipe flow (I used a liquid valve because I'd thought about further testing that way).

What I'm trying to say is use a bridge either after the pump setup or right before the liquid vent. This could help.

[Yobbo]

How hot are your pipes? It looks like they are boiling your hydrogen.

[JRup]

55 minutes ago, Yobbo said:

How hot are your pipes? It looks like they are boiling your hydrogen.

A mini liquid pump is being used (1000 g/s or 1/10th of pipe capacity), this means that the liquid used is to bring pipes to a working temperature for said liquid and phase change shouldn't matter. Something else is wrong in this case because hydrogen is being boiled despite the fact.

[sheaker]

Thank for confirmation.

I checked it pretty carefully and I am sure no hydrogen packages were above 1000g limit. So 1000g hydrogen packages were damaging pipes in that case. What I noticed:

- Heat damage occurred only few times.
- Heat damage occurred when the pipes were almost as cold as LH. (~ -249 C)
- Fortunately it stops after restarting the game 

I hope it was just a one time issue and we will never face it again.

[nakomaru]

Adjacent to your empty/burst packet is a 979.7g packet. This probably means a 1020.3 packet was pumped after that, which definitely can happen with mini pumps - but I've only seen it happen when multiple elements are involved.

I'm guessing it also happens in low volume environments like you have. So if you want to be sure use a valve.

[JRup]

5 hours ago, nakomaru said:

Adjacent to your empty/burst packet is a 979.7g packet. This probably means a 1020.3 packet was pumped after that, which definitely can happen with mini pumps - but I've only seen it happen when multiple elements are involved.

I'm guessing it also happens in low volume environments like you have. So if you want to be sure use a valve.

Got it, no trusting the mini liquid pump either. Adding safeguards to future builds should be done. Either a hydro sensor/liquid valve or both.
 

Spoiler

Now that I rustle the hazy memories, I recall someone already distrusting the pump and adding a valve for that (it was a whole different build but the thing popped into my mind just now. I'll add it if I find it.)

Thanks!

[sakura_sk]

@JRup you mean this topic, right? The one probably nakomaru refers to, also (about multiple elements)

Spoiler

I also had flashbacks of the mini pump not behaving 

 

[JRup]

15 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

@JRup you mean this topic, right? The one probably nakomaru refers to, also (about multiple elements)

  Hide contents

I also had flashbacks of the mini pump not behaving 

 

It is indeed the one. I don't know how many forum pages I'd browsed without finding it. Thank you for clearing my brain haze.

[Craigjw]

Are you really sure you need that much H2 storage?  I mean, how many thousands of cycles are you intending to pause H2 production for?

Your H2 storage is generally only there to act as a buffer, so that you can continue to produce H2 between launches.

Launching 4 rockets continually, I found a storage of ~50 tiles was more than ample.

[mathmanican]

8 hours ago, Craigjw said:

Are you really sure you need that much H2 storage?

Are we playing the same game.  I never ask the question, "Is this too much."  We can, so we do. 

[babba]

5 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Are we playing the same game.  I never ask the question, "Is this too much."  We can, so we do. 

MORE is MORE because we wants MORE

I read the great thread which seems to be about a kitchen counter and I kindly greet valued member @DaClown 

As "Plutonium Croissant Armchair General" I am sitting in my arm chair, from where I`m sending greetings to the kitchen counter and all associated household goods and forumistas ! Hail the coffee machine, ave Caesar !

[DaClown]

Hey @sheaker if you have the inclination to do so, would you mind testing that LH processor for hydrogen loses?

I have a suspicion that the steam destruction that we've been discussing may be effecting these LH processors, but it wouldn't necessarily be as noticeable because the hydrogen isn't looped quite like in the steam engines.

Based on what we've seen with the vents in the steam engine cases, I expect that the gas and liquid vents here are likely destroying packets every now and then.

 

[sheaker]

1 hour ago, DaClown said:

Hey @sheaker if you have the inclination to do so, would you mind testing that LH processor for hydrogen loses?

You mean just running the setup that cause the problem then, to analyse if there are additional hydrogen losses there?

1 hour ago, DaClown said:

Based on what we've seen with the vents in the steam engine cases, I expect that the gas and liquid vents here are likely destroying packets every now and then.

Didn't it require three different types of medium like crude oil + steam + water trying to occupy the same tile?

[DaClown]

34 minutes ago, sheaker said:

You mean just running the setup that cause the problem then, to analyse if there are additional hydrogen losses there?

The setup you have now maybe with a valve on the pump to better ensure that the packet sizes are 1 Kg consistently in the pipe would be fine. And yeah, to analyze if there are hydrogen losses at all inside the chamber that we don't expect to be there.

28 minutes ago, sheaker said:

Didn't it require three different types of medium like crude oil + steam + water trying to occupy the same tile?

@wachunga and @ghkbrew managed to build a model without a steam turbine that only involves water and steam. A bulk quantity of deletion was traced to something having to do with the timing of the liquid vent--I expect gas vents will have the same issue--and how it interacts with the save-load conditions.

Liquid hydrogen and gaseous hydrogen intermixing via vents is very analogous, so I expect that we can reproduce the bug with your setup.

  

On 4/26/2021 at 9:46 AM, ghkbrew said:

So it's definitely not the steam turbine's fault:

Starting from @wachunga's test2.sav (which is deleting mass consistantly every time for me, btw) I duplicated the temperatures and added 20kg/tile of steam to this contraption. 2kg/s of 95C water goes in and 2kg/s of steam goes out, but the total mass is dropping at an identical rate (afaict) to the steam turbines above.

My new theory: there is a race condition that let's the water in the vent interact with the surrounding steam before it is emitted.  If there's enough of a temperature delta to boil the water in 1 tick somehow it gets deleted. 

test5.sav 85.46 kB · 4 downloads

Wachunga found that the deletion was sensitive to heat, so I am curious as to whether or not a cold setup will delete as readily as a hot setup.

[ghkbrew]

42 minutes ago, DaClown said:

Wachunga found that the deletion was sensitive to heat, so I am curious as to whether or not a cold setup will delete as readily as a hot setup.

I doubt there was anything specific to water with the bug. So, you could probably reproduce it with hydrogen if you find the right temperatures. But, I did test super heated water, without any deletion. So I doubt, you'd see it in this case.

More likely, if hydrogen is being deleted here, it's because you have small drips of liquid hydrogen (<10g) that are being deleted when they land.

[degr]

Aee, forgot about this things like "0.1 kg will not damage my pipes". Make brutal ceramic insulated pipes and transfer 10kg packages. One rocket charge would take more time then fill your storage.

[Parusoid]

when you click the pipe and hover over status it tells you the reason of daamge

[sheaker]

12 hours ago, degr said:

Aee, forgot about this things like "0.1 kg will not damage my pipes". Make brutal ceramic insulated pipes and transfer 10kg packages. One rocket charge would take more time then fill your storage.

The point is to pre-cool the liquid pipes. 10kg hydrogen package vs several 400kg pipes can result in damage.

3 minutes ago, Parusoid said:

when you click the pipe and hover over status it tells you the reason of daamge

It is shown in the video. Heat damage.

[degr]

1 hour ago, sheaker said:

The point is to pre-cool the liquid pipes. 10kg hydrogen package vs several 400kg pipes can result in damage.

Depends from material. After I made it from ceramic, hydrogen broke pipes after it flow inside during many cycles. Absolutely have no idea how many, I forgot to disable button. From other side, I implicitly "precool" them with 10kg packages, because it going straight to rocket tank, precool first part of path, and then back for the same path. Think total path 1/3 or 1/4 of vanilla map, not too large and not too small.