Nuclear Feedback

[Earl_of_Earlier]

So I just tried the current state of the DLC for a first playthrough. After 800 cycles, I feel like I have a solid impression. To start out on the most imporant note: The overwhelming majority of the new content is excellent. Space travel is significantly more fun than in the base game, and there's a whole lot of new tools that are just a joy to play with.

Which leaves me to talk about the one oddity amongst the otherwise great new things: Radiation.

The whole radiation-thing feels, at this point, very much shoehorned in. Most notably, the seemingly random requirement of nuclear research for absolutely essential technologies. This feels very weird. I set down the nuclear research station next to the shipwreck, did all research with it, and now there's no reason to use radiation at all. Why I should go through the trouble to build a research reactor setup, I have no idea. It would be one of those "I have nothing left to do, let me try this"-projects. Which is fine on its own, but then it shouldn't make the rest of the game more tedious.

There are two things that I feel would require change to make the whole nuclear thing an interesting feature:

1. More mid-game applications. The plant mutation thing seems to go that direction. Still, I feel it needs A LOT more small little things that we can do with it to make it actually interesting.
2. Change research requirements. Maybe anything radiation gets their own little, optional, research groups. Most importantly, though: I feel like the arbitrary requirement of nuclear research for essentials such as solid transport and solar energy just needs to go. It makes no sense, and blocks off vital tools. As of now, it just makes the midgame-transition more tedious. It neither adds fun, nor makes things interesting.

At the current stage, I think it'd be best to just remove the nuclear research requirements altogether. Throw everything radiation into its own research line, and let us choose to not choose it. If no one plays with it, then it might just not be interesting enough in its current state.

[Lacero]

I've not had any issue with radiation research.  the challenge it gives you isn't about finding radiation, using the ship on the second planet seems overkill.  with how many cycles the game takes a few shine bugs or a single wheezewort can generate the radbolts fast enough from a single radbolt generator.

It's really a test of having a consistent power supply.  you have to deliver 480w to the generator for a longish time.

From a game design point of view it makes perfect sense to gate certain kinds of power supply (steam generators and solar) behind something that proves you can make consistent power and have caused yourself whatever short term issues with co2/heat from coal/lumber.  The game is about leapfrogging longer and more stable solutions after all and this is a nice new step that adds to that. 

[SackMaggie]

I support the nuclear with it own category, And It shouldn't block the base game stuff (Many research feel like it just a gate).

And well since we have Botanical research this make perfect sense for that.

For me it's just feel wrong getting nuclear before solar.

[Gurgel]

At the moment, nuclear is not well integrated. One thing is that there is no sustainable source for reactor fuel. The reactor really could be an end-game power source, but not this way. Also, radiation protection only makes sense if you really make radiation part of industrial, long-running processes.

[Bromster]

Would be pretty cool if there was some way to consume nuclear waste to provide some incentive for refining uranium.

[spkthed]

I expect this to change as the DLC progresses - it's still a brand-new system. Not even mutations are a core system being added from scratch. One small point even now - radiation is required for one method of inter-planetary shipments and arguably the most useful one. There are long-term uses for it though to your point, they are limited.

But yeah, I won't be messing with it either until it's renewable. Related - mastering a radioactive volcano with both head and radiation concerns sounds wonderful, and the flagship project to stabilize - especially cross-planet shipping. Suggestion on this front - maybe add a flag to electronics just like plants have - if there's an excess of radiation, maybe cause wires to short out. Maybe make other electrical components randomly stop working in excess radiation (think power shortage). Could be a useful way to add creativity to designs.

[Khullag]

Disagree partially. Yes there are not so many applications yet for nuclear, but as plant mutations have shown - devs have plans for nuclear.

So TLDR: don't run in front of the train - nuclear just made it's baby steps into the DLC.

Regarding "hiding essential technologies behind nuclear research points", it actually forces you to try the new system and challenges you. Some people will rush through nunclear research using wheezworts ("rush" is a bad word here, because that would be awfully slow :D), others would think "hmm wheezworts take too long to provide research points, ok what do i need to do to improve my radiation production" and they will go into nuclear reactor setup.

And on top of that, I would actually make some as you say "essential" items even harder to get. E.g. solar panels - IMO they should stay on the same power output, but require 200kg Glass + 100kg Plastic + 100kg Steel. Because everyone just rushes solar and gets unlimited amount of energy for their base and then comes to forums to complain how broken it is. Steel is not a problem to get on the first asteroid with a temporary refinery setup, but plastic requires you to setup a base on other asteroid and oil refinery (either via teleporter or rocket trip) - so it's a decent effort to put in for such kind of return as "stamp some solar panels and forget about energy".

[Gurgel]

8 hours ago, spkthed said:

I expect this to change as the DLC progresses - it's still a brand-new system. 

I agree. The current state is less than optimal, but it very likely is not the final state. And the fine folk at Klei do listen to the comments here.

One thing I would like to see is a small, integrated radbolt generator running on uranium, or some other way to make a small, local radbolt generator not based on plants.

6 hours ago, Khullag said:

E.g. solar panels - IMO they should stay on the same power output, but require 200kg Glass + 100kg Plastic + 100kg Steel.

I think solar is easy currently to make testing out stuff easier. Eventually, I expect it will get harder.

[Hokaeru]

To me the thing which is not so clear is how to restrict radiations and have dupes not be sick, because shinebugs, space and such, are radioactive. If I build a reactor, okay this is gonna be protected, but else it is puzzling. I always want to "tackle" a problem, such as slimelung, it is either here or gone. But for radiation it is there and your dupes will perhaps get sick. Any advice ?

[SharraShimada]

ATM nuclear is more or less useless for my gameplay at all.

The tiny bit of radiation i need is for research and for the stuff cannon (and i´d rather would use energy than radbolts... its a bad concept).

The cannon i just use with space radiation and 4 collectors. Its just doing its thing over time, and i do not care at all. No need to speed up the thing. 

Research is generate radbolts inside a wheezeworts cooling chamber as a byproduct. More than enough rads per cycle. 

I do not even bother with refining uranium nor the reactor. For me the whole radium-stuff is just a waste of storage space, i would rather just shoot into the next star or so. I do not need this stuff at all. There is just nothing to do with it. 

So... Radioactive Update just did not really happen for me. I have to deal a bit with it, but not enough to say, yes thats a good update. 

[spkthed]

Y'all are jumping into a car on the production line and going 'there's no tires, this car is useless'. There's seats, a frame, seatbelts, an engine. It'll have heating, cooling, and wheels eventually. Just gotta wait for it to hit the road first

[Gurgel]

3 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

The tiny bit of radiation i need is for research and for the stuff cannon (and i´d rather would use energy than radbolts... its a bad concept).

I agree. It makes zero sense to have it run on radbolts. 

3 hours ago, spkthed said:

Y'all are jumping into a car on the production line and going 'there's no tires, this car is useless'. There's seats, a frame, seatbelts, an engine. It'll have heating, cooling, and wheels eventually. Just gotta wait for it to hit the road first

We comment on the current state and what we like and do not like with it. I am pretty sure almost everybody knows this is not the final state. And I am pretty sure the folk at Klei know how to take these comments. 

In the meantime, we can comment whether the seats are comfortable, whether the frame seems to fit and whether, as things are, we can give them some real testing.

[pether]

On 5/18/2021 at 2:53 PM, Earl_of_Earlier said:

Most notably, the seemingly random requirement of nuclear research for absolutely essential technologies. This feels very weird

I cannot agree with that. I really like new research points and I'd hope to see even more of them in the future.

But yes, I agree there should be more applications for radiation. Interplanar Launcher sounds like a cool option, but this is quite a late game building. More stuff for early-midgame would be great. (I still hope to see promised popcorn)

[ZombieDupe]

What if radiation was required for teleportation stuff? So you could only use the teleporters once and would have to recharge them with radiation somehow. Meanwhile the teleporters between systems would require a steady supply of radbolts and would go down fast inside the resource teleporters. That could be one way of making a nuclear power station necessary so you can collect lots of rads for radbolts fast to teleport resources and recharge teleporters for duplicants to travel through.

[pether]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

What if radiation was required for teleportation stuff?

I never knew how badly we need that until you post it!

[crbd115]

3 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

What if radiation was required for teleportation stuff? So you could only use the teleporters once and would have to recharge them with radiation somehow. Meanwhile the teleporters between systems would require a steady supply of radbolts and would go down fast inside the resource teleporters. That could be one way of making a nuclear power station necessary so you can collect lots of rads for radbolts fast to teleport resources and recharge teleporters for duplicants to travel through.

Yea I mentioned a few times of them having an energy/rad bolt cost. I think this would be a good compromise for the people who don't like the current design of teleporters and the people who are very attached to them. We really do need more rad bolt and power consumers in the game and since the teleporters are usually running constantly this would be a reason to have a consistent and probably larger source of rad bolts.

[goboking]

7 hours ago, pether said:

But yes, I agree there should be more applications for radiation.

Medical applications seem like a natural fit for radiation.  X-ray machines could be utilized in healthcare, for example.  Or disease clinics could use radbolts to zap zombie spores instead of sun bugs and wolframite.

[SharraShimada]

9 hours ago, pether said:

I cannot agree with that. I really like new research points and I'd hope to see even more of them in the future.

But yes, I agree there should be more applications for radiation. Interplanar Launcher sounds like a cool option, but this is quite a late game building. More stuff for early-midgame would be great. (I still hope to see promised popcorn)

I do not agree with you pether. I accept though, some people like the concept. I on the other hand do not. I am tempted to just enable debug mode only to unlock all research on start, because i´m just bored of the whole research concept. 

I think we agree ONI is a game often replayed. Start a new colony, try things, and at a certain point, start over. Especially when it comes to the frequent updates to the DLC, with its changes only applying on new generated worlds. And every time, one has to go through the same boring process to get acces to essential stuff again and again and again. Its even more annoying when it comes to more complex tech-research. I´m at a point where it just cheat a few tons of plastic and food into my rocket, and let one dupe make all the research in one hard and painful row. Its no fun, and i´d rather skip the whole research hell in the future at all.

[goboking]

1 hour ago, SharraShimada said:

I do not agree with you pether. I accept though, some people like the concept. I on the other hand do not. I am tempted to just enable debug mode only to unlock all research on start, because i´m just bored of the whole research concept. 

I think we agree ONI is a game often replayed. Start a new colony, try things, and at a certain point, start over. Especially when it comes to the frequent updates to the DLC, with its changes only applying on new generated worlds. And every time, one has to go through the same boring process to get acces to essential stuff again and again and again. Its even more annoying when it comes to more complex tech-research. I´m at a point where it just cheat a few tons of plastic and food into my rocket, and let one dupe make all the research in one hard and painful row. Its no fun, and i´d rather skip the whole research hell in the future at all.

It sounds like your problem is with research in general and not just with nuclear research.  Luckily there are cheats that allow you to bypass research if you truly find it unpalatable, but I'm personally glad it's a part of the game.

[SharraShimada]

Na, research in general is a bit annoying but okay. I place 2 research stations and form there no worries. But when it comes to nuclear or space research i have to put work into it i do not want to at all. Everything was fine until the nuclear update. 

[crbd115]

2 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

Na, research in general is a bit annoying but okay. I place 2 research stations and form there no worries. But when it comes to nuclear or space research i have to put work into it i do not want to at all. Everything was fine until the nuclear update. 

I just find the space research in the rocket part to be tedious. I would rather have the old system of a research module that gathers data then you analyze that data in your base. I do like the consuming plastic for research part but I don't really enjoy constantly fiddling with the new rocket command capsules. 

[pether]

7 hours ago, SharraShimada said:

I do not agree with you pether. I accept though, some people like the concept. I on the other hand do not. I am tempted to just enable debug mode only to unlock all research on start, because i´m just bored of the whole research concept. 

It sounds like you find whole research idea boring. I agree, vanilla one was quite meh, there was nothing interesting happening there. You could unlock all tech tree many cycles before you could even build unlocked buildings, so it didn't matter that much because in the end tech didn't really block anything that much as resources/atmo suits/oil access

Thats why I like changes in the DLC - you cannot just unlock everything before cycle 20 and forget about it, it makes research being part of the game much longer and is much more interesting. If you are bored with research concept, you should like that change, but it seems you dislike the whole research so much you'd rather see it removed than expanded. Well, ofc you can, we can agree to disagree I guess.

3 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I just find the space research in the rocket part to be tedious. I would rather have the old system of a research module that gathers data then you analyze that data in your base. I do like the consuming plastic for research part but I don't really enjoy constantly fiddling with the new rocket command capsules. 

Well, I have mixed feelings... On one hand I really like that orbital research is unique and you cannot just put a building in a random room in your base. On the other hand - providing plastic can be micro-management intensive, and therefore less fun. Maybe good idea would be to build orbital research station from higher amounts of plastic but remove it research cost? I don't know...

[goboking]

4 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I just find the space research in the rocket part to be tedious. I would rather have the old system of a research module that gathers data then you analyze that data in your base. I do like the consuming plastic for research part but I don't really enjoy constantly fiddling with the new rocket command capsules. 

I'd happily trade what we have now for the Virtual Planetarium.  The art and animations on that one were too fun to leave on the cutting room floor. 

[sakura_sk]

26 minutes ago, goboking said:

I'd happily trade what we have now for the Virtual Planetarium.

 Isn't orbital research animation fun?! I think you mean we need both, right? 

 

1 hour ago, pether said:

Maybe good idea would be to build orbital research station from higher amounts of plastic but remove it research cost? I don't know...

I think needing more than 200kg plastic to begin research would be too much  (maybe not... If it changes I would be certain  ) .

What I find a problem, on the other hand, is how fast these few orbital points are researched. Even the animation feels a bit fast-forward compared to other research stations. Nuclear research has the radbolt production for scaling up/down while orbital could be finished all in one trip if you have enough plastic stored. There is no scaling there. You either have the plastic and can research most/all or you haven't and you wait until you have (in order to have less trips/micromanagement)

[SharraShimada]

I do find the research stuff much too repetitive with many new worlds. One can rush through the part with only the 2 basic research stations, but then you have to deal with basic atomic stuff (not that hard though just annoying to make a setup that provides constant radbolts and not killing dupes in the process) and then you get to the point where atomic and orbital research plays ping pong. Its just not a smooth progress anymore. 

I really like system is set up, even rather complex ones, and then forget about them, because they just run. I invest time and labor in such a system but i dont like to be bothered all the time from it. And thats what atomic and orbital research is constantly doing. It bothers me, with no food in the rocket, no plastic, return, because oxygen is depleted, atomic research is stuck, because radbold generation was 1% off and did not fire when dupe leaves the room... such things. 

I do really hope there will be some additions made by KLEI to make this stuff a bit smoother.