[Spaced Out! Update] - 458389

[pether]

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

Any time a player makes a suggestion to add some complexity the newer players who are against it seem to be the most vocal.

I don't think adding complexity for sake of adding more complexity would be a good thing. I believe you wanted to address difficulty instead.

More complexity means that mealwood needs to be fertilized with X when it is night, Y when it is morning and Z when it is afternoon. But exactly 2 per day, if duplicant cares for it 3 times it wilts for a cycle. But if the duplicant has both Farming and Cooking skills, Y must be replaced with V. But if the plant is surrounded by 3 duplicants, Z must be W instead, or U, but double per cycle. But if... etc... More difficulty means that mealwood has smaller temperature tolerance.

I will oppose adding complexity to the game just because complexity. I hated durability system for that reason. But I will welcome any difficulty changes, preferably- using menu options to increase it. 

1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

Slimelung doesn't matter, food poisoning doesnt matter, no meteorites so endless solar power and no need for mass steel production

Full agree on the diseases, we NEED to have option to make them more severe, even lethal. Making a cure for them is more costly and detrimental than the slimelung itself and one can treat it only for fun and giggles.

But I totally support KLEI on their decision for temporal meteor showers disable. They watnted to move space to mid-game, before steel and atmosuits and make it more fun and dynamic. I believe they achieved their goal and I like space much more than before when I queued all space-related tasks and went sleep only to see hours later that they are in the middle of the work. This wasn't playing the game, this was sleeping and waiting for the game to advance. Not really fun. Now it feels better, but to make it happen KLEI had to disable meteors. IMO this is a small cost for a great game.

I believe meteors will come back on more advanced asteroids. Until then, yes, solar energy will be easier. I like how it is now locked after green tech, is it enough - tbh I don't know, but it is for sure step in the right direction before more balance in the future

[Steve8]

No meteors on the starting asteroids would work if they just reduce the sun's intensity there, so panels aren't as effective.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Steve8

[crbd115]

17 minutes ago, pether said:

I don't think adding complexity for sake of adding more complexity would be a good thing. I believe you wanted to address difficulty instead.

More complexity means that mealwood needs to be fertilized with X when it is night, Y when it is morning and Z when it is afternoon. But exactly 2 per day, if duplicant cares for it 3 times it wilts for a cycle. But if the duplicant has both Farming and Cooking skills, Y must be replaced with V. But if the plant is surrounded by 3 duplicants, Z must be W instead, or U, but double per cycle. But if... etc... More difficulty means that mealwood has smaller temperature tolerance.

I will oppose adding complexity to the game just because complexity. I hated durability system for that reason. But I will welcome any difficulty changes, preferably- using menu options to increase it. 

Full agree on the diseases, we NEED to have option to make them more severe, even lethal. Making a cure for them is more costly and detrimental than the slimelung itself and one can treat it only for fun and giggles.

But I totally support KLEI on their decision for temporal meteor showers disable. They watnted to move space to mid-game, before steel and atmosuits and make it more fun and dynamic. I believe they achieved their goal and I like space much more than before when I queued all space-related tasks and went sleep only to see hours later that they are in the middle of the work. This wasn't playing the game, this was sleeping and waiting for the game to advance. Not really fun. Now it feels better, but to make it happen KLEI had to disable meteors. IMO this is a small cost for a great game.

I believe meteors will come back on more advanced asteroids. Until then, yes, solar energy will be easier. I like how it is now locked after green tech, is it enough - tbh I don't know, but it is for sure step in the right direction before more balance in the future

Ok when I say complexity I don't mean making individual tasks more complex I mean the game itself. Mostly in terms of how many paths there are to approach the game itself. More choices that all have reasons why or why no to make the decisions you make. Say for example power on the swamp asteroid. Your only real options are, duplicant labor, plug slug ranching (which no one really does for a number of reasons) and solar power. You have coal from the caustic biome but not much and not sustainable without hatches, you have hydrogen from your electrolyzers but most of that is being put back into the electrolyzer set up itself, and eventually you can make use of geothermal from the magma/volacanoes at the bottom of the map but that's pretty much only an option after you've basically stabilized and gotten all the resources you could want anyway.
When I say complexity I don't mean things to micromanage, I mean more options and player choice. 

[babba]

@crbd115 Maybe Klei needs another 2 years to implement endgame challenges and really big emergency events which challenge the "rich", "fat"and "bored" players.

They could work 1 entire year on some Emergency DLC, including sparks, fire, combustion, explosions, firefighters, earthquakes, giant meteors, electric storms, acid rain, aliens, black holes appearing and whatnot.

Edited March 31, 2021 by babba

[n_t_p]

4 hours ago, pether said:

It is already nerfed a lot. You can't just rush solar panel techs because you need rads for it first.

I got pannels up by cycle 70. I could do faster too. Rad research is only an obstacle if you don't know how to do it, which I sorta did.

1 hour ago, goboking said:

Theoretically, difficulty settings should allow Klei to appease both camps.  We have a No Sweat mod, so why sequester the current, non-threatening iteration of germs there and reintroduce the old, potentially lethal version in Survival mode?  Or give us options to toggle germs, meteors, etc, on/off.  Let us customize the game to be as easy or challenging as we want it to be and everyone wins, right?

No. Noobs don't get thermium without mastering meteorites. Magma planet deserves the steepest difficulty because it houses literally the best materials in the game. If you can't do that you have no need for thermium. We can make them into better players. If they really want to play around with thermoum that's what sandbox is for.

 

But klei won't do it. Literally as soon as patch notes read "meteorites added to magma planetoid" hundreds of whiners will flood the forums, without having even started up the game or loading a save. They won't even attempt it regardless of any tools klei gives them or mitigations made, because the real money isn't in game design it's in wish fulfilment. Baby game made for whiner babies who can't handle germs or radiation or meteorites.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by n_t_p

[crbd115]

41 minutes ago, pether said:

 

But I totally support KLEI on their decision for temporal meteor showers disable. They watnted to move space to mid-game, before steel and atmosuits and make it more fun and dynamic. I believe they achieved their goal and I like space much more than before when I queued all space-related tasks and went sleep only to see hours later that they are in the middle of the work. This wasn't playing the game, this was sleeping and waiting for the game to advance. Not really fun. Now it feels better, but to make it happen KLEI had to disable meteors. IMO this is a small cost for a great game.

I believe meteors will come back on more advanced asteroids. Until then, yes, solar energy will be easier. I like how it is now locked after green tech, is it enough - tbh I don't know, but it is for sure step in the right direction before more balance in the future

I think that they could've made the surface less hostile by simply reducing the time between meteor showers. If they made it happen like once every 5 cycles fine, since before it was almost every cycle but not having them at all just means endless free energy. Steel is not hard to set up at all you just need to basically run polluted water up to the cold crust area with a metal refinery dumping the output back on the floor.  The whole waiting issue was mostly because rockets took entirely way too long to do their job in the base game which yea they fixed but that has nothing to do with meteors.
Also meteors were a decent source of unrefined metal which would help make plug slug ranches actually viable.

14 minutes ago, n_t_p said:

No. Noobs don't get thermium without mastering meteorites. Magma planet deserves the steepest difficulty because it houses literally the best materials in the game. If you can't do that you have no need for thermium. We can make them into better players. If they really want to play around with thermoum that's what sandbox is for.

 

But klei won't do it. Literally as soon as patch notes read "meteorites added to magma planetoid" hundreds of whiners will flood the forums, without having even started up the game or loading a save. They won't even attempt it regardless of any tools klei gives them or mitigations made, because the real money isn't in game design it's in wish fulfilment. Baby game made for whiner babies who can't handle germs or radiation or meteorites.

 

 

Lol harsh

Edited March 31, 2021 by crbd115

[n_t_p]

2 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

I think that they could've made the surface less hostile by simply reducing the time between meteor showers. If they made it happen like once every 5 cycles fine, since before it was almost every cycle but not having them at all just means endless free energy. Steel is not hard to set up at all you just need to basically run polluted water up to the cold crust area with a metal refinery dumping the output back on the floor.  The whole waiting issue was mostly because rockets took entirely way too long to do their job in the base game which yea they fixed but that has nothing to do with meteors.

Problem with lowered frequency is the drop in resource gain, while the infrastructure investment stays the same. They need to be more resource dense if they occur less frequently.

[crbd115]

1 minute ago, n_t_p said:

Problem with lowered frequency is the drop in resource gain, while the infrastructure investment stays the same. They need to be more resource dense if they occur less frequently.

I mean sure but that's just a numbers thing. That's easy to change for balance.

[Electroely]

3 hours ago, pether said:

Btw, IMO the beacon should follow the logic of printing and porta pods and be allowed only one per asteroid. When I put two of them, the 2nd was ignored by all incomming payloads.

I actually would NOT like this because, as much sense as it makes, being able to enable/disable the beacons with automation does give reason to be able to build multiple.

[Unfawkable]

7 hours ago, pether said:

Full agree on the diseases, we NEED to have option to make them more severe, even lethal. Making a cure for them is more costly and detrimental than the slimelung itself and one can treat it only for fun and giggles.

But I totally support KLEI on their decision for temporal meteor showers disable. They watnted to move space to mid-game, before steel and atmosuits and make it more fun and dynamic. I believe they achieved their goal and I like space much more than before when I queued all space-related tasks and went sleep only to see hours later that they are in the middle of the work. This wasn't playing the game, this was sleeping and waiting for the game to advance. Not really fun. Now it feels better, but to make it happen KLEI had to disable meteors. IMO this is a small cost for a great game.

I believe meteors will come back on more advanced asteroids. Until then, yes, solar energy will be easier. I like how it is now locked after green tech, is it enough - tbh I don't know, but it is for sure step in the right direction before more balance in the future

 

Agreed with all of this, it was always a gripe I had with diseases not being important at all except the Zombie spores which you can really easily go around and not disturb at all. And I wasn't able to find a satisfying mod that makes diseases more challenging either.

As for meteors, they were a pain in the ass to deal with as a first challenge when reaching the surface and it did make space not fun. You couldn't possibly have mid game space with them still being a thing on the first asteroid. Them being a thing on more advanced asteroids is what I can agree with.

The solar panels are actually indeed a problem in regards to just how easier they are now to use due to meteor removal. But I think this can easily be corrected by straight up nerfing them all around. Increase glass cost, reduce power production, increase Rad tech requirement, and/or just increase their width size by 2-3 tiles. Since Asteroids are smaller now, your space area is also smaller so being able to fit less solar panels since you'll also need room for rocket launching would be a nerf as well.

[crbd115]

1 hour ago, Unfawkable said:

 

Agreed with all of this, it was always a gripe I had with diseases not being important at all except the Zombie spores which you can really easily go around and not disturb at all. And I wasn't able to find a satisfying mod that makes diseases more challenging either.

As for meteors, they were a pain in the ass to deal with as a first challenge when reaching the surface and it did make space not fun. You couldn't possibly have mid game space with them still being a thing on the first asteroid. Them being a thing on more advanced asteroids is what I can agree with.

The solar panels are actually indeed a problem in regards to just how easier they are now to use due to meteor removal. But I think this can easily be corrected by straight up nerfing them all around. Increase glass cost, reduce power production, increase Rad tech requirement, and/or just increase their width size by 2-3 tiles. Since Asteroids are smaller now, your space area is also smaller so being able to fit less solar panels since you'll also need room for rocket launching would be a nerf as well.

The only part of meteors that was a pain was having to do the whole surface, now with each asteroid having a smaller surface I feel like this wouldn't be a big deal. I think people were just overly intimidated by meteors because it's not hard at all. You just build a ladder straight up to the top of the map then put bunker doors across as far as you need to use and repeat until you've covered the top of the map. Then you can just set up your surface how you want at your leisure until your ready to start opening the doors again.

[Unfawkable]

43 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

The only part of meteors that was a pain was having to do the whole surface, now with each asteroid having a smaller surface I feel like this wouldn't be a big deal. I think people were just overly intimidated by meteors because it's not hard at all. You just build a ladder straight up to the top of the map then put bunker doors across as far as you need to use and repeat until you've covered the top of the map. Then you can just set up your surface how you want at your leisure until your ready to start opening the doors again.

The problem with this isn't necessarily the difficulty of doing it or even obtaining Steel to do it, it's the sheer amount of time it took to manually build. It delays launching anything by 20-30 cycles for sure until you get everything setup, and that's a big chunk of time to do something that's supposed to be basic in Spaced Out since its main theme is being involved into launching rockets more often and earlier.

If there was a more streamlined way to protect yourself that doesn't eat up as much of your time and resources but is still challenging to set up, I would personally be fine if they kept them on all asteroids.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Unfawkable

[pether]

10 hours ago, crbd115 said:

When I say complexity I don't mean things to micromanage, I mean more options and player choice. 

Oh yeah, more options and solutions to a single problem are always good!

8 hours ago, Electroely said:

I actually would NOT like this because, as much sense as it makes, being able to enable/disable the beacons with automation does give reason to be able to build multiple.

That's a good argument. I'm not sure if I ever needed to switch between 2 of them, but your playstyle may be different. That also gives them a reason to be turned off by automation, since I couldn't think of a scenario when I ever want to do that.

3 hours ago, Unfawkable said:

And I wasn't able to find a satisfying mod that makes diseases more challenging either.

Try "Diseases Restored" https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1911357229

1 hour ago, Unfawkable said:

The problem with this isn't necessarily the difficulty of doing it or even obtaining Steel to do it, it's the sheer amount of time it took to manually build. It delays launching anything by 20-30 cycles for sure until you get everything setup, and that's a big chunk of time to do something that's supposed to be basic in Spaced Out since its main theme is being involved into launching rockets more often and earlier.

Yeah, exactly. In my game, I had an asteroid with very small amounts of iron ore and to make meteor defences I had to wait for my volcano to erupt. But it was never enough and it took me around 200 cycles from reaching the surface to launching my first rocket. Very not fun... 

Also - "just make steel and bunker doors" is a bad argument, since KLEI clearly wants us to have access to space before steel production. Forget about steel, in this scenario you don't have access to it. Meteors with this tech level would be soooo baaaad for the game...

But yes, solar panels could use some balance. My most favorite idea I saw on this forum was to introduce dust storms that do not damage buildings but make panels dirty and require duplicants to clear them before they can generate power again. They also provide some sand in the process. This doesn't kill early rockets, but makes panels much less OP. Locking this tech behind nuclear research is another good idea, but it requires some number tweaking not to make it just from space radiation.

[Unfawkable]

14 minutes ago, pether said:

Try "Diseases Restored" https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1911357229

Oh wow, thanks for this one, I don't know how I missed it. Guess I didn't play before Spaced Out for longer than I thought. Hope it's not buggy with Spaced Out since it hasn't been updated in a while.

14 minutes ago, pether said:

But yes, solar panels could use some balance. My most favorite idea I saw on this forum was to introduce dust storms that do not damage buildings but make panels dirty and require duplicants to clear them before they can generate power again. They also provide some sand in the process. This doesn't kill early rockets, but makes panels much less OP. Locking this tech behind nuclear research is another good idea, but it requires some number tweaking not to make it just from space radiation.

Dust storms only can work if they are very frequent, but I'd much rather just see them nerfed all around, power output mainly but hopefully making them wider as well so you can't spam as many of them. I always found solar panels to be OP even in the base game even with all the bunker door shenanigans.

[catrue]

 

Personally, I am more interested in the modification of the rocket ports. And filters on the main rocket platform, as written in the description. And also the balancing of the planetoids, since three volcanoes of the same metal are not needed, different funnels, like vanilla, would be much more practical

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by catrue

[mfd]

Just wait for harder clusters, ONI professionals.
Fullerene comet has already been implemented and you can spawn it in sandbox mode.
It is not hard to imagine that some of upcoming clusters have no natural graphite and we have to gather fullerene from meteor showers.
I also expect the starting planetoid of Oasisse cluster to have neither water based geyser nor teleporter, and the other planetoids to have meteor showers.

IMHO, Spaced Out would be interesting to be challenging in a different aspect from the base game.
Building interplanetary logistics is interesting and challenging enough even if there is no meteor shower, that's why I disagree with reintroduction of it to the starting planetoids of "Ideal" Terra and Swamp cluster.

From this point of view, the low launch cost of Interplanetary Launcher is far more problematic than early-game solar panels.
There were a lot of challenges to overcome; production and transportation of fuel, rocket interior design and survivability, module limit, automation of rocket ports and platform, etc.
Teleporter is OK because it connects only two planetoids, but building Interplanetary Launcher network is too easy compared to the challenges listed above.

[Unfawkable]

39 minutes ago, mfd said:

From this point of view, the low launch cost of Interplanetary Launcher is far more problematic than early-game solar panels.
There were a lot of challenges to overcome; production and transportation of fuel, rocket interior design and survivability, module limit, automation of rocket ports and platform, etc.
Teleporter is OK because it connects only two planetoids, but building Interplanetary Launcher network is too easy compared to the challenges listed above.

I haven't yet tried the interplanetary launcher, but you do make a good point. Think it should have at least a range limit, as well as some additional cost. A higher power cost like the transit tube system comes to mind, where you can store like 100.000 Kj and have it cost 50.000 per launch. Or make each launch pod cost an exotic metal like Steel, or Tungsten (Which would not be recoverable on the destination by deconstruction)

[TeDeum]

17 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Now, the Regolith storms of the past may or may not be the solution (I found them a bit tedious), but I expect there will be one.

Another one is to decrease illumination in space biom or nerf solar panel power output.

[sakura_sk]

29 minutes ago, Unfawkable said:

A higher power cost like the transit tube system comes to mind, where you can store like 100.000 Kj and have it cost 50.000 per launch.

You are suggesting 50.000kj per 200kg launch..? Why even launch it if you could transport ∞ kg (solids easily, liquids and gases with a bit more built) with a simple CO2 or steam rocket? 

I would suggest to be more tweaks to that 200kg. Currently, if it is referred to gas or food it is too much but if it is referred to solid or liquid it is insignificant. Although any of that costs the same and it only depends on distance.

[goboking]

9 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I think people were just overly intimidated by meteors because it's not hard at all. You just build a ladder straight up to the top of the map then put bunker doors across as far as you need to use and repeat until you've covered the top of the map.

You just made my case against meteors for me.  It's not hard to build bunkers across the surface, but it is an exercise in tedium.  It's just not an interesting problem to solve for, in my humble opinion.

 

4 hours ago, TeDeum said:

Another one is to decrease illumination in space biom or nerf solar panel power output.

The easiest nerf is it disable them if there's anything above any part of the solar panel, meaning stacking panels is no longer viable.

[gl.Violett]

On 3/31/2021 at 8:56 PM, maurojunior2011 said:

Instead of facilitating, couldn't they complicate?

The sun generates 25 radiation, it is almost one launch per day ... For a planet that is on the side and already has teleportation of duplicates and materials.

Power generation is so simple that it is not even a challenge in the game and still put the launcher to spend only 240W? ....

Don't get me wrong, but who is developing this DLC, is really playing the game and exploring all its mechanics? ... because there are many things that make the game extremely easier and easier ...

Totally agree. For example, I believe Solar Batteries should be nerfed hard - these are easy to build early and generate tons of energy.

Dont make this game easy pls :)

Also cant wait for more challenging starting asteroids like it have been in Vanilla ONI