Terra vs Swamp - starting cluster comparison

[sakura_sk]

Maybe I should wait a little longer to make a "vs" starting biome topic (until there would be no more changes..) but they seem solid enough.

At first glance terra seems horrible. I had a @babba reaction when Starting Terra map was first introduced but then I started playing...

I originally investigated the food aspect (before even the "hot! hot! hot!" one) because it seemed like swamp had more variety.

I didn't find any big differences though.

Spoiler

 

 

*Comparing what crops are found in every planet (planetoid/asteroid/moonlet.... whatever..  )

Cooking needed 0 - micromusher

Cooking needed 1 - grill

Cooking needed 2 - gas range

 After playing some more, I concluded swamp is more difficult because:

• Everything collapse...
• It has only one farmed crop while terra has two (also needs hydroponic farm to reduce dupe labor and map is too cold at first for grupfruit).
• There isn't much dirt for research (until you dig space biome)
• Polluted oxygen apart from "yucky lungs" debuff it also makes it difficult to have a CO2 pit (don't know why... ). Only when I put deodorizers on top the CO2 pit I could stabilize it.
• And of course, no source of reed fiber.

 

Terra's disadvantage of heat is solved easily using insulated tiles around base (leaving geysers for later..) and you can have ready-to-use water for O2 production when geysers are finally dormant without any other filtration systems (although bristle blossoms wouldn't like that water..). Farming mealwood lasts long enough and the problem later on is frost not heat...

Spoiler

*I usually don't expand too quickly and in both Terra and Swamp I had to insulate most of the base to maintain ~10-30 C temperature for crops

Comparing inner cluster planets, terra is easier because:

Planet 2 (rocket)

• Bigger Ocean biome, having more wild waterweed

Planet 3 (teleport)

• No magma
• Usually has ice biomes that don't melt by geyser's  -10C liquids, having many wild crops growing

Spoiler

 

So ...yes. I still prefer Terra and find it an easier starting cluster  (I still play swamp now and then though...)

[babba]

I find Terra hell - Too hot with the 2x 110 Celsius water and only volcanoes in it. Played it 20 hours recently again... for me the Swampy is nice and easy, as its cold with -10 Celsius water supply. Yeah, for me the Baal thread issues have sadly remained the same.

I do love the 2nd deck oil biome mega lots on Terra my dear friend. It would be so great to have a minus Celsius geyser in the dlc Terra In the first few minutes of Swampy I have instant access to tons of ice, it cools me down + its a cold starter world in general !

I find playing on Terra with 20-200 dupes hard, whereas the same play style is a easy cakewalk for me with Swampy as the starter world.

I do hope Klei comes up with new world generation ( settings ) in 2 weeks.

---------------------------

Updated - Swamp screenshots # 10 minutes in to the game

Cycle 5 # -10 Celsius 2x geysirs, one at the top and one at the bottom.

IMHO this is more how Terra should be. As posted in the Baal thread back then, the level is rather too cold, one has to undertake efforts to heat up the base as its freezing ice cold. If one excavates the whole map it still will be balanced temperatures, one can play this map without insulating anything ( IMHO temperature wise too easy ).

Of course I agree with the other points you have mentioned in your post @sakura_sk , but for me a "level" ( Terra`s intital first map ) stands and falls with a balanced temperature level. Klei has mentioned that Terra should be the easiest choice for players - Which IMHO should include balanced temperature map levels. Some zones IMHO should be hot, but others therefore should be cold. Renewables should provide a balanced temperature output for players ( a mix of hot and cold ones ).

I guess Klei`s thinking was that players shall fetch stuff from other asteroids to balance temperatures out - I disagree with this approach ( until I reached mid and endgame ). I want a base "headquarter level" which provides me with tons of renewable resources so that I can then enjoy exploring space. I like to build thousands of cycles on my base ( not on a tiny map ), often before I start exploring elsewhere. For me this ( was ) the magic formula of the base game.

Touch wood on future Klei patches

[noaIV]

given a choice between water i need to move to warm up a bit before running it through machines or needing a major cooling system just so i don't cook the base i will go with the swamp start

[Carcer_]

You can get dirt from mud in the salad spinner thing I can't currently recall the name of. No need to go to space. Though downside is extra dupe labour.

Heating for grubfruits I put a ranch of wild slugs fillef with batteries underneath and power a couple of deoderisers letting the batteries produce heat (not bothered about getting a lot of power from them just having the batteries heat up).  If I need heat a little faster desalination of brine produces 40C water though this requires a little research. The biomes with grubfruits tend to be hot enough to start growing there and move later.

 

I like swamp start but each to their own I suppose. Lack of reed fibre and easy plastic shook me out my comfort zone a bit which was nice for me.

[RageLeague]

On Terra, I find that it is very easy to set up mixed berry recipe. You can easily set up a bristle berry farm early, then start develop some grubfruit at room temperature in a sweetle ranch, and find a bunch of sleet wheat grains in the wild. Mixed berry pie is really good because it has high quality and is very calorie dense, so you can carry a lot more calories during space travel. Not sure about the swamp set up.

[Sasza22]

I had similar observations. Terra allows for faster base building as you don`t have to worry about all the water and mud collapsing on you. Generally it has all you need for early game. It gives you alternate options to the hot water (warm polluted from the slime biome) so you have enough time to graduatly get to cooling stuff. But you can easily screw yourself if you start pumping geyser water through your base which might be painful for newbies.

Swamp doesn`t have a temperature problem unless we count it getting too cold at times. Water is abundant and you don`t lack resources early on except dirt that needs tons of compost. But it feels dirty, you get multiple debuffs (yucky lungs, eye irritation, hypothermia). Newbies will have a lot of problems with base layout and might overreact to hypothermia notices. It`s also likely they`ll get their water reserves contaminated. For them it might be more difficult but for different reasons.

[The Plum Gate]

Having to go with radiant heating via the metal refinery and continuously circulating brine. Even with the insulation it's tough because all the O2 is being produced from icey polluted water - and good grief is there a lot of cold polluted oxygen on this swampy start.

I just moved my farms to the hotter biomes and have them off to the lower right - it was just easier. I feel I could confidently farm any cold loving plants on this map, no problems. THe farms are part of a nature reserve, so there's that, I don't bother with the farm station, there's just no point, I have plenty of food and grub grubs and sweetles and a ton of pacu. I'll probably use this seed again later, I like cold challenges makes dealing with all the machinery easier and more useful.

[minespatch]

Swamp gives me way more oxygen earlier and I can't be seperated from my plugslugs, they're too precious.

[noaIV]

temperature for swamp can be got around depending on just where it dumps the geysers other then that it just a matter of taking notice of where those stupid valcono are and not digging into them

[MachineryMan]

Lets face it, only newguys will meet some problems with starter asteroids. Mostly related to the fact that the temperature breaks the boundaries of the biome faster, because there are almost no natural barriers and because of the reduction of the asteroids (compared to Vanilla). 

I think Terra should have easy access to water (a geyser of cold pure water would be optimal) and the problem of temperature leakage should be solved. This way it will be easier for newcomers to adapt to the game. There's basically nothing else that needs to be changed there. It's supposed to be simple.

As for the swamp, my radical opinion is that saltwater geyser should be removed at the very least and replaced by various hot water sources. There should probably be two, but one of them is located on an asteroid with a teleporter. The worm should be nerfed, for example by some special conditions of keeping and domestication, after which it can start pollinating plants. But domestication should not increase the worm's egg-laying rate (organizing worm population control, the task of which is to pollinate, is too much). Or beetles must be nerfed, they must not be able to pollinate and worm eggs must be obtained only by domestication of the beetle and special feeding (not with sulfur or sugar). Because at this point getting +3 food is even easier than it used to be with meat farms. The inconveniences associated with grubfruit in the form of a low weight/calorie ratio and low freshness period of the fruit doesn't work because no one keeps food in refrigerators and no one will let the fruit lie around for 2 cycles and rot.

For the advanced player both asteroids are quite simple. I still don't understand why they put two cold geysers on the swamps. 
The problem with food is solved almost immediately with the help of grubfruit, bugs and worms, both there and here.
On Terra, there are also Meelwood, Dreko and Hatches (if you prefer meat), no need to think at all. You just cover yourself with insulation and sit there until you get bored.

[babba]

5 hours ago, MachineryMan said:

For the advanced player both asteroids are quite simple. I still don't understand why they put two cold geysers on the swamps. 

...

From my point of view it does not make sense to give one asteroid 2x ice cold geysers and the other asteroid 2x super hot geysers, with the intention of having those two as the easiest worlds for players.

IMHO its not temperature balanced on either of those "Easy" worlds.

If those two asteroids shall be the easiest for players and if Klei would balance future hard difficulty starter asteroids in a similar way it would be 8x super hot on one asteroid and 8x super cold in different starter world. Players tend to enjoy building their solutions to level map temperatures out - With a given mix of temperature sources. It is usually the mix of temperature sources which gives the game variation, the temperature variety players like to "solve" and "combine".

When I want to build a big base on a big maps with lots of dupes, then I personally don`t want to start in a world which gives me 10000 Celsius by default. I personally tend to choose a balanced temperature or rather cold map as I want to have the joy to later create the 1 million Celsius with 20 reactors in that big map myself - Once I made everything "safe" beforehand ( or not )

It is nice that one can venture out to space early, if desired...However, for me it is not an excuse to not temperature balance out renewable sources on a starter planet which shall carry the classification tag "Easy".

World generation settings ( frozen core, resource rich etc. ), lots of renewable sources in a big starter map, regolith, radiation + optional new endgame threats - I am waiting Klei. You added nice things in the DLC, but for me you took so much from the base game. I would like to have my game back, many thanks Klei.

[MachineryMan]

10 minutes ago, babba said:

From my point of view it does not make sense to give one asteroid 2x ice cold geysers and the other asteroid 2x super hot geysers, with the intention of having those two as the easiest worlds for players.

Perhaps balancing biomes and asteroids doesn't make much sense at this point, until all the DLC's ideas are realized. I have no idea how the developer will solve the problem of heat spreading in the future, in the starting empty hot worlds for example. Like, it makes no difference what geysers you have, if in 30 cycles on the border of the starting biome you can fry meat without grilling. Perhaps that's why we don't see such worlds yet. The current solutions of temperature control with heaters, a pipeline with a pump, and a boiling pot in a puddle of water are quite problematic to implement in the early stages of the game. Even assuming that there will be the same free solar power as now. Starting on a cold asteroid was quite difficult even in vanilla, as I remember. I'd play it, but everyone here is rooting for the newbies. 

[babba]

From my point of view Klei only needs to replace 1 of the Terra 110 Celsius geysers with a -10 Celsius one. That should only take 1 minute and would be fine for now. @Ipsquiggle

It would make a certain amount of players very happy, including me. I am waiting for this small change effort/big outcome improvement since 3 months now.

Also one of the cold geysers in Swamp could be replaced with a hot one, as it is in general too cold.

[MachineryMan]

14 minutes ago, babba said:

From my point of view Klei only needs to replace 1 of the Terra 110 Celsius geysers with a -10 Celsius one. That should only take 1 minute and would be fine for now

Honestly, I'm fine with it. I don't have enough complexity at all. It's even more fun that way. The thing is, from a certain point, the game is over and the fat-building phase begins. You start building oil and gas boilers on volcanoes, planting fields and meadows to make some juicy burger, "let me build 200 rockets and automate them," "let me make a super complicated scheme, that will grow me beans", "let me get a hundred special cats to make a nice garden or even a forest", "Why don't I pump all the lava out of the core and turn it into electricity?"...

In short, a meaningless things. Something that doesn't really solve any problems. It's good that the game has the ability to do all this, but for what?

The main problem with the game isn't in the early stages, it's just all fun and groovy. The main problem is the late phase, when all the problems are solved with the ATMO suit and aquatuner, and there are no real challenges. I play on max difficulty usually (except for food consumption, I hate building dozens of farms, too boring), but it ups the difficulty early in the game. From a certain stage you no longer care what difficulty settings you put up, everything goes smoothly and without problems.

You might think I'm trying to show off, but come on, its not like we're playing Dota here. Of course, the DLC is much better than Vanilla gives you challenges. I hope it will continue to be so. I keep thinking about what to suggest to introduce, while there is a real possibility that the developer will hear, but so far only nonsense comes to mind. And stupidly sit and whine on the forum (as I do now), I do not want to be like that.

[babba]

I find that an "Easy" asteroid should be an easy start for the majority of players, regardless at which stage of development the dlc is.

If Klei would perform my simple suggested geyser change than far more players could much earlier be able to have a non-hostile world start on Terra. For me Terra starts too hot and Swamp to cold and its like that since 3 months now. Its a simple change Klei could perform with a finger snap.

Such performed change does not provide new content for advanced players, nor does it bring back big map requests from players or (for now) cut content like regolith or the 3/4 year awaited dlc radation content.

The forum is a great place for players to mention what they want and what they expect from the game.

"Babba & the Machinery Man" playing together in ONi multiplayer, would you like that

[sakura_sk]

7 minutes ago, babba said:

Its a simple change Klei could perform with a finger snap.

I would say there is no "simple" change in a game like ONI but I also don't know anything about coding...  

[babba]

8 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I would say there is no "simple" change in a game like ONI but I also don't know anything about coding...  

Replacing the 110 Celsius Terra geysers with a -10 Celsius one and doing a similar geyser swap on Swamp is no work at all. I assume Klei does not care much because they want to present proper implemented world generation settings for maps, the question is for me...Will that be weeks away or in Summer, Autumn or Winter ?

I tell you, when the world generation settings ( and more starter worlds ) are here I will get the Vodka out - Until then, please implement this tiny change request Klei.

[sakura_sk]

I think geysers are set as POI. That is why IMO it's not simple. Cool steam vents are linked with caustic and marsh biome and probably cool slush/salt linked with tundra. In some early swamp starts (before terra) it would spawn only one of the two cold geysers (later patches fixed that). So it would probably crash terra before it stabilizes again..?

[babba]

Lets fall back to a classic when there is no hope, whataboutism: Combustion > Explosions> Spreading fires in the game

[noaIV]

just be happy we can't catch stuff on fire with the amount of pure o2 in bases

[greywizard]

Is it really difficult for people to set up a basic heatsink and pH2O loop early game? Terra start isn't difficult in any way. You get an entire biome of -50c to -70c copper and ice. In addition, unless you get really unlucky with biome blending, temperatures on Terra are mild until you get to the lava biome. In my latest fresh-start even the barren biome's max temp is 75c. That means you only have to deal with a couple of cool steam vents and the lava biome. 

 

[AndreyKl]

55 minutes ago, greywizard said:

You get an entire biome of -50c to -70c copper and ice.

That biome is way too far for player not familiar with the game.

With how small asteroid is, new players will have a lot less time to learn managing heat. Won't know to block two 110C vents, won't know to look for ice e t c. In non-DLC game there usually is a decent distance between starting point and any vents, so vents don't affect player that much. Plus there are a lot more ice to compensate, ice that is closer than vents. Terra having surface ice is nice but it won't help new players adjust.

DLC definitely needs a simpler start.

P.S. Personally I don't see much of an issue with managing heat. It does make game a bit more complicated early on, but hardly unmanageable. Vacuum based insulation is as effective as everywhere else.

[babba]

FYI another fresh Swamp restart screenie, played ~10 minutes on fast forward.

Sooooo much wonderful ice at game start + AETN and icy geysers nearby

Swamp initial yield after total ~15 minutes digging at fast forward speed

[minespatch]

3 minutes ago, babba said:

Sooooo much wonderful ice at game start

Feels like a combo of Terra and Rime.

[The Plum Gate]

..I can't believe there's a gassy moo planet.

I am hoping they come up with a way to regenerate a planetoid if you haven't visited it yet - sort of like doing a partial world gen.

This would make introducing anomalous planetoids or moonlets something like an interstellar phenomenon where you can abandon a colonial outpost that's leaving the map and start a new world with existing infrastructure. 

...calving a colony off to a new map.

There could be generations!