Science is too simple

[acidboy]

This topic is not really specific to Spaced Out but...  (and sorry if this has been discussed before)

The Tech Tree Getting Blocked is Good

We need more monkey wrenches in the tech tree.  One of the best monkey wrenches (in the base game) is being unable to research advanced space stuff until after you can collect data banks -- which necessarily requires space missions.  This happens to be a really fun mechanic as it prevents you from just researching everything nonstop without any consequences or consideration (aside from dirt, water, and dup time: meh)

I think it would add a lot of fun to Research if certain technologies were blocked for various reasons.  Some possible examples:

• You can't research a steam turbine until you've encountered steam
• You can't research solar panels until you've encountered sunlight
• You can't research deoderizers until you've encountered polluted oxygen.
• You can't research polymer press until you've encountered petroleum
• You can't research natural gas generator until you've encountered natural gas.
• You can't research oil refinery until you've encountered oil.

A lot of these suggestions require more granular research -- i.e. you unlock a category (such as superheated forging) but still have to research individual tech separately (bunker doors, molecular forge, etc.).  The category would be expensive (in terms of research) but the individual tech would be relatively cheap -- however, individual tech might have unique prerequisites.

I think this would make research more dynamic and reactive to what you're doing instead of as it is today, which seems like a simplistic flow chart of just researching everything you can and mostly turning off your brain.  Also, I think it's just more fun to require that you've actually encountered a challenge (such as steam) before you can research solutions.

Curious what others think?  (Or if this is an old topic, please release your shame )
 

[Sasza22]

Main gripe i have with it is that the super computer can be build right away and uses a basic resource just like the basic research station. We get access to all the tech until space with just those two. From the leaked stuff it seems we will get a nuclear tech station in the dlc as well. But it doesn`t fix the core issue. We can progress easily until we hit a wall lategame that we can pass only after getting some advanced stuff going. There is no midgame tech unlock. The basic tech stations carry you through plastic, glass and steel.

I suggested it before to make a mid tier station requiring crude oil. Oil has only one use which is refining it to petrol. Make it a resource for a mid tier tech station unlocking the fossil fuel level tech (lets say 2 tiers above the super computer). This would smoothen the science transitions and make it feel like you are progressing.

I`m not a fan of requiring certain resources to unlock research. Feels like people will find a way to cheat the requirements with some weird builds.

[DarkMaster13]

I agree science needs work.  The points I bring up every time this happens:

• Dupes standing around to do research is boring and not fun.  If a fully dedicated science dupe spent at most 10% of their time standing at a research station, I'd be a lot happier.
• Science could be made a lot better if we needed to build production lines to support it.
• Science could be made a lot better if you had to explore the map and find resources or research items from PoIs.
• At the moment the only good part about science is managing the water supply.  I wouldn't mind if that was moved over to basic research, but everything else required one of the above.
• Science should be something we have to build towards, build around, or involve more than just waiting.

[zach123b]

research is simple as it is but imo the game isn't meant to be production line research.  it is annoying having to wait for science to finish before you can do some basic stuff.  but to me, the game is centered around building a base, sustainability, and contraptions.  i don't want to have to spend 300 cycles to unlock everything. and tbh, science has no endgame, it's just done when it's done

there will be more science to be done once they add nuclear stuff though.  and people have leaked art from digging into the game code that shows we'll get some cool end game buildings like a temporal tear opener or something and a railgun for moving material between asteroids to name a couple

[KittenIsAGeek]

14 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

the super computer can be build right away and uses a basic resource just like the basic research station.

True, but you must also remember that it uses water.  This makes higher end research difficult on some worlds, where water is scarce, until you get to the point that you can produce a lot of extra water.

7 hours ago, zach123b said:

it is annoying having to wait for science to finish before you can do some basic stuff.

It is, but its happened to all of us at some point.  For example on my slimeball world I'm currently developing, I had to wait many times on research because I ran out of dirt.  However, this means that we have to balance our researching with our base development.  We must decide which research is important enough to dedicate a dupe to spending the time researching it.

7 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

I agree science needs work.  The points I bring up every time this happens:

• Dupes standing around to do research is boring and not fun.  If a fully dedicated science dupe spent at most 10% of their time standing at a research station, I'd be a lot happier.
• Science could be made a lot better if we needed to build production lines to support it.
• Science could be made a lot better if you had to explore the map and find resources or research items from PoIs.
• At the moment the only good part about science is managing the water supply.  I wouldn't mind if that was moved over to basic research, but everything else required one of the above.
• Science should be something we have to build towards, build around, or involve more than just waiting.

This is an interesting idea, but I'm not certain how it would make things better.  Your ideas sound like they would make research more frustrating.  As it currently stands, Research is balanced with Dupe Work Time and Available Water.  While researching, your dupe isn't available to do other base maintenance stuff, such as harvesting food.  If you reduce the amount of time that a dupe stands at a research station, then you will have no problems completing other base tasks, so there will be no reason to not simply binge out on research.  Frequently I've found that I have to wait before doing more research because I need to get caught up on basic base stuff first.  This makes me stop and think about which research I really need next.

If you add in mechanics like requiring stuff from POIs, then you're adding even more frustration to the process.  On many of my bases, I have only sought out POIs after I have my base fairly stabilized.  On some worlds, there aren't even any POIs close to the starting biome, and many of them are behind abyssalite -- meaning you would have to have a skilled digging dupe before you could do any research.  This would result in a much slower base development.  For example, if you couldn't research fossil fuels or ranching before getting into a POI, it would cripple many bases.

You mention in your last line that "Science should be something we have to build towards, build around, or involve more than just waiting."  The "just waiting" right now IS the mechanic that lets you 'build towards, build around, or involve.'  Your dupe is involved in the process of researching, so can't do other things.  You have to build around some problems because the research isn't fully developed at that point.  You're also building toward researching because in order to get more research done, you either need more dupe power or a base that is better at running itself.

However, I do think that the dupes should be able to get SOME benefit from the old computers in various POIs.  Maybe a dupe spending time at a POI computer could do a random amount of progress on research -- 30 or 40 units -- without having to use water.  Or perhaps they could find documents that instantly provides some research towards a given subject. "Oh, hey, here's a reference to logic gates.  Cool! Now I only have to spend half the time researching them."

[Rainbowdesign]

17 hours ago, acidboy said:

 

I think it would add a lot of fun to Research if certain technologies were blocked for various reasons.  Some possible examples:

I concur with you and i think it is possible with mods to lock a research and it may be possible at some point to check for events.

 

17 hours ago, acidboy said:

You can't research a steam turbine until you've encountered steam

here i certainly think different. All your examples make little real world sense because it makes no difference in the end its just annoying and i would say i hope klei does not add more blockers, it is annoying enough that you cannot build buildings if the resources are not registered.

 

If would lock techs with those examples:

Locked until you discovered a certain planet.

Locked until you found a certain item.

Now you see that is where its getting tricky, that stuff has to be in game too and there must be a way to register if it was found.

 

If its only about locking, i can add that easily to lua so it can be used in a lua script. Locking and unlocking a building is already in it.

[TripleM999]

33 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

However, I do think that the dupes should be able to get SOME benefit from the old computers in various POIs.  Maybe a dupe spending time at a POI computer could do a random amount of progress on research -- 30 or 40 units -- without having to use water.  Or perhaps they could find documents that instantly provides some research towards a given subject. "Oh, hey, here's a reference to logic gates.  Cool! Now I only have to spend half the time researching them."

This sounds intriguing. Giving out points, basic or advanced, along a research line, for instance plumbing or automation, for a specific or the lowest nonresearched tech, maybe random, maybe POI-specific. It could also gift complete topics/techs up to the point, that it says: "We didn't learned anything new" for topics already researched.

This way the developers even could help with research, which they deem necessary for a given map. (like maybe the sludge press)

[blash365]

Your concept sounds good at first but it has a couple of fundamental problems:

1. You want to lock certain techs behind encountering things such as elements. That sounds good, but the tech tree is not structured that way. You do not have all oil tech in one tree. They are spread over the entire width of it, often grouped with other techs. So what would be solution? Split everything into its own very narrow subtree? What about overlaps? This would remove the remainder of the already hard to grasp logical structure of the tech tree.
2. How do you encounter an element? Be on the same planet, be close to it? Be able to see it? Touch it? Store it? Produce it? Probably you will need different rules for different elements. And then you will still end up with situations where e.g. a shine nymph unlocks your solar tech because the game just checks for light and not the lights source. Why overcomplicate it?
3. The tech tree currently functions as stepping stones for the player. The player can directly see which technologies he can access easily (left-most) or are far from reach (right-most). The different tech resources simply add a vertical line which tiers the research by very easy rules. Adding extra rules would make it more complicated for players to know where to go next. Especially if you hide technologies before they are "unlocked", which would be more immersive, but an absolute hell for unexperienced players.
4. There are two kinds of discoveries in the world. Your system only allows the first of the two.
   1. You have an element and you wonder how to make use of it, then you search the tech tree for something fitting, research it and then build it.
   2. You have a specific need (e.g. oxygen) that you want to fulfill. You search the tech tree for a suitable technology. Then you make a judgement call which technology is best used in the current scenarion (depending on resources and other factors), for some of these resources you might even do expeditions to be able to use that technology, finally you research and employ it.
5. It does not allow the player to plan ahead. Imagine seeing an petroleum volcano at the edge of the screen. Still you cannot research the petroleum engine, because you havent touched the element yet. Very frustrating and an unncessary loss of game time.
6. You are barred from using the technology *anyway*. You can already research stuff, but without the elements required, you wont be able to use or in some cases even build it. So why do you need a second showstopper?

 

Having said that, i like what the other posters said that researching could be more interactive with the world. But given some of the quirkiness of dupe ai, i might regret this at some point, should it be implemented.

[DarkMaster13]

3 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

This is an interesting idea, but I'm not certain how it would make things better.  Your ideas sound like they would make research more frustrating.  As it currently stands, Research is balanced with Dupe Work Time and Available Water.  While researching, your dupe isn't available to do other base maintenance stuff, such as harvesting food.  If you reduce the amount of time that a dupe stands at a research station, then you will have no problems completing other base tasks, so there will be no reason to not simply binge out on research.  Frequently I've found that I have to wait before doing more research because I need to get caught up on basic base stuff first.  This makes me stop and think about which research I really need next.

If you add in mechanics like requiring stuff from POIs, then you're adding even more frustration to the process.  On many of my bases, I have only sought out POIs after I have my base fairly stabilized.  On some worlds, there aren't even any POIs close to the starting biome, and many of them are behind abyssalite -- meaning you would have to have a skilled digging dupe before you could do any research.  This would result in a much slower base development.  For example, if you couldn't research fossil fuels or ranching before getting into a POI, it would cripple many bases.

You mention in your last line that "Science should be something we have to build towards, build around, or involve more than just waiting."  The "just waiting" right now IS the mechanic that lets you 'build towards, build around, or involve.'  Your dupe is involved in the process of researching, so can't do other things.  You have to build around some problems because the research isn't fully developed at that point.  You're also building toward researching because in order to get more research done, you either need more dupe power or a base that is better at running itself.

However, I do think that the dupes should be able to get SOME benefit from the old computers in various POIs.  Maybe a dupe spending time at a POI computer could do a random amount of progress on research -- 30 or 40 units -- without having to use water.  Or perhaps they could find documents that instantly provides some research towards a given subject. "Oh, hey, here's a reference to logic gates.  Cool! Now I only have to spend half the time researching them."

I wouldn't judge my ideas solely on the current resource balance and consumption mechanics.  If you're changing research this much, then you should certainly do a pass on how much is used at a time and the order you do things in.

That is exactly why I don't like having a dupe unable to do anything but research.  So long as research is only about having a dupe stand in place and consume common resources, it isn't fun or interesting.  If there were at least some inputs/outputs gases/liquids to worry about, high power demands, or a wide variety of input resources then it would at least be comparable to cooking or machinery work.  If production lines or data vaults were what limited research, then there'd be no way to have a dupe spend double time on research if it takes half the time to consume those resources for a high science dupe.  The dedicated science dupe stops working on science because they ran out of resources to consume in half the time.  Scaling up research then is roughly about scaling up everything in your base to twice the size, not just the research.

I also want to clarify that if you have to find research points in PoIs, then this doesn't stall research as it forces the player to pick what they want to research now and what they want to research later.  It also gives a much better incentive to go out and explore more worlds if you need to go to them to find the research points, since there's no way to simply wait around for those points to accumulate.  Also, very important to note that anything that would be tied to PoIs would be late game tech that's not essential for a base to function.  Also not things that are needed to get more of this research.  Examples are jetpacks, skill boosting entertainment, shipping, powerful decorations, and late automation.

A dupe being needed for research isn't a bad cost for the first dozen or two cycles.  Same with water.  But then you reach a tipping point where that's no longer the case and it is just a waiting game with little cost or risk involved.

[TheMule]

 

On 1/15/2021 at 7:12 AM, DarkMaster13 said:

• Dupes standing around to do research is boring and not fun.  If a fully dedicated science dupe spent at most 10% of their time standing at a research station, I'd be a lot happier.

Then don't do it. I never have a fully dedicated researcher.

 

[goboking]

We might want to wait until we see what nuclear research looks like before we call for a total overhaul of the research system.

[chemie]

current implementation is another example of a placeholder becoming lost and forgotten by Klei

[Sasza22]

On 1/15/2021 at 3:39 PM, KittenIsAGeek said:

True, but you must also remember that it uses water.  This makes higher end research difficult on some worlds, where water is scarce, until you get to the point that you can produce a lot of extra water.

I`d prefer if the basic research table used water instead of dirt since it`s already available since the start and the super computer used something not available in the starting biome so you`d have to explore a bit before progressing. Something like phosphorite since that seems to be on every starting world.

[Occam Blazer]

On 1/14/2021 at 4:45 PM, acidboy said:

This happens to be a really fun mechanic

I dislike this mechanic. Space is the worst minigame in base imo. The DLC makes it much better.

[JoelleEmmily]

I find progression systems to be the second least fun of any game I have ever played... it's just a hassle. If the tree were completely unlocked at the very start of the game, you would still need to build support systems to create the resources for the more complex producers. Rock crushers are simple and produce small amount of refined metal, but are required to build a refinery, a refinery outputs a lot of metal, but vomit out excess heat like crazy... And it's not like research has ever shaped my game play, I just find it a moderate inconvenience. Typically, I spend the first cycles setting up the base to keep my dupes alive nearly indefinitely, then I spam research... if I needed research points from PIOs, I'd just strip the map, which I do anyway. If devs then decide to hindered skill point accumulation to slow mining progression to force more strategic research choices, you kinda self identified the flaw... hindering, slowing, and forcing, aren't play mechanics, they're false dichotomies designed to artificially inflate gameplay. Uranium being on another planet, is an example of a real progression system(unless they decide to spawn it on your starting world), it requires you to develop all the support systems needed to refine metal, fuel, map the stars, build a rocket, and plan an expedition. It's relies on a player's skills and ability to problem solve... Two dups standing at "research" props, is littler more than trading time for access; likewise, having to search around for POIs to unlock point or branches on tech tree, is basically rolling dice until you land on the right number.

Let's evaluate both progression systems next to a game that, in my opinion, does progression really well. Super Metroid. In the very beginning of the game, you can do little more than jump and shoot. Once you've mastered those abilities to some degree, you're put in front of an obstacle... not the Chozo mech, a one cell high space in a wall Samus cannot get through. The solution isn't too far away, the morph ball. When you solve that obstacle you need missiles to open a door; then the bomb ball to knock out a block to continue further. In the first few minutes, most of the time before you've even fought your second enemy, the game has forced you to discover and master several new skills, and solve several new puzzles. That's engaging, building an entire section of your base to deal with waste heat, refining metals and fuels, super cooling hydrogen and oxygen, those or engaging... standing in front of prop or luckily bumping into a POI... is just busy work.

[Hokaeru]

In my opinion, your concern with science does not bother me. We have 3 science stations (even if the third is not in the DLC yet), and are likely to get a fourth one with radioactive particles.
What I think could be improved is some of the paths in science, which I think they are doing at the moment (as we saw with the addition of rocketry skill and corium mining). Some points are very rarely used, and some are really important and you almost always get them.