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Wolfgang does NOT need a nerf


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This post is going to end up making a lot of people who are currently trying there hardest to tell klei to employ more nerfs to the game upset, but if you want something nerfed, there needs to be a practical reason why. Some numbers might seem insane, but also unnecessary to chase after in this thread I will explain why Wolfgang does not need a nerf, but before that I would like to ask you a favor.

You can only leave a reply, if you have read at least all of my major points. I don't know if this favor will make the discussion better, but it I'd really appreciate it regardless.

 

I've seen people say it, you've seen people say it klei even said during there Warly stream that they are going to balance him out

https://www.twitch.tv/kleientertainment/clip/FrigidShortJellyfishChefFrank?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

Contrary to what klei thinks, I think Wolfgang is an extremely fun character to play and I don't think he needs a nerf

To the people who think he needs a nerf because of Warly:

At the very least, making Warly's dishes less effective on him would be a much better compromise then outright nerfing Wolfgang, although it's still not necessary.

Making his dishes not apply to blow darts would be an even better compromise, but it's still not necessary. If Wolfgang is nerfed in such a way where he is reliant on Warly's dishes to output good damage, then that just turns him into wx78, being much worse in solo play, and being bad in multiplayer where there might not even be a Warly

https://youtu.be/xGtoZoJ6Gdo?t=971 This is a clip from Don Giani's channel in it, using a character with just a 1x damage modifier and a few dark swords it took him only 16 minutes to kill bee queen. That's two days, for bee queen's drops that is an incredibly fast kill. I am unable to find a clip where a maximum buffed Wolfgang goes against bee queen, if you can find one please post it but for now let's say he can kill bee queen in 3 minutes.

This sounds pretty crazy but 16 minutes is also a pretty crazy, but balanced time. Considering how the preparations are not really worth it, and there are alternatives to killing bee queen early on (like killing her the normal way as Don Giani did or spamming panflutes), there is no reason to prepare for a 3 minute fight, and considering her drops, a 3 minute and 16 minute difference is not worth considering. 

This method is only viable with multiple people, or during late game, and each of these scenarios cannot apply to the nerfing Wolfgang argument because:

Damage incoming from multiple players is already enough, Warly dishes are just a bonus. Even three Weses are enough because of the armor they are wearing, and considering how 1 player doing 2.25x (the combination of x .75x damage sources) is actually inferior to three Weses or Wendys because you technically only take 1/3 damage from the boss your fighting, since it usually only hits one player at a time. Unless you're fighting an aoe boss which then you can just kite or tank not many bosses have aoe in this game.

In late game you either want to use catapults/on tentacles for bee queen which is vastly more efficient then Warly's dishes and spices.

In my opinion once you consider the early game, alternatives, the lack of merits in killing a boss in 3 minutes. being able to do whatever million damage with blowdarts, jelly and spices during rain is just extremely overated early game and only suited for late game worlds, where not much matters because of how long you spent on the world, how much stuff you'll have and what stuff you'll be able to pull off regardless.

To the people who think he needs a nerf regardless of Warly:

First off, Wolfgang has never ever shown to blast other characters out of the water, he has never broken the game to such a point that would require immediate attention, the illusion of him being broken came when Warly was released, but not only this is a Warly problem, it's not even a problem because I had just explained it too you.

I also want keep this point short since I had already clarified it in the first part, he is not OP in multiplayer games because multiple players, no matter who they are, already do absurd damage.

He is actually one of the best, most fun characters to play in Solo because of the fact that he can kill things quicker, considering how a lot of mobs have increased health in DST, this makes solo play a blast. Soloing raidbosses is a lot less painful to prep and fight, since you need a speed boost to kite Klaus in his second stage, his mighty form covers this and doesn't need to micro-manage a cane, it's a minor but really nice QOL.

It's simply 2x damage. two Wilsons, killing enemies twice as fast. The game isn't even centered around combat. 

There really isn't that much to address here because the white elephant was already clarified to be just a hoax, if you think I need to add something or I am purposefully avoiding to address something, please tell me so I can add it to the thread or in the replies.

Clearing up biases:

I have mentioned it multiple times that the character I play the most often is Maxwell, the almost opposite of Wolfgang. Even with his 75 health, if you have a 25% speed boost, kiting (and killing) the dragonfly as Maxwell is not super difficult. I also play Woodie sometimes too. I do pick Wolfgang often, but my #1 preferred character is Maxwell.

Now I'm going to call out YOUR biases, curious reader. 

There isn't much to call out, I've seen people say they should nerf Wolfgang, out of spite for a specific youtuber, this is clearly not the way to go about it, and I am just reminding you that this is a thread purely about Wolfgang, I couldn't care less about who plays him, you shouldn't either and I expect you not to bring it up here.

Another reminder, I really think the second part could use a bit more work, but I am drawing a blank, I will address as much as possible on what you have to respond with, on Wolfgang not needing a nerf.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I just want to see what the devs do to Wolfgang at all. Sometimes they do left turn things.

when I say nerfs I really mean nerfs to his combat, health and movement, perhaps hunger too.

when they made shadow creatures unable to be unloaded, (mostly wolfgang and wicker) but wx, walter and wortox already took massive blows.

Maybe making his sanity drain worse at night, but that's just annoying to deal with, I think his current sanity drain is fine right now but lower max sanity works.

I'd argue that he doesn't need a "rework" or at least a wigfrid-like rework but one change I would want to see is him being able to carry statues faster, among other strongman perks theses bonuses would be QOL at most, and I don't think anything should be nerfed because of these additions.

 

10 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the problem with wolfgang was that he was already stupid for single player

Solo DST or DS?

I have already addressed his position in solo and how he's an incredible solo character, and this post is about DST only

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2 minutes ago, Seero said:

when I say nerfs I really mean nerfs to his combat, health and movement, perhaps hunger too.

when they made shadow creatures unable to be unloaded, (mostly wolfgang and wicker) but wx, walter and wortox already took massive blows.

Maybe making his sanity drain worse at night, but that's just annoying to deal with, I think his sanity is fine right now. Lower max sanity works.

I'd argue that he doesn't need a "rework" or at least a wigfrid-like rework but one change I would want to see is him being able to carry statues faster, among other strongman perks theses bonuses would be QOL at most, and I don't think anything should be nerfed because of these additions.

 

Solo DST or DS?

I have already addressed his position in solo and how he's an incredible solo character, and this post is about DST only

single player, reing of giants, where bosses didnt have that amount of health

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5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

single player, reing of giants, where bosses didnt have that amount of health

This is a DST only thread, but I'll address it just for you

WX and Wickerbottom are leagues above Wolfgang, because his damage isn't necessary, in my opinion, the benefits of killing things quicker diminish rapidly, and that's what most of my talking points are surrounding. It's like how wx78's subsequent charges diminish quickly and this effect is multiplied in singleplayer

(Dragonfly can be killed 10x quicker btw)

boss drops can be purchased, and the ancient hulk boss drops are pretty bad, I kill things fast enough already even without an obsidian spear.

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19 minutes ago, Seero said:

WX and Wickerbottom are leagues above Wolfgang, because his damage isn't necessary, in my opinion, the benefits of killing things quicker diminish rapidly, and that's what most of my talking points are surrounding. It's like how wx78's subsequent charges diminish quickly and this effect is multiplied in singleplayer

tell it to people who dies for hound atacks and worm atacks. I already discussed this with you and i wont repeat myself

my commentary was about: if people thinks that wolfg is op in dst then in ds he shouldnt exists

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44 minutes ago, Seero said:

Clearing up biases:

Your own bias is that you've let slip a few times here that you do not believe there should be character balance at all under the simple basis that the opponents are computer-controlled.

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Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

tell it to people who dies for hound atacks and worm atacks. I already discussed this with you and i wont repeat myself

 

hounds in DS can be dealt with a panflute very easily or going inside a house and relogging (You can also purchase tooth traps and hounds teeth)

Sleepy time stories is kinda crap for hounds because of it's long start up time, but on tentacles and elephant cactus works too.

your commentary is 100% correct and our points assist each other since my points hinge on damage being overated 

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2 minutes ago, Seero said:

hounds in DS can be dealt with a panflute very easily or going inside a house and relogging (You can also purchase tooth traps and hounds teeth)

Sleepy time stories is kinda crap for hounds because of it's long start up time, but on tentacles and elephant cactus works too.

your commentary is 100% correct and our points assist each other since my points hinge on damage being overated 

killing with 1 hit because you eat a meat stew>>>wasting pan flautes that cost green gems in dst (the ds was just to say that if klei didnt release that stupid character in ds we will not have this argument now)

i dont care having a character op in this game but he is op and flat, i would prefer a character with deep gameplay like wendy that is so strong but atleast has deep gameplay not just a wilson with all stats buffed and that is what i expect for his rework

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13 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Your own bias is that you've let slip a few times here that you do not believe there should be character balance at all under the simple basis that the opponents are computer-controlled.

These are not computer controlled feats, they are very possible for a human to do.

if you want me to address noobs then the game becomes much more difficult, Wolfgang or Wilson

and if that wasn't enough, his hunger drain is an actual threat to new players and there lack of knowledge will sometimes lead them to become more often mighty then they can handle.

But noobs aren't applicable in a balance argument. As the topic varies a lot, and PART of the definition for a broken character is probably a character who makes the game WAY to easy for a new player, but there are other factors.

if you want to use my damage benefits diminishing argument against me, and say I think something like 10-15x damage is balanced, the point of it was to justify his 2x damage output, not ask for such an insane buff as it only diminishes because in order to do the maximum damage, the steps you need to take to get there is just not worth it in the early/mid game

7 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

killing with 1 hit because you eat a meat stew>>>wasting pan flautes that cost green gems in dst

you can also go in the caves, I forgot to mention

I was talking about DS specifically but for DST you can just lure hounds to beefalo or tentacles, they are really not that hard early game or kite them because in DS you can't animation cancel with attacks but in DST you can which makes kiting a lot easier

it's not OP that you can kill them in 1 hit with a darksword at full mightiness.

7 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont care having a character op in this game but he is op and flat, i would prefer a character with deep gameplay like wendy that is so strong but atleast has deep gameplay not just a wilson with all stats buffed and that is what i expect for his rework

Then he's clearly not for you and at most more strongman-like perks would be assisted

Not every character needs to be like Wendy

7 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the ds was just to say that if klei didnt release that stupid character in ds we will not have this argument now)

he's not stupid he's awesome in DST :(

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1 hour ago, Seero said:

before that I would like to ask you a favor.

You can only leave a reply, if you have read at least all of my major points.

No! I'm replying right now!

Wolfgang doesn't need a nerf because combat isn't that big a part of the game. He's only top tier if you're doing a speedrun where you kill a single boss then close the server and never come back to it. In general gameplay he's a pretty average character, actually falling behind due to how powerful characters are becoming after they get reworked. Wendy is basically just a better Wolfgang at this point since she has half the damage bonus Wolfgang does in addition to a plethora of other things such as being immune to hound attacks and being by far the best farmer of all mob drops such as silk, stingers, morsels, nmf, beard hair, etc.

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37 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

silk, stingers, morsels, nmf, beard hair, etc

you forgot monster meat, also beard hairs/stingers aren't super useful

monster meat on the other hand, is incredibly useful

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Wolfgang does need a rework but mostly because he is basically considered a pick and forget class people only ever use him whenever there's a boss fight.

Really it's just like a wicker a warley or even wigfrid  back in the day. You pick him only for the moments that you need him then you swap characters.  

Wolfgang however does have some good perks on his own to play extensively. Primarily movement. Everyone likes to say that WX is the movement character but he only ever gets anything once he is charged by a wicker. But Wolfgang is kind of like a hybrid survivalist combat class he is able to cover distances much quicker with the least amount of resources used. Just making him a really strong character because his only fuel is the easiest resource in the game to get. This is why he does actually really need a refresh. He has the most benefit  for really no downside. And this is why people want a rework for him not necessarily to Nerf what he got. But instead to make them a more interesting character. All of his benefits come from literally just eating it's so easy to get ahead with Wolfgang and that's why people argue to change him

I always like to think back to the Woody rework initially when Woody was released where Beaver was really strong in single player. Beaver was basically considered a Swiss Army knife being able to destroy attack collect resources and was able to survive extreme conditions but the downside to this was that you dropped all your inventory to do it. And you also were set in a critical condition when the beaver Rampage was complete. The game itself taught you to be wary of your condition as Woody just by playing the character. Now in BST what is considered extremely strong and an even better Swiss Army knife once he gets going because his multiple forms allow you to do what most of the cast does but at a loss of your held item and armor equipped /hat and having zero hunger when you complete it

 

I understand the thought of people hating on a character and wanting it changed is scary. But this is why we have the forums and we're able to converse our thoughts. Ultimately whatever klei decides to do with Wolfgang that is the time to actually speak up because as you can see klei does listen when there's a big majority. But who knows you might even like what they have in store for Wolfgang so let's just wait and see.

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Wolfgang needs a nerf because he’s Superman with no Kryptonite- while all other reasons can be discussed & debated: this is one point not even Wolfgang mains can argue about- in his current form his only downside is not eating enough food, and at the same exact time: His current upside is eating enough food.

Theres no balance beyond just: Stuff Food into Face.

Wolfgang’s character bio says he is a strongman, so he shouldn’t become any LESS Strong.. but his bio also proclaims he has a Myriad of Phobias (which don’t play into the game at all as of now..)

Wolfgangs Nerfs wouldn’t be in his own raw strength: it would be in other areas like Phobia of the Dead- Wolfgang can’t gain the damage buff from Abigails petal Bestowment and deals Reduced damage to Lunar Hounds & Penguin.

Its balanced because even if he’s strong, his fear over them prevents him from peak performance against them.

Now Thats his downside: having some distinctive phobias that impact gameplay phobias that as his bio clearly states he has..

His Upsides would be: Being able to maintain mighty form beyond just eating food by for example lifting heavy structures, such as chess pieces, giant crops, boulders, his signature Dumbell etc..

Wolfgangs new powers would be: being able to lift heavy objects without movement speed penalty, being able to pick up and toss team mates a short distance across for example gaps of water or caves, being able to MERM PUNCH Boulders and stuff with his Sheer strength to mine them.

These are just my examples.. but As you can see: There’s rooms for improvements (not necessarily Nerfs) to Wolfgang beyond just “Eat Food, Become Mighty.”

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44 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang needs a nerf because he’s Superman with no Kryptonite- while all other reasons can be discussed & debated: this is one point not even Wolfgang mains can argue about- in his current form his only downside is not eating enough food, and at the same exact time: His current upside is eating enough food.

Theres no balance beyond just: Stuff Food into Face.

this doesn't look like you read the post. I explain why damage multipliers are overated. No, he is not superman without kryptonite He is just strong.

what part of eating is unbalanced? Did you meant to say "there's nothing to Wolfgang beyond stuffing food into his face"?

I feel like the word balance has no meaning here

45 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgang’s character bio says he is a strongman, so he shouldn’t become any LESS Strong.. but his bio also proclaims he has a Myriad of Phobias (which don’t play into the game at all as of now..)

 

I already mentioned how a lower max sanity would be fine but let's see what ideas you have

46 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wolfgangs Nerfs wouldn’t be in his own raw strength: it would be in other areas like Phobia of the Dead- Wolfgang can’t gain the damage buff from Abigails petal Bestowment and deals Reduced damage to Lunar Hounds & Penguin.

 

I don't know why he needs to do less damage to horror hounds and pengulls, its not like pengulls are worth killing in the first place

and for lunar hounds, just why? that's a few second difference for a mob you will not fight for a while from the point you start a world

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

His Upsides would be: Being able to maintain mighty form beyond just eating food by for example lifting heavy structures, such as chess pieces, giant crops, boulders, his signature Dumbell etc..

Wolfgangs new powers would be: being able to lift heavy objects without movement speed penalty, being able to pick up

yeah this is what most players want, except for the dumbell, what's that?

53 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

not necessarily Nerfs

So is he superman without kryptonite or not? 

48 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

oss team mates a short distance across for example gaps of water or caves, being able to MERM PUNCH Boulders and stuff with his Sheer strength to mine them.

Just use a pickaxe. and use beefalo for underground boulders, this isn't really well thought out. What exactly is a merm punch?

Beyond being able to walk faster with heavy objects, is there really anything to improve on? He's strong, he's a simple character and should stay that way. Since people who want to see Wolfgang nerf because of his phobias, you can only get so far before you ruin the fun in him, by making sanity drain just ludicrious or making him unable to attack certain things when insane.

Just lower his max sanity and keep his current sanity drain

 

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Honestly - I didn't read your post.  I don't care about your arguments.

In general the multiplier for Wolfgang has always been very strong.  You just can't deny how strong it is, especially now that we have several multipliers that can stack on top of it allowing him to decimate bosses far quicker than any other character could possibly hope to.

"but this isn't a pvp game!" - yeah but when they design a new boss they have to design it around how much damage WOLFGANG can do.  If its not enough for him to get a challenge then its too easy, this means for other characters its absolutely atrocious!  Wolfgang's power spike needs to come down so other characters aren't drowned out by the ever increasing hp pools Klei has to give bosses just to keep up.

The biggest problem isn't even that - what is so funny about Wolfgang is no matter how immensely overpowered he is he is not played by very many people.  The only people who play him are the min/max power gamers who are literally just abusing anything they can in the system (or whatever they think isn't "cheese" anyway lol) to win the fights faster.  It kinda doesn't matter that he's OP, he's a crap character and it shows by how many people don't play him, even as he warps the world around his stacked multiplier boss kills.

So it comes down to 2 things.
1) Whatever happens to Wolfgang, stacking multipliers needs to be addressed.  They could do this a number of ways, such as coding in diminishing returns or limiting you to your single best multiplier in effect at any time.  Something that evens the power curve so that the disparity in power isn't so enormous.
2) Make Wolfgang interesting, and if this means cutting down his multiplier to actually give him something fun to do - deal with it.  If Klei finds a way to add something actually fun to him without nerfing him, then congrats.  My only concern is point 1.  I'm sick of seeing health values scale up with each boss pushing further and further into wolfgang-mandatory area.

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1 minute ago, Sunset Skye said:

That's never a good way to approach a thread.

idc - I've seen enough wolfgang pro / con threads, and honestly I don't care if people like him or hate him.  I am concerned about stacking multipliers and new bosses getting health bars that only Wolfgang can touch.  If there is a way to address these concerns without nerfing Wolfgang I'm all for it.  If the only way to address these concerns is nerfing him, so be it.

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5 hours ago, Well-met said:

Your own bias is that you've let slip a few times here that you do not believe there should be character balance at all under the simple basis that the opponents are computer-controlled.

He's not totally wrong.

But the biggest problem here is 'TEAM'. "What does that mean?"

Playing as a team means being a team. Wolf is very single player oriented. He's not like Wilson who may not bring much, but he can play as a team and is stronger as one. When Wolf plays as a team, he's weaker than when he plays solo. I think that's the biggest issue. Unless it's the perfect team for Wolf: him + 5 butlers. This way it works.

(Also, for me, Wolf is so boring; no challenges or good perks at all.)

I believe Wolf could keep his modifies (maybe make it 1.75) but only if they added something that made him more of a team player... It'd be great. His disadvantages are not even disadvantages lol

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6 hours ago, Seero said:

there is no reason to prepare for a 3 minute fight,

a 3 minute and 16 minute difference is not worth considering. 

ok lol 3 minutes and 16 minutes, no difference, I didn't even notice that I had 2 full day / night cycles compared to a fight where there wasn't even evening >_< lol

One difference is certainly worth considering, and you pointed it out yourself.  For a 3 minute fight you don't need to prepare, for a 16 minute fight you do.

Next compare the time it takes for him to take out toadstool compared to wilson and tell me that doesn't make a difference lolol

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13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I am concerned about stacking multipliers and new bosses getting health bars that only Wolfgang can touch.  If there is a way to address these concerns without nerfing Wolfgang I'm all for it.  If the only way to address these concerns is nerfing him, so be it.

More then half of the thread was focused on this and there was a really simply solution that I could tell you, but you have to do me a favor before that

Can you read the thread?

5 minutes ago, Yuma Arcl said:

Playing as a team means being a team. Wolf is very single player oriented. He's not like Wilson who may not bring much, but he can play as a team and is stronger as one. When Wolf plays as a team, he's weaker than when he plays solo. I think that's the biggest issue. Unless it's the perfect team for Wolf: him + 5 butlers. This way it works.

 

Wolfgang can dedicate himself to solo bosses or fight them with just 1 other player where the rest focus on other things, saving a large amount of time. But usually players just fight bosses as an entire server.

He is actually stronger when he plays with other people because more people will get him more food. Some will probably explore the lunar islands and get stone fruit really early, some will get a ton of lichen and have bee queen killed by then, since farms are great for Warly and Wormwood food that they don't need can go to wolfgang, overall saving a ton of time

8 minutes ago, Yuma Arcl said:

(Also, for me, Wolf is so boring; no challenges or good perks at all.)

 

Try fighting more bosses? 

 

8 minutes ago, Yuma Arcl said:

(maybe make it 1.75)

No

8 minutes ago, Yuma Arcl said:

but only if they added something that made him more of a team player

No speed penalty for statues

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Well to answer your question of what a Dumbell is- it is THIS.

60C941FE-ABCD-4B88-B2F0-358548F8A242.thumb.png.d3c607ca327a889b177e5e36b9792e2b.png

And as for Your question of what a Merm Punch is- I’m guessing you have never played as Wurt- hired Merms (in addition to chopping trees) can ALSO punch boulders and mine those without needing tools.

I absolutely love Wurt she can save tools durability by not needing to use Axes or Pickaxes on Trees and Boulders by just letting the Merms do the work for you.

it may not be Maxwell levels of resource gathering- but she has high health, and high hunger and Max... well he has 50 Hp- do I need to say anything more?

My point here is that MERMS are Strong- showcased in their ability to punch boulders with their bare fists. Something I would expect Klei would consider for Wolfgang’s Rework considering

“I am Mighty, there is no one Mightier!”

But there’s a catch: If Wolfgang gains new perks to make him more Interesting & fun to play: He has to take a hit in other areas, give him an actual downside to balance the NEW features out.

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14 minutes ago, Seero said:

He is actually stronger when he plays with other people because more people will get him more food. 

Aaaand here it is

15 minutes ago, Seero said:

Try fighting more bosses? 

You mean ~1% of the game content?

 

 

Wolf doesn't need a team. When he has a team, they'd better be supports. That means: they can as well play without him and he can play solo. While there's no fighting, he brings nothing good; he only takes away (the food)

He'll always be the "want an easy experience? Want to make your teammates useless in fights, leaving them no choice but to do the hard work for you? Pick me!"

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