aren't damage multipliers too strong?

[viberr]

heya everyone 

so recently i've learned that with full setup(wolgang being mighty,warly's colt goat choid froid with chilli flakes and abigails petal buff) you can get a wolfgang to achieve a 6x multiplier and that can make him deal DISGUSTING damage,like really you can deal like 400 damage with a dark sword(i know thats not the exact number)and with that damage i did use it to kill misery toadstool(and i will most probably use it to kill regular toadstool too)but outside of toadstool and misery toadstool can't everyone agree that the damage that can be afflicted is WAY too high?

(everyone always say that the dream team(heh the DREAM TEAM,god im such a Dream SMP fan) is wolfgang,wickerbottom and wx78 but the dream team should be warly,wendy and wolfgang and then boom DEEEEEAAAAATTTTTHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Viktor234]

Ofc Warly's Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid is overpowered, but Klei just doesn't care about balancing and nerfing it will make Warly useless for most players and disappoint Klei's favourite master bragger streamer.

[Cheggf]

Oh no, if three players pick specific characters and cooperate together and also it's raining which mostly limits this to spring they can do a lot of damage. There's simply no other way that anyone can deal a lot of damage. 

[viberr]

8 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Klei's favourite master bragger streamer.

and who is that?jazzygames?

i know this is not important but you seem to not like klei right? just from what you say it doesn't seem that you like klei all too much (which i personally don't get klei are really amazing)

9 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Oh no, if three players pick specific characters and cooperate together and also it's raining which mostly limits this to spring they can do a lot of damage. There's simply no other way that anyone can deal a lot of damage. 

well klei did say they were gonna add a item that causes rain.i know that you can achieve tons of damage with bunnymen and catapults but i would say that the combo of wolfgang,warly and wendy is stronger than both bunnymen and catapults because bunnymen hutches are kinda hard to get in large quantities nowadays and catapults are quite expensive in large quantities (doesn't mean that bunnymen and catapults aren't strong because they are)

[Seero]

46 minutes ago, Viktor234 said:

Ofc Warly's Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid is overpowered, but Klei just doesn't care about balancing and nerfing it will make Warly useless for most players and disappoint Klei's favourite master bragger streamer.

lol damage isn't overpowered and no wolfgang does not need a nerf.

it just allows you to kill things quicker

it makes long boring fights like dragonfly or bee queen less painful OR TOADSTOOL

killing things quickly make solo play more fun, if you are combat oriented, then wolfgang/warly/switching to warly just helps with the fact that you play alone.

Its just like having another person there to help deal more damage. The more you call it overpowered the more I can reply with "lol just add another player" If you even suggest going with "But keeping that player alive costs resources", don't forget what side of the argument you are on.

If you want to say "but multiple players can use jelly and spices"

So? lol good for them. It's not even worth it because multiple players already do pretty insane damage to bosses.

also glermz is a great streamer he's pretty fun to watch

 

 

[viberr]

1 minute ago, Seero said:

lol damage isn't overpowered and no wolfgang does not need a nerf.

it just allows you to kill things quicker

it makes long boring fights like dragonfly or bee queen less painful OR TOADSTOOL

killing things quickly make solo play more fun, if you are combat oriented, then wolfgang/warly/switching to warly just helps with the fact that you play alone.

Its just like having another person there to help deal more damage. The more you call it overpowered the more I can reply with "lol just add another player" If you even suggest going with "But keeping that player alive costs resources", don't forget what side of the argument you are on.

 

 

but you're talking about a pick and swap situation while its mainly about having a team of three people (wendy,wolfgang and warly)basically obliterate everything

also you calling dragonfly and beequeen long and boring fights just makes me kinda annoyed considering they're both really great bosses(in my opinion)

and while i am down to have ways to kill things faster i think that it goes too far when you can kill a boss with 99,999 health in not that long of a time period basically meaning that against some boss with normal health like deerclops you can kill them in 10 hits which is just absurd 

also it seems like you're arguing against yourselfthe dude hasn't even sent you any replys back 

[Seero]

Just now, stranger again said:

but you're talking about a pick and swap situation while its mainly about having a team of three people (wendy,wolfgang and warly)basically obliterate everything

 

three wilson- no I mean three wes's, wes' or wessi can obliterate everything. Except for spiders that's for webber and wendy.

1 minute ago, stranger again said:

also you calling dragonfly and beequeen long and boring fights just makes me kinda annoyed considering they're both really great bosses(in my opinion)

 

I think you can be more generous with dragonfly, not with bee queen

in order to solo beequeen you either need to either spam panflute or create this abomination: 

3 minutes ago, stranger again said:

and while i am down to have ways to kill things faster i think that it goes too far when you can kill a boss with 99,999 health in not that long of a time period basically meaning that against some boss with normal health like deerclops you can kill them in 10 hits which is just absurd 

 

yeah well his health could be 52k and his drops suck 

damage numbers don't mean anything "but wolfgang can do 4 bajillion damage" 

deerclops doesn't matter because he can be killed just fine with wilson's damage and a hambat

I am arguing against myself because I am trying to predict what he'll say, so I can refute it in advance

 

 

[Wilson-brb]

1 hour ago, Viktor234 said:

Ofc Warly's Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid is overpowered, but Klei just doesn't care about balancing and nerfing it will make Warly useless for most players and disappoint Klei's favourite master bragger streamer.

wow man, you really hate klei huh?

 

2 minutes ago, Seero said:

three wilson- no I mean three wes's, wes' or wessi can obliterate everything. Except for spiders that's for webber and wendy.

I think you can be more generous with dragonfly, not with bee queen

in order to solo beequeen you either need to either spam panflute or create this abomination: 

yeah well his health could be 52k and his drops suck 

damage numbers don't mean anything "but wolfgang can do 4 bajillion damage" 

deerclops doesn't matter because he can be killed just fine with wilson's damage and a hambat

I am arguing against myself because I am trying to predict what he'll say, so I can refute it in advance

 

 

please, before anything lets keep this calm and controlled, let joew have a little rest shall we?.

[Seero]

2 minutes ago, rafaelluismpalm said:

please, before anything lets keep this calm and controlled, let joew have a little rest shall we?.

I'm perfectly calm, i'm just explaining to him how damage is overatted

[viberr]

7 minutes ago, Seero said:

three wilson- no I mean three wes's, wes' or wessi can obliterate everything

well not misery toadstool(unless they all planned and are prepared)

 

7 minutes ago, Seero said:

not with bee queen

well since you like to pick and swap wendy exists for killing bee queen 

 

7 minutes ago, Seero said:

yeah well his health could be 52k and his drops suck 

this doesn't mean anything to the discussion. its just you saying he sucks(which a lot of people agree with)

 

7 minutes ago, Seero said:

damage numbers don't mean anything "but wolfgang can do 4 bajillion damage" 

yeah they do,they definitely do if damage numbers didn't mean anything all weapons would do the same damage which is dumb also i don't get why you said that thing about wolfgang in air quotes

2 minutes ago, Seero said:

I'm perfectly calm

me too we are both just having a healthy debate 

[Wilson-brb]

3 minutes ago, Seero said:

I'm perfectly calm, i'm just explaining to him how damage is overatted

no, yes i know you are calm just like reminding both of you because in the recent days there were a lot of discussion in klei forum...

[Seero]

1 minute ago, stranger again said:

well not misery toadstool(unless they all planned and are prepared)

 

how do you fight a boss without at least preparing?

1 minute ago, stranger again said:

well since you like to pick and swap wendy exists for killing bee queen 

 

Uh so wendy is op now? this just proves my point that characters with damage multipliers or wendy make the game more fun.

3 minutes ago, stranger again said:

well since you like to pick and swap wendy exists for killing bee queen 

 

because my point circles around the fact that damage is overated 

if it's overated then trying to stack blow darts with jelly, spices and wolfgang's mightiness to make it look like he needs a nerf is pointless

I wonder when they will add the rainmaking tool so the morning star becomes more useful and we can reach maximum potential with jelly

[Hornete]

58 minutes ago, stranger again said:

and who is that?jazzygames?

i know this is not important but you seem to not like klei right? just from what you say it doesn't seem that you like klei all too much (which i personally don't get klei are really amazing)

they're talking about glermz.

[viberr]

2 minutes ago, Seero said:

Uh so wendy is op now? this just proves my point that characters with damage multipliers or wendy make the game more fun.

of course having more damage is fun but theres boundaries on how strong it should get and that 6x damage multiplier with wolfgang is just too strong,like make every single boss a joke amounts of strong and thats just kinda dumb considering how easy it is to get everything for the 6x multiplier 

 

Just now, Hornete said:

they're talking about glermz.

ohh?i never knew glemrz bragged?since when?

 

8 minutes ago, rafaelluismpalm said:

no, yes i know you are calm just like reminding both of you because in the recent days there were a lot of discussion in klei forum...

well thank for the reminder

[Seero]

3 minutes ago, stranger again said:

of course having more damage is fun but theres boundaries on how strong it should get and that 6x damage multiplier with wolfgang is just too strong,like make every single boss a joke amounts of strong and thats just kinda dumb considering how easy it is to get everything for the 6x multiplier 

 

are you talking about the 600 dmg in blowdarts?

I already knew this was going to be brought up through clairvoyance I was going to use it as an example at one point but didn't

that takes a really long time to set up, mostly in getting the hounds teeth but is it necessary? is your time better spent doing other things unless it's super late game? I'd say no and yes

 

[viberr]

4 minutes ago, Seero said:

are you talking about the 600 dmg in blowdarts?

no 

anyways been fun debating with you but imma head out im tired and i need to go to sleep

toodles 

[Mike23Ua]

Friendly reminder: not everyone plays the game to fight raid bosses, what may be broken to you may make the game more playable for others. 
 

I highly dislike boss content in this game, most of them generally don’t seem to serve any purpose beyond reward X item to make Y situation easier to survive.

Kind of pointless when I don’t plan to keep any world beyond around 500-600 game days. While I most certainly understand the Ops concerns over Damage buffs- not everything about the game is centered around damage.

I’m pretty sure Wolfgang will get some proper changes to balance him out but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

For now though- it’s fine, it’s not like there’s an Adventures Mode or Anything and Wendy, Warly, Wolfgang combo makes this challenging mode a laughable joke.

Wolfgang has and I quote “Myriad of Phobias” yet currently in the game his phobias are nowhere to be seen- what if for example Wolfgang is scared of ghosts? And so he wouldn’t get the Petal Buff from Wendy and Abigail.

Thats just ONE example of it, I’m sure Klei has plenty ideas to balance things.

[Seero]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I highly dislike boss content in this game, most of them generally don’t seem to serve any purpose beyond reward X item to make Y situation easier to survive.

 

all survival games, and if not all games boil down to "reward X item to make Y situation easier to survive"

in minecraft if you go deep you will be rewarded with diamonds, making situations easier to survive

in terraria you get the waterbolt after killing skeletron to make the wall of flesh easier to kill

In dishonored, you obtain the time stopping ability to make missions easier and for a crappy anime joke

In don't starve you get rewarded for venturing into the caves by getting lightbulbs, which are used to craft the lantern, a superb lightsource used to survive the night. The point is, your point encompasses a large if not all aspects of video games, and is unrelated to discussion.

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Kind of pointless when I don’t plan to keep any world beyond around 500-600 game days. While I most certainly understand the Ops concerns over Damage buffs- not everything about the game is centered around damage.

 

yeah exactly

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m pretty sure Wolfgang will get some proper changes to balance him out but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

 

but then you say this, if the game is not centered around dealing the most damage, why nerf wolfgang?

[CarlZalph]

Multipliers for damage is hard to balance around in any game, which is why a lot of ARPGs use flat damage boosts.

But those damage boosts are only really meaningful for the first chunk and then you don't get that same oompf power you used to.  For example, turning 1 damage into 1+100 is a big boon.  But turning 1+100*9 into 1+100*10 isn't as much.  101 times vs 1.11 times difference in magnitudes.

Multipliers gets around this by making every multiplier felt as there's no more of this relative diminishing returns, but it opens up the potential for a stack combo that explodes off to super high numbers if an edge case is neglected.  Like a full wolfgang with the boost from warly and wendy, it's an edge that the individual parts are pretty decent buffs but all together and it's a cannon.

In DST's case it's both since weapons add flat +damage and then you have these bonus multipliers.

Games that implement caps on multipliers don't feel intuitive to the player as they're arbitrary limits imposed, which results in a negative action to the player for doing a positive thing.  Ex. Wolfgang eating the +damage% meal should be beneficial, but if it's capped and it didn't do anything then it's a wasted food item.

 

DST is pretty much PvE anyway, so it really only boils down to: Is it fun?

To a player getting the big stick multipliers from stacking everything like a mathematical wizard I'd bet that it does.  So I see no real reason to nerf something like this especially when it involves multiple players to make it happen.  Teamwork benefits the team regardless who gets to be the dps.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

55 minutes ago, Seero said:

three wilson- no I mean three wes's, wes' or wessi can obliterate everything. Except for spiders that's for webber and wendy.

I think you can be more generous with dragonfly, not with bee queen

in order to solo beequeen you either need to either spam panflute or create this abomination: 

yeah well his health could be 52k and his drops suck 

damage numbers don't mean anything "but wolfgang can do 4 bajillion damage" 

deerclops doesn't matter because he can be killed just fine with wilson's damage and a hambat

I am arguing against myself because I am trying to predict what he'll say, so I can refute it in advance

 

 

you can kill her without pan flautes neither fences

[Psychomaniac]

I tweak my Wolfgang to do x10 dmg and call it a fair fight (i played solo, so who gonna care but me), btw DST is not all about killing things, it's also about building things.

[Seero]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you can kill her without pan flautes neither fences

teach me how because I want to incorporate it to my hypothetical maxwell run

Oh you mean running back and forth in her later phases?

Yeah that's a total pain and it's hard to tell where she will despawn so my point still stands

even if the fight was good in my opinion it would still stands because she is a raid boss

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 minutes ago, Seero said:

teach me how because I want to incorporate it to my hypothetical maxwell run

Oh you mean running back and forth in her later phases?

Yeah that's a total pain and it's hard to tell where she will despawn so my point still stands

even if the fight was good in my opinion it would still stands because she is a raid boss

Just in the second phase and isnt a pain with practise,  also you can use an fire staff to acelerate that phase

In the 2 last phases just out run the bees and crush her

Other method is to build a single wall with doors to split her from the bees

The loot is worth any trouble

 

Edit: i didnt read the entire topic but just to add my 2cents. Damage is so important since it makes you waste less resources and time, makes fighting waves easier and get op loot easier too

Wolfgang might not have interactive perks but has a lot of utility. A guy that can help killing things that comes to kill your partners and farms mobs and bosses easier makes a huge difference

He is op, that he deserves or not s nerf isnt in my hand and i dont care but saying that he is underrated has no sense

18 minutes ago, Psychomaniac said:

I tweak my Wolfgang to do x10 dmg and call it a fair fight (i played solo, so who gonna care but me), btw DST is not all about killing things, it's also a about building things.

But is a big part of the game. A huge part, since day ~9 hounds come to you and most of the loot is behind mobs

[GetNerfedOn]

 - Id say with the prep involved and the amount of risk still present, maxed damage multipliers are fine. Plus you c achieve this damage lategame unless your gameplan in any playthrough is solely focused to achieve this strategy early game for some reason, which eould be quite the challenge.

the real issue i see is Wolfgang having a pathetic downside to counter his damage. 

Furthermore, not everyone finds it easy or fun to farm chaud froids, chili, abby potions, bundle wrap, belly food for Wolfgang, etc. Personally, its just not worth it but this is coming from someone who farmed 120 buffed powdersticks, which eventually did little to ease the intense tedium of lategame.

just my two cents

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Viktor234 said:

Ofc Warly's Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid is overpowered, but Klei just doesn't care about balancing and nerfing it will make Warly useless for most players and disappoint Klei's favourite master bragger streamer.

Csn you be less bitter? Is so annoying to enter to a topic and read such negative words and everytime is from the same users

If you hate it that much edit the game to your taste, play other things or debate balance like an adult not like someone who blames the world for whatever reason makes you that bitter

Also klei has nerfed many things that that player that you seems to envy had exploit

without taking in count his contribution to the game or how there can be more playstyles that doesnt need to be the same as yours