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Rocket interiors - a way of Klei to troll us?


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I deliberately formulated the title a little more provocative. I know it's still a long way to release and it's obvious that changes will be made. But that said I still don't get the general idea behind it.

I mean the idea of having rocket interiors sounds cool but needs quite a bit more thought to make it really work because if you just give us a tiny little space and the usual ONI mechanics it ends up a total mess. At least for me it isn't much fun as it is.

 

As for the trolling... in a real space ship or station life support system designs are critical and same goes for a game where the oxygen isn't included. in reality this is solved by recycling. expressed in ONI terminology the real loop usually goes like this: water -> elektrolizer -> oxygen -> breathing -> carbon dioxide -> carbon skimmer (via lithium hydoxide) -> polluted water (a lithium carbon compound is still there, but also from all sorts of other sources) -> water sieve -> water. Yeah well, in reality this loop is has a few more branches and is more complicated in the details, but this simplified description hits it still quite well.

Yes, the fact that i can describe the real recycling loop entirely in ONI processes/buildings is cool but trolling at the very same time... since in ONI it doesn't work because it destroys a lot of oxygen, like actually most cycles do. That is really an evil thing to do... giving us a framework to simulate the difficulties of space travel yet and teasing us with quite nicely approximated physics just to suffocate us at the very end when all things come together...

would it be too much to ask to make at least this cycle viable? and if you do... there wouldn't be much keeping us from being able to build entire space stations. Just saying.

More on this particular aspect here (and why it's just as much important for colonies now in the DLC):

 

Also, the rockets are build out of various modules, yet we only see the interior of the top one? wouldn't it be significantly easier if we would see the interior of the whole rocket where some modules would allow to extend usable space while other would come with predefined interiors? The squeezing of everything in a tiny space does not sound like something everyone will love to do. Sure, that's okay for the first rocket... but for all space stuff up into the end game? meh.

Another thing that i find quite strange and doesn't work with rocket interiors is storage. There are dedicated modules for that... yet a single tile can store an infinite amount of solids and theoretically packaged liquids (requires a lot micro and mopping though). So the right application of a conveyor chute and loader with specialized settings does the trick.

So this is either a very early design stage of the new space travel system or not well thought through. 

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1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

That is really an evil thing to do... giving us a framework to simulate the difficulties of space travel yet and teasing us with quite nicely approximated physics just to suffocate us at the very end when all things come together...

It might have been done this way deliberately to avoid complications of 'simulating' morale, oxygen and food consumption by dupes. Players were complaining that dupes consume nothing while in rocket, so instead of 'simulating' needs, devs decided to simulate a mini world.

Personally I hope that command modules will have an internal O2 and 'waste gas' tanks, that will leave player with needing just a vent and a pump inside. Will also make sense to have internal water and pwater tanks (for toilets, carbon skimmer). A way to charge rocket from landing pad...

This will also resolve potential issues with heat, because it will keep accumulating otherwise.

1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

would it be too much to ask to make at least this cycle viable? and if you do... there wouldn't be much keeping us from being able to build entire space stations.

I don't see how this will resolve listed issues. What's the point?

Even if new cycle will be implemented, it won't fit into a command module. Even if it does somehow fit, we will face an issue with 'heat' management next.

'Space station' is in no way different from from mini asteroids, which are entirely viable to make into independent colonies without volcanoes/geysers/e.t.c so the only thing we miss is an ability to start space stations.

On top of that I agree with Yunru, I have no idea if it was done deliberately or not, but with a stable and short loop game simply won't be as good as it is.

1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

Also, the rockets are build out of various modules, yet we only see the interior of the top one? wouldn't it be significantly easier if we would see the interior of the whole rocket where some modules would allow to extend usable space while other would come with predefined interiors?

While I do somewhat agree and find ability to have an interior in a 'trailblazer' a cool idea, it will aslo break any kind of balance and complexity over a knee, because nothing will stop players from delivering literal tons of resourses in a single trailblazer to 'niobium' asteroid thus elininating any complexity.

Another issue will be the need to equip every module with machines, which will get 'old' very fast. Personally I would prefer for command modules to stay the only module with interior.

1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

Another thing that i find quite strange and doesn't work with rocket interiors is storage. There are dedicated modules for that... yet a single tile can store an infinite amount of solids and theoretically packaged liquids (requires a lot micro and mopping though).

There is a separate discussion for that.

Personally I think that cargo bay should be expanded and rocket should consume more fuel to carry more mass, so if you decide to carry 20T of resources, be ready to have reduced range.

 

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I think their intention was to make it impossible to build a self sustaining base inside the rocket. You need to land once a while to refill supplies and remove waste. We can recycle stuff inside for a while but we can`t sustain infinitely. I think that`s a good way to make it. At least until they make a space station, long range starship or something (or maybe we will get mods for those).

We just need better options to exchange liquids and gasses with the command module without making the cargo modules even more useless.

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I`m very much hoping for an alternative way to not  ( always? ) be forced to rocket interior play, so that Klei caters for rocket interior fans and those which like how it is in the base game ( only seeing that the dupe climbs in and gets out of the rocket). Can`t wait until all rockets are back in the game (dlc), praying for that day :afro:

 

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That monkey needs to dial it down a couple notches.

 

Putting snark aside for a moment to make a constructive comment. The whole interior system doesn't add value as far as I'm concerned. It's a shallow gimmick that will quickly become a nuisance. Better to abstract that away. IMO, rockets should be treated like a storage bin. Select a destination and the game calculates how much fuel, oxidizer, food, oxygen, water, etc. is needed. Those values are selected by default, but the player is free to add more. The rocket is then loaded via conveyor/pipes or manual dupe labor. Adding cargo bays increases the total storage space and players are free to select how much of any material to load in a UI like storage bins. Individual elements could be selected to trigger separate bits on a ribbon cable (A use for ribbon cables?!?!?).

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13 minutes ago, wachunga said:

That monkey needs to dial it down a couple notches.

Putting snark aside for a moment to make a constructive comment. The whole interior system doesn't add value as far as I'm concerned. It's a shallow gimmick that will quickly become a nuisance. Better to abstract that away. IMO, rockets should be treated like a storage bin. Select a destination and the game calculates how much fuel, oxidizer, food, oxygen, water, etc. is needed. Those values are selected by default, but the player is free to add more. The rocket is then loaded via conveyor/pipes or manual dupe labor. Adding cargo bays increases the total storage space and players are free to select how much of any material to load in a UI like storage bins.

I like how rockets are currently operating in the base game...But I also understand the fun people have with setting up the perfect indoor construction stuff inside the rockets, this thread introduction is a good example. I do really hope Klei caters for both type of players, rocket interior and base-game-looking-from-outdoor-fueling-players.

Wachunga: "IMO, rockets should be treated like a storage bin." -> I would like this option very much :rolleyes:

3 hours ago, TheKilltech said:

...Another thing that i find quite strange and doesn't work with rocket interiors is storage. There are dedicated modules for that... yet a single tile can store an infinite amount of solids and theoretically packaged liquids...

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2 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

Even if new cycle will be implemented, it won't fit into a command module. Even if it does somehow fit, we will face an issue with 'heat' management next.

Normally excess heat is delt with by radiating it into space. There is a mod that adds radiators to the vanilla game. In terms of the DLC i'd expect that if the devs realize it's a problem they add those. Since they are external modules they would come build in or integrated with a module. in the interior this would work by making the exterior walls simply lose a certain amount of (excess) heat per cycle and there pilot seat would allow to set up what excess is (so you can set at which temperature the radiators start working). That gives us a window to work with.

As for not being able to fit it in... well, then i simply would like to build a bigger space ship. especially later on.

2 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

While I do somewhat agree and find ability to have an interior in a 'trailblazer' a cool idea, it will aslo break any kind of balance and complexity over a knee, because nothing will stop players from delivering literal tons of resourses in a single trailblazer to 'niobium' asteroid thus elininating any complexity.

but the exploit is already there anyway. Fair enough, it doesn't affect the initial landing but everything else apart from that. Simply put this needs to be fixed before release anyway. one option is to calculate the actual total weight of a rocket (adding up all mass in the interior) and let the total mass impact fuel costs. then it won't matter. trailblazer module might also come with weight limits to be able to land safely.

2 hours ago, Yunru said:

So teh TL:DR; is "make game more realistic"?

Oxygen is deliberately designed to not have a stable loop without external resources. It is, in fact, so important that it's in the name of the game.

no not really. realism is all nice, but actually i am going for easier and more convenient gameplay which includes having larger variety of options for problems - so i don't need to look for typical ONI exploits. recycling means i have additional sources for oxygen and water can build simple and stable solutions that don't rely on geysers or pips thus also don't need much space.

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34 minutes ago, TheKilltech said:

recycling means i have additional sources for oxygen and water can build simple and stable solutions that don't rely on geysers or pips thus also don't need much space.

Well, removing a core element of challenge would certainly make the gameplay easier yes.

But in the challenge lies the fun, so why?

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14 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Well, removing a core element of challenge would certainly make the gameplay easier yes.

But in the challenge lies the fun, so why?

sure. you give the player powerful tools that allow very flexible use in different scenarios that makes them able to become mostly self reliant in almost any environment? This means that the devs would need to confront us with much more hostile environments with random events and disasters - and that's where the fun begins. so we don't need to battle the same basic child problems anymore with similar solutions but can start exploring new shores and taking on the unknow and unpredictable.

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It sounds like you're just bored with the challenges you've already got.

It's cool you've mastered them to that degree, but that's no reason for their removal.

Want an easy solution that cuts out the fun (that you're already not experiencing if you're bored with it)? Cheat.

Brush in some oxylite, have fun, and stop trying to get the game dumbed down such that the rest of us can enjoy the challenges we still find novel :P

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14 hours ago, Yunru said:

It sounds like you're just bored with the challenges you've already got.

It's cool you've mastered them to that degree, but that's no reason for their removal.

Want an easy solution that cuts out the fun (that you're already not experiencing if you're bored with it)? Cheat.

Brush in some oxylite, have fun, and stop trying to get the game dumbed down such that the rest of us can enjoy the challenges we still find novel :P

Yeah, well i don't think it's just about being boring. haven't read that much positive feedback on rocket interiors here and now that i had played a little with it i understand very much why. solve problem you don't have the proper tools for... but than again, at this point why bother to solve them at all? for the first rockets those issues will only annoy you but won't kill you and for the long run... the game will change anyway.

Anyhow working out what really makes it not fun and what could be done to change it - not just for me but for the broader playerbase - is kind of important in development cycle.

And as far as i see it, the current situation with oxygen and water is somewhat comparable to the oxygen mask station. players seem to very dislike the continuous and needless destruction of metals. Sure, in this case the players have enjoyed what gameplay looks like with significantly more sustainable alternatives and because of that most suggestions go in the same direction. And sure, the complains would be much less if metals were easily renewable but they are not and there is a certain challenge that comes with that.

So the question here is: why don't we consider instead adding challenges to make the atmo suit station work similar to the oxygen masks by making suits consumable after some time? That would make also give it more use cases as it's won't be a plain worse option to the suit station. So there would be a substantial resource drain to both variants i.e. the type of challenge you seem to enjoy. But for me this would be just an annoyance that just severely limits the usability to atmo suits and oxygen mask stations to situations where infinite metals sources are available and already at least in reach of being exploited.

As for the recycling loops, well, they do make things initially easier and less annoying but come with their own level of changes - especially in cases where there is no resupplying. closed loops systems are for example sensitive to leakage. In ONI we are so used to resources being created and destroyed such that it may be difficult to understand what it means to work with a very limited amount - and understand that whatever leaks out won't be just replenished like that. it's lost. 

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A perfect and easy oxygen loop without leaks.

Wouldn't that ruin the game just by existing? Isn't the whole point of the game to find a solution to provide oxygen and food while balancing heat and resources lost in the meantime? 

I'm perfectly fine with how command modules are now, by the way. World restrictions (smaller sized maps) and build restrictions (even smaller sized areas) go side by side in the dlc -IMO- (yes. I would also like the map size to stay as is). Building restrictions were always part of the game only now they exist on a bigger scale. 

There should be an auto command module at some point (an advanced computer navigation program that should only require automation to go back and forth between platforms with the cost of databanks or something else perhaps) but how dupes used to travel between asteroids I found it dull to require just an atmo suit without even food for the road..

Is it easier or more challenging the dlc compared to the base game?

Well... it was harder in general when there was no "sandbox" and "no sweat" mode. Now you can choose any difficulty you want and if you like it harder you put more restrictions to yourself, if you want it easier you spawn/build anything you want. If you want a rocket going back and forth transferring fixed amount of resources there should be (I hope) an automated solution, no dupe required. If you want a rocket build to sustain at least one dupe for x amount of cycles, you should find the way to build it efficiently like everything else in the game.

*Just putting my opinions in the bundle while waiting impatiently for an update :D -rocket module designs below

Spoiler

 

Description: Swamp start, oxygen using oxylite, berry sludge for food

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Research rocket, discovering new planetoids, oxylite-berry sludge

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Potential longer travel rocket (I didn't have the need to use it yet), same resources plus oxyfern 

142231204_rockettravel.thumb.jpg.7e4ccb2a7f3880d22b6bc9a6e4640698.jpg

 

 

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@sakura_sk Man, that`s some damn sweet looking interior builds :chunky::love_heart::chunky: I do hope there will be an option that we can just refuel rockets as in the base game, without everyone have to crawl in to them as a designer. An aquarium would be neat for the game, with little micro fish jumping in joy.

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2 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

A perfect and easy oxygen loop without leaks.

Wouldn't that ruin the game just by existing? Isn't the whole point of the game to find a solution to provide oxygen and food while balancing heat and resources lost in the meantime?

Well, tell that to a NASA engineers to humor them. You somehow seem to think that creating O2 recycling loop makes the oxygen problem go away? Nope, it doesn't. All it does is to give you some options when no external sources are available. But you also seem to miss the little detail that we are talking about recycling - so you have to make due with the starting amount in your cycle. While the O2 doesn't get deleted, no new one is created either. normally we don't have to care much about leakage but for closed system this is huge issue that can be a death sentence. in terms of making a recycling loop stable in the long run, there is just a lot you can do wrong. 

It only really gets easy when you setup O2 recycling AND have access to make new oxygen at the same time.

EDIT: But you are aware that there are loops for oxygen already in the vanilla ONI? but unlike what i suggested here these are... completely unrealistic, unintuitive and broken in the the sense that create new oxygen out of nothing - among a few other resources.

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2 hours ago, TheKilltech said:

While the O2 doesn't get deleted, no new one is created either. normally we don't have to care much about leakage but for closed system this is huge issue

Except closed systems by definition don't leak.

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1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

Well, tell that to a NASA engineers to humor them.

Well... I wouldn't dare to compare a game with a NASA engineer's designs... and expect to make builds parallel to that. (Was I supposed to..? )

(If we are still talking about rocket modules) the only problem I find currently is not being able to vent/transfer unwanted gas elements from the command module either to the main map or even to space. All builds getting rid of excess oxygen or other gasses in the module are very elaborate ones (include pump, generator, canister and many dupe hours). Solids and liquids can be evacuated with a little push if necessary (yellow alert..)

If we are talking generally about closed oxygen (and other) loops in ONI (and not in real life) there are many and yes, I know a few, I use whichever fits, whichever I discovered last or saw in a playthrough and liked it.

If I wanted to dissect a dupe and find what that genetic ooze is made of that makes it consume that much oxygen but exhales so little CO2 ..then it would be a different kind of game (what that bladder is made of to hold 6.7 kg of.. waste?!)

As for the segment below:

1 hour ago, TheKilltech said:

But you also seem to miss the little detail that we are talking about recycling - so you have to make due with the starting amount in your cycle. While the O2 doesn't get deleted, no new one is created either. normally we don't have to care much about leakage but for closed system this is huge issue that can be a death sentence.

You lost me there... and I have no idea what you are talking about (if you don't mind explaining...?).

If you are talking about the whole "water and oxygen recycling" calculations of the other topic's post and plants CO2-O2 conversions then no, I don't care about conserving an original O2-CO2 ratio of a starting closed area. If that was true then you wouldn't need to move your dupes after printing. Just digging a couple of tiles to find a plant and that's it. I like how you can't stop moving trying to find a balance.

I can't wait to see how more unrealistic nuclear power will be :-D

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1 hour ago, sakura_sk said:

...I can't wait to see how more unrealistic nuclear power will be :-D

A phrase from evilcat19xx below and I hope Klei lets me soon continue building my dream. On the realism topic, I`m hoping for nuke waste barrels plus metal oxidation someday in the game + Fire !

Imagine fire consuming all oxygen inside rockets ( I still don`t want to look inside the rockets, let it burn...Except if I can design the inside like the Event-Horizon ) :black_eyed: Welding sparks...all dupe welding should spark and possibly gas/material/liquid combust in the game = Great gameplay fun for everyone. Burn Arbor Forest, burn ! :grief: Firefighters down the poles ! :biggrin-new:

On 12/12/2020 at 2:21 PM, evilcat19xx said:

Right after reactor meltdown you should use all those 10-100 steam rockets to move all the colony to a new planetoid.

image.png.c509d62f58be75c99a3b53a84bd7903e.png

Aren`t we all a bit dupe :confused: Listening to the Red Army Choir in the morning, brushing the teeth is nice. I hope I can someday produce Vodka together with @aresd in the game, running a nuclear powered Dupe Distillery Factory with dupes rolling the wood barrels......Fire !

The ONi reactor video WIP   image.png.b6fdcdb157cc8118b54851b0de97f122.png  Still no Dupe Orchestra in the game :confused:

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18 hours ago, Yunru said:

Except closed systems by definition don't leak.

Difference between the theory and attempts to practically implementing it - it's never perfect. So prefix "close system" with the word "attempted" or "almost" in your mind. :) 

16 hours ago, sakura_sk said:

You lost me there... and I have no idea what you are talking about (if you don't mind explaining...?).

If you are talking about the whole "water and oxygen recycling" calculations of the other topic's post and plants CO2-O2 conversions then no, I don't care about conserving an original O2-CO2 ratio of a starting closed area. If that was true then you wouldn't need to move your dupes after printing. Just digging a couple of tiles to find a plant and that's it. I like how you can't stop moving trying to find a balance.

I can't wait to see how more unrealistic nuclear power will be :-D

Okay, i think you misinterpret on how some things play out. Take the algae terrarium as it is in the current version. it can convert CO2 to oxygen but that's only optional. it works perfectly without it. This means it adds a lot of new oxygen into the system. That renders oxygen very easy to maintain as long as there is some algae in supply.

But if you have stuff that can only convert CO2 into O2, i.e. where the CO2 is an explicit requirement things are very different. for one it means that without CO2 resupply there is no oxygen generation. and it also means no new gas is ever generated. so when you start digging the same amount of gas has to fill a much larger volume which means you thin out the air. amongst other things, the thinner air means that the CO2 will be less concentrated so at some point it will be less than the conversion process needs slowing down O2 recycling. 

in other words you will still require an additional oxygen sources that creates new oxygen for your colonies, like the algae terrarium or the rust deoxidizer. the CO2 conversion for plants becomes merely a necessity to be able to handle the massive increased CO2 output (to realistic levels) so the early game can be setup to play out mostly similar. 

Relying on plants for oxygen recycling would also come with a big risk: whenever growth conditions are not met the process stops and oxygen balance breaks down causing a cascade of failures all over the colony. Experiments like that were made in real life and that was exactly what happened. And in small closed system critical failure happens really fast.

On the other hand systems where external sources provide renewable resources are very easy to maintain (which is what we deal mostly with in ONI up to ~cycle 500), while closed resource recycling systems are actually fragile and complicated to maintain. You would only really think about it whenever the prior isn't available. But of course, whenever you can have both, you can make your life really a lot easier since you get the best of both worlds mitigating their main problems. EDIT: In order to balance that later on such a change might require to tune down the availability of algae, rust, polluted dirt and water/oxygen geysers.

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10 hours ago, TheKilltech said:

Okay, i think you misinterpret on how some things play out. Take the algae terrarium as it is in the current version. it can convert CO2 to oxygen but that's only optional. it works perfectly without it. This means it adds a lot of new oxygen into the system. That renders oxygen very easy to maintain as long as there is some algae in supply.

Yes, if you have other resources you can produce oxygen with, then it is indeed pretty easy to produce oxygen.  That's kind of the whole point of the game: figure out how to produce oxygen, and try not to run out of the resource(s) to continue doing so.

10 hours ago, TheKilltech said:

But if you have stuff that can only convert CO2 into O2, i.e. where the CO2 is an explicit requirement things are very different. for one it means that without CO2 resupply there is no oxygen generation. and it also means no new gas is ever generated. so when you start digging the same amount of gas has to fill a much larger volume which means you thin out the air. amongst other things, the thinner air means that the CO2 will be less concentrated so at some point it will be less than the conversion process needs slowing down O2 recycling. 

There is at least enough oxylite on starting maps to supply 18 24x4 rooms and you only need about 50kg of algae for each additional one.  If it is fairly easy to just recycle between CO2 and O2 without consuming other resources then it would render the game pointless.  If you can still easily produce more with a little algae or water, then even with no water geysers, it would be both easy to survive and expand, as well as no longer having much of a point.

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On 12/29/2020 at 3:30 AM, psusi said:

There is at least enough oxylite on starting maps to supply 18 24x4 rooms and you only need about 50kg of algae for each additional one.  If it is fairly easy to just recycle between CO2 and O2 without consuming other resources then it would render the game pointless.  If you can still easily produce more with a little algae or water, then even with no water geysers, it would be both easy to survive and expand, as well as no longer having much of a point.

Hmm, true. If plants converted CO2, it obsoletes the original problem that oxylite was added to solve. Hence there is no reason to leave it in the starting area at all. 

As for being easy... when there are enough ways to recycle oxygen, there is no need to give you too easy access to resources that produce new oxygen (algae). and when you have to rely on recycling which is a pressure sensitive process, the game would become significantly harder. that said, while fluid seals are nice, having proper airlocks would become extremely important for survival.

But if you are evil, you could also make oxygen a hazard. I mean realistically having a too much oxygen in the air is extremely dangerous as it decreases the autoignition temperatures of all stuff making them susceptible to catching fire.. and this even includes refined metals. So you could make a start with too much oxygen extremely difficult.

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