TheKilltech

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  1. Yeah, there are many oxygen and water processing options so the amount of closed loops one can build for oxygen and water is theoretically quite large but in reality almost all are very mass negative which makes none really interesting for practical gameplay as of yet. when it comes to rebalancing those, i would go one by one and balance them (focusing on the critical elements only whenever it get problematic with in regard to other elements), starting with the most simple ones. given that sublimation is quite complex i think i would make it late on my list. and in the end there is no necessity to make every single building perfectly mass conserving. some may remain entirely specialized to certain environmental conditions and have only a use case there.
  2. Hehe, yeah. for these cases i want the loops to work without any mass defects at all. i just though that for some buildings like a coal generator/wood burner aren't the things you would normally go for to power a space station, so it might be okay if their loops have some mass defects... in part because i don't want to allow for a perpetuum mobile (energy from nothing). i could also try balancing for energy conservation but that's a whole level more of balancing complexity.
  3. Well, actually i feel like it's quite the other way around. The problem with ONI is that we are confronted with very stable and predictable environments - simply because the game doesn't give us the tools to handle complex scenarios of an unpredictable changing environment. But in reality we have to take into account all eventualities when lives (or worse money) are on the line. For these eventualities we have to counteract the effects of the enviorment, so there is exactly your interaction with the unknown. Where do we have anything like that in ONI? Instead in ONI it's very linear. If you start in an algae biome, u go for algae terrarium. if it's a rust biome, u go for rust deoxidizers. a lot of polluted dirt? sublimation stations. in reality it's more complicated. you always go for recycling, just so in case of unforeseen eventualities you have a backup to rely on. but if you have a source to produce oxygen then you take it and combine it with your recycling loop - but when you allow systems to interact you allow for more ways for things go wrong. hence you have to balance the systems against each other - and adapt that to all possible scenarios that might happen. so you see... reality is a lot about extremely complex and therefore nearly unforseeable interactions. In ONI however the different process "building blocks" don't fit that well with each other. usually one building only works with one or two others in the follow-up resource processing resulting in clear and simple processing chains with very clear and limited interactions. so you rarely have a different chains compete for the same resources - whereas that is in reality a big problem everywhere you go. For example IRL burning coal requires oxygen, therefore energy generation competes with breathing, so on an asteroid with limited oxygen sources this is a thing that needs careful balancing. In ONI however coal generator needs no O2 removing an interesting interaction for the player to balance. as for games being fun... not all of them are. actually most are bad and not worth the time. out of the good games, the sort of which i like the most present the players with difficult situations with a wide array of tools and options to solve them. ONI may be on the better end of games, but it doesn't have the depth i would like it to have. but given how closely related the scenarios are that ONI confronts players with to real problems a NASA engineer could be tasked to solve it becomes apparent how little meaningful choices it presents the player with to approach them - compared to what reality has in store. So allow me the analogy to a 3d-shooter: it feels like exploring a game world that looks amazing, open and huge on the first glance, but then every time you stray from the marked path you just hit invisible walls and you realize how small the level actually is. that demotivates me from playing on and instead i end up reading wiki articles how similar problems are handled in reality and how many approaches there are and which has which advantages... Yeah, a mod that ultimately preserves most mass would be the goal. Given that there are geysers and vulcanos adding mass i find some loss of mass acceptable to balance it out a little. Hmm, the code fragment looks C# to me. great, that makes things quite familiar. but i'm curious: from this snippet it looks like even building and recipes stats aren't loaded from some sort of xml/json definition but all rather implemented via code? interesting choice.
  4. care to elaborate on your blood example? i don't think that should be the case. There are indeed effects that alter mass, but none should make a difference for blood, or at least i don't understand what you mean. Technically atomic mass depends also on the binding energy reducing the total mass of a atom to be slightly smaller then the mass of all its components. This is mostly only relevant for the atomic nucleus and its isotopes but technically applies to electrons and therefore chemical reactions as well. But the effect of this would only become noticeable if the electron mass were significantly heavier. Hmm, yeah it's actually a great idea. Its much faster to realize and one can test the impact on gameplay right away. and if it achieves its goal then it also stands as a very hard argument to overturn. I have made my fair share of mods for different games but haven't gotten to do it for ONI as of yet. I think i can represent most of cycles in terms of simple number changes rather then the need to implement new mechanics, so that should be actually straight forward to realize as a mod indeed. The ideas for a water cycle involving plant mechanics changes would be more complicated though, so if your are interested i would love to work on this together (and learn the tools for ONI modding in the process). But can we even do mods for the DLC as of yet? As for the challenge part... well, it comes with how maps are setup. recycling loops make it so the game is more interesting in hard environments like a space station (no renewable resources from digging tiles or geysers). but for vanilla games where everything is already plentiful it would make things maybe too easy - so maps need to be made much poorer in starting resources to provide the challenge. and then of course recycling loops have a lot of points where they can get out of balance and break down just like in reality. indeed a mod would need to focus on giving a lot of opportunity for failure to make it interesting. there were a few iterations of this cycle. which specifically are you referring to? but yeah, in general i was focusing on conserving the core elements (oxygen, hydrogen) first and didn't always look for a correct carbon balance so masses can be off. i don't think i have written down any numbers on the sieve though meaning that it should be free to balance so there is no mass defect. however someone pointed out correctly that in an early version my suggested skimmer-electrolizer loop created hydrogen at the skimmer. is that maybe what you meant? Can you elaborate why you think it adds nothing to the experience? my motivation for this was exactly because my current experience with the DLC was lacking. and no, i didn't argue that an asteroid is a closed system. but in reality when planning a habitat in an hostile environment, one usually designs many aspects to work like a closed system, as to minimalize the dependence of survival on the cooperation of an not entirely predictable environment. if we someday build a colony on the moon, we would prefer to make it so it doesn't need to mine stuff for oxygen generation but can rather run indefinitely with what it has available. But of course any bonus oxygen that can be generated on sight is always appreciated. so basically you try to make your design closed in one direction only: don't lose any valuable stuff!
  5. True, and that's part of the problem: the science attribute can only be trained by research errands, yet those are limited. So while this attribute does have a good use case it still suffers from being a dead end in terms of training. Apart from the first dupes in your colony the only way you can get it for later dupes is through starting traits when printing them.
  6. I have a lot of issues with controlling pipe flow and often make use of bridges to specify which to flow priorities. something like Supply A mainly from source B but if nothing flows from there take source C. That can be done by connecting C to the A->B pipe via a bridge where the output port lies directly A->B pipe. There are many nice tricks like that. But unfortunately in some cases it can revert the flow direction: in some cases i end up creating a flow C->A and cutting of A->B in the process. Sure, this can be fixed by adding another pipe bridge forcing a flow direction... But this is so annoying because the above described starts to look awfully complicated and taking a lot of space. not to mention that the many input and output symbols on the bridges obscure the sight and make it even more difficult to see what a setup intends to do. and often enough there are other building with pipe in/outputs around creating even more an eye hurting mess) Could we not just instead get a pipe junction element with 4 connections where we can just set which one is an input/output and specify the priorities?? it would be neat if it fit in a 1x1 tile and would look similar to a conventional 4 way pipe junction (which currently has naturally not deterministic behavior). But if that's not an option i would be happy to get one directional pipes. That would already simplify most of my pipe setups.
  7. No, a shuttle can carry any amount of resources, but not via storage bins because those have a capacity. use conveyor loaders + chute. There is no limit on how much lose materials can lie on a single tile. so if you have the time you could overload your shuttle to have transport the mass of a whole black hole. applies only to solid materials though. Well, for liquids you could potentially do something similar abusing mopping + continuous fluid resupply. but i don't know a way to achieve that for gases ... yet... (other then freezing them ofc)
  8. Unfortunately like a few other attributes, research and science skills are unfortunately a dead end. they are in high demand at the start of the game but are never used once the research tree is done. So science dupes, need a job for later on. Yeah, researching any kind of improvements to building processing efficiency makes a lot of sense. However, i'd suggest that it only comes as a temporary buff rather than a permanent bonus (so science will always be needed!). but any such buff should last for a substantial amount of time. also they should apply to a single building rather than to globally. i wouldn't mind if being able to apply such a buff would require to research something first. Hmm, it would be cool if towards the end game most processing buildings could be buffed to a degree where they to stop destry mass and making resource recycling possible. maybe science could also be applied to geysers and volcanos? research dupes might have the ability to accelerate or slow down next idle phases perhaps.
  9. Yeah, the whole medical system is currently very lacluster in all aspects. see here:
  10. Hmm, honestly i actually like the current concept of power slugs which makes the basically anit-solar panels (used in tandem one has permanent power generation). The main issue with power slugs is rather their massive metal consumption - and that's mostly because how little the devs care about sustainability. Since the game doesn't allow resource recycling cycles nor did the devs bother to think much about mid to long term gameplay, we only have a few volcanos as our only metal source. The DLC in particular comes with a special metal scarcity while the devs add stuff that destroys metal left and right (power plugs, oxygen masks) because the maps have more then enough metal for the first 10 cycles and everything besides that is apparently long term gameplay, so no need to bother balancing it. Hmm, i just noticed how salty and upset i get about it. But then again the apparent lack of any consideration for sustainability including in the early cycles really annoys me because how one dimensional and linear it makes the whole DLC gameplay. As for the power slugs... just change their diet. maybe it's okay that they eating some metal. but maybe after consuming a specified amount a power slug should become "fully charged/developed" (maybe also change visually like it does from a baby to a mature slug) and from that point on it will have a different diet needing something more sustainable? that would unfortunately still deplete metal because slugs don't live forever and "charging" new ones would cost new metal. But that can be tuned to a manageable amount... unless of course a dead slug would drop something that could be recycled back into metal. And even if their power output remains the same (which is low on average for a late game power option) if their diet is easy to maintain, it doesn't really matter.
  11. This suggestion here could potentially fix this issue. So keep it 1 material per tile - what i suggest would keep it that way (since there is only one base material) yet other materials are just passively contained through the mixture. Already now there are lose objects that can also occupy the same tile, however they are allowed to have a lot more interactions with the environment than what materials contained in a mixture would. So if this would be well implemented it could potentially even improve performance. I absolutely agree. We need a proper airlock building. There is a mod that adds that but i think as much as liquid locks are used there is no discussion that this is a very much needed device. Therefore it should have been added to the game a long time ago. Though any change to old liquid locks machanics would be annoying to existing colonies in vanilla, this doesn't apply for the DLC.
  12. Indeed. I intended to do something waterweed but postponed it until i can get salt water to the colony. But apparently salt water cannot be produced at all so this is a dead end. A geyser is maybe one thing, but there should definitively be ways to create bine and salt water out of salt and water... i mean in reality that's quite trivial because salt dissolved in water on its own but apparently impossible in ONI. So that's weird and again deprives the player of options.
  13. Every building has just one priority? I'm not sure why you think it's a problem. Multiplayer would be just like single player except that your your friends could issue orders, too. You would see planed buildings and changed priorities that any other player set as if you would have changed them. That's not a multiplayer mode one could play with random people, but with friends that's a great fun to plan and manage a colony together. at least for some of us it's one of the best multiplayer experiences one could have. There might be a different multiplayer mode where people don't share the same base... but i don' think that would work well with how the game is setup. separate colonies make barely any sense at all because if player don't really interact much with each other (or not at all for the first 50 cycles or so) then forcing everyone to play with the same speed an game time makes little sense to me. Anyhow, if you want a more elaborated argument, look this thread:
  14. Take water, and note how many mixtures we already have mainly made up of liquid water: water polluted water salt water brine mud polluted mud slime when i was thinking about material conserving recycling loops (here) i found it difficult to follow an element though a processing chain since it's not clear what polluted water is exactly made of and in most cases this makes ONI resource processing a lot more complicated and weird then it is in reality. Anyhow, on a different observation i noticed that ONI has already a system that could maybe simplify quite a few things: germs! Yes, every material tile or lose entity has a germ property. Hence i was thinking what if the same system could be used to make material mixtures? Mixtures is a general material property, just like germs are. It acts quite the same to germs, except that instead of a germ like "food poisoning" there is a material like "algae" and it's amount is given in mass. For example a water 1000kg water tile with a mixture of 60kg salt (instead of having a separate salt water material). But of course unlike germs materials in a mixture don't multiply on their own, nor do they die off. Just like germs stay on fluids and gases in pipes, so would mixtures. Materials in a mixture can slowly spread to other tiles, e.g. when a water tile with salt in it is surrounded by clear water tiles, some of the salt may spread there. For each material there are limits how much other materials it can contain in mixtures. For example water could contain a maximum of 30% salt (brine) and a max of 10% algae (p water?). Other materials may not allow certain material to mix with them (old never mixing with water?) Gases could have high mixture limits for other gases and could mix naturally just when two different gas tiles are next to each other. A tile with a gas mixture could change it's base material, when another gas in the mixture has more mass than the base material. Gas tile dynamics: well, we wouldn't have single CO2 gas tiles wandering in a O2 atmosphere. Instead gas mixtures would slowly interact with each other equalizing the mixture ratios over time. So probably CO2 would thus take longer to accumulate at the bottom of a colony. In some gases elements of a mixture may impact core properties of the base material, like salt in water drops its freezing point. This would happen only at certain threshold levels. e.g. water gets the properties of salt water when there is more then 5% salt in it and with more then 20% it takes the properties of brine. Those thresholds also change the visuals of the tile. Sure, that would require some changes to the game, for example for the sieve and desalinator. In general some additional processes may be needed to separate mixtures. On the other hand in some cases irrigation could also bring along the fertilizer in a mixture. In general it means that transporting solids dissolve in liquids through pipes would pose a new interesting option.
  15. Hmm, i'm thinking if this could be bent as not being entirely unrealistic. I mean, when we are too hot we do heave a cooling mechanism: sweating. And different cloths interact with that mechanism differently. a thin west for example will allow the sweat to evaporate much easier then when wearing a sweater (hence the name btw?). Doesn't exactly work the same in the other direction with heating up since that's just burning calories but whatever.