Can we talk about Wormwood

[TemporarySolutn]

On 11/27/2020 at 6:31 AM, Zuffie said:

bruh he is useless

That's just incorrect

[MondayNight]

8 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

It isn't niche at all but you don't seem to be in the know how so Ill enlighten you. Bat bats are the most synergistic healing item in wormwoods toolkit EARLY GAME (I did say early game. Late game everyone can do everything). What's more, everything contained within the bat bats recipe can be auto farmed. Firstly, the main ingredient can be obtained nightly by simply fencing two bunny men at a sinkhole. Secondly, Wormwood can mass create living logs and they are self sustaining. A 510 hp "healing stick" (as I call them) can each provide the 2 living logs to the next bat bat at a net gain of 470hp. Thirdly, purple gems are plentiful via bosses, hound waves, vargs, and the ruins. The sanity exchange is the best part! Who else has the best sanity management than Wormwood? He takes no penalty from green mushrooms and can keep mushroom planters churning year around non-stop. Truthfully, I did forget about obtaining bones through spoiled fish but then again ocean fishing/fishing is a massive waste of time (IMHO). Healing salve biggest weakness is in the growth/amount of reeds and their sporadic placement AND they need great amount of investment (good late game).  Healing salves can also not be auto farmed as they require at the minimum shovels, pickaxe, or gunpowder/slurtle slime. All of this within a solo scenario which I did mention in the very first comment of my post. You can totally try to sleep in a tent in the middle of a dragonfly battle or hound wave. Let me know how that work out for you.

You certainly enlightened me about something, yet most likely not what you believe it is. While Bat Wings and Living Logs (more so for Wormwood) can be described as early game items, Purple Gems most certainly aren't. They totally depend on RNG, either for having Bishop Set Piece on Forest shard, getting Blue and Red gems from graves (15.35% chance) or Tumbleweeds (0.04%, 0.02%, respectively 0.01% chance), waiting for Earthquake's RNG (1.6% chance each) in Caves shard or going to Ruins, again an RNG endeavor for which, if you plan to ride without any healing as Wormwood... what can I say?! Good luck, you will certainly need it. If you were to write me, instead of "early game item", more of a mid-game niche strategy, yeah - sure. But giving Bat Bat as early game go-healing general advice - that's beyond "playing Wormwood correctly". Is borderline "try-hard". All of this while Healing Salves for example are incredibly easy to obtain by comparison. Because, in case of truly bad RNG, you have, for your advice, option 1) kill some spiders, mine some boulders and burn a stack of petals/ferns/twigs/grass/rot, use Science Machine for research; or 2) ride Ruins for purple gems (RNG dependent, once more), use Shadow Manipulator to research. And, of course, you don't employ tents for heals in boss fights, was a given. Plus early game Hound waves are a joke, if you are competent enough to ride Ruins for purple gems used on Bat Bats healing-exclusively item, you are competent enough to deal with a max of 6 Hounds via kiting without taking any damage - we're talking in "early game" context here, aka max of first Winter time-frame.

[HowlVoid]

7 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

You certainly enlightened me about something, yet most likely not what you believe it is. While Bat Wings and Living Logs (more so for Wormwood) can be described as early game items, Purple Gems most certainly aren't. They totally depend on RNG, either for having Bishop Set Piece on Forest shard, getting Blue and Red gems from graves (15.35% chance) or Tumbleweeds (0.04%, 0.02%, respectively 0.01% chance), waiting for Earthquake's RNG (1.6% chance each) in Caves shard or going to Ruins, again an RNG endeavor for which, if you plan to ride without any healing as Wormwood... what can I say?! Good luck, you will certainly need it. If you were to write me, instead of "early game item", more of a mid-game niche strategy, yeah - sure. But giving Bat Bat as early game go-healing general advice - that's beyond "playing Wormwood correctly". Is borderline "try-hard". All of this while Healing Salves for example are incredibly easy to obtain by comparison. Because, in case of truly bad RNG, you have, for your advice, option 1) kill some spiders, mine some boulders and burn a stack of petals/ferns/twigs/grass/rot, use Science Machine for research; or 2) ride Ruins for purple gems (RNG dependent, once more), use Shadow Manipulator to research. And, of course, you don't employ tents for heals in boss fights, was a given. Plus early game Hound waves are a joke, if you are competent enough to ride Ruins for purple gems used on Bat Bats healing-exclusively item, you are competent enough to deal with a max of 6 Hounds via kiting without taking any damage - we're talking in "early game" context here, aka max of first Winter time-frame.

I think you are assuming far too much when I said "use correctly" and missed the point entirely. The point was that he is far more than just a character centered around farming. That's all I meant by it and then stated his best healing method. If you cant see how great it is then I honestly cant help you. Purple gems are rng?! What?! You can get tons in the ruins. You bring 3 bat wings and a marble suit + moggles before you go in. Prefab a tent in case they rot. You only use the tent in an emergency. The length a tent takes to heal is very time consuming. 68 hp at the cost of around 30 sanity, that's just 3 seeds. You are looking into this way too much and its borderline try-hard. Rushing the ruins is by far not hard nor an elitist strategy. You are down there for crowns so why not get the purple gems while you're at it. 3 purple gems and you have 1230 hp in healing. That's 61 glands, 61 stone and 122 ash. And its done just by sitting at base. You kill dragonfly thats another 2-4 bat bats. You kill klaus and thats another bat bat. Im not sure why youre so hell bent on refuting their power?  

[ArubaroBeefalo]

21 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You can get tons in the ruins. You bring 3 bat wings and a marble suit + moggles before you go in.

how do you farm purple gems for batbats to go to the ruins to farm purple gems?

 

edit: i dont see why klei would buff him even more.

he loses his exclusivity of being the only non rng related way to farm living logs but gnomes arent a good fount to mass produce them.

he loses being the only way of planting seeds without wasting tons of resources but he still being a farm beast since any other can plant in no time the stupid amount of seeds that we can get with the new farms. Before was stupid the differences between having wormwood and not having him to farm veggies, now is balanced

a new healing sources came with the new weeds, isnt good  but doesnt hurt to craft it when you have the material in hand

his compost become much better and also a good fertilicer

 

all of this has become, imo, in drama to the level of wicketbottom nerf

[HowlVoid]

17 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how do you farm purple gems for batbats to go to the ruins to farm purple gems?

 

edit: i dont see why klei would buff him even more.

he loses his exclusivity of being the only non rng related way to farm living logs but gnomes arent a good fount to mass produce them.

he loses being the only way of planting seeds without wasting tons of resources but he still being a farm beast since any other can plant in no time the stupid amount of seeds that we can get with the new farms. Before was stupid the differences between having wormwood and not having him to farm veggies, now is balanced

a new healing sources came with the new weeds, isnt good  but doesnt hurt to craft it when you have the material in hand

his compost become much better and also a good fertilicer

 

all of this has become, imo, in drama to the level of wicketbottom nerf

I bring the materials to craft a bat bat and then craft it in the ruins (tent is in case they rot). The marble armor is to allow tanking one bishop to get things rolling. What Im saying is that I think this update doesn't affect wormwood at all. He is still a great character. His strength has always been how he is able to craft living logs/manage his sanity/food doesn't affect his health and is by far not useless. The excess amount of seeds that can be obtained is actually a buff (lots of free sanity and rot)! A Seed and a crop for planting in the ground is pretty great. Still, if he gets more buffs then I welcome them all the same. 

[krtoween]

My idea is to have him be able to make some sort of irrigation system that waters plants automatically and needs to be refilled with water occasionally,so that way he has a new crafting item exclusive to him but everyone can benefit from it.Maybe made out of leaves and twigs so it keeps the theme of him.

[jpmrocks]

13 hours ago, Zeklo said:

I disagree with this sentiment. The issue with Wormwood's gardening perks right now is that the same thing can be achieved without the character.

Plant seeds without a hoe?
Saves a couple resources early-game irrelevant mid-to-end game.

Can understand plants needs?
A hat can do this.

Can plant crops in bulk?
The new plots are dirt cheap. Same deal, saves a few resources early game. That's it.

Think more in line with Wolfgang. Why is he revered so much?
Because the x6 damage multipler you can get with him can't be achieved otherwise, and is basically always relevant.

Why is Wurt controversial?
Because her 'main' perk can essentially be achieved with Bunnymen. Not quite exact, but near enough to have people split.

What Wormwood needs [in relation to gardening] is a non-structure/item that benefits the new system in an irreplaceable manner.

Need to chop trees? Dont bother with Woodie, all he does is save resources early game.

Also, it's an Ancient Crafting station helmet. Not the standard one. So, Wormwood has the perks of a late game item right out the gate.

Wolfgang is revered because he has extremely broken, braindead gameplay. It's one of the reasons why a lot of long time players want him nerfed. He has no downsides, and gets a 6x damage multiplier, as well as an increased movement speed. Comparing Wormwood to Wolfgang shows how little you know the game.

That's not even remotely why Wurt is "controversial". She's seen in negative light because she's the only selfish character (funnily enough, she actual benefits Wormwood with a merm king). She doesnt provide to a group early game like all other characters, she provides to groups in late game. She's the only character designed with long term in mind, (well Wormwood too, unless you count Spring start). All other characters are designed around Winter being the cutoff point.

Also, he has that. Compost Wraps are the best fertilizer in the game (granted, Klei has confirmed theyre going to buff nutrients) but Wormwood's Compost Wrap is the only Nutrient that covers all 3 needs (Glommer's does this as well, but Compost Wrap is stronger).

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

how do you farm purple gems for batbats to go to the ruins to farm purple gems?

 

edit: i dont see why klei would buff him even more.

he loses his exclusivity of being the only non rng related way to farm living logs but gnomes arent a good fount to mass produce them.

he loses being the only way of planting seeds without wasting tons of resources but he still being a farm beast since any other can plant in no time the stupid amount of seeds that we can get with the new farms. Before was stupid the differences between having wormwood and not having him to farm veggies, now is balanced

a new healing sources came with the new weeds, isnt good  but doesnt hurt to craft it when you have the material in hand

his compost become much better and also a good fertilicer

 

all of this has become, imo, in drama to the level of wicketbottom nerf

Klei has confirmed theyre going to puff Wormwood more, tho this is more in ties with the Nutrients.

2 hours ago, krtoween said:

My idea is to have him be able to make some sort of irrigation system that waters plants automatically and needs to be refilled with water occasionally,so that way he has a new crafting item exclusive to him but everyone can benefit from it.Maybe made out of leaves and twigs so it keeps the theme of him.

I want iron from Hamlet to get in, just because I'd love to have things like Sprinklers and Oscillating fans. Even the Thunderhelm would be nice.

[viberr]

2 hours ago, jpmrocks said:

Comparing Wormwood to Wolfgang shows how little you know the game.

i really wouldn't say that to @Zeklo considering the guy wastes too much time researching lore and most probably playing the game(he also has a lot of good guides on stuff so yeah zeklo does know a lot about DST)

[jpmrocks]

1 hour ago, stranger again said:

i really wouldn't say that to @Zeklo considering the guy wastes too much time researching lore and most probably playing the game(he also has a lot of good guides on stuff so yeah zeklo does know a lot about DST)

Apparently he doesnt read his own info then if he's comparing Wormwood to Wolfgang, factually the strongest character in the game. That's like having NBA pros compete against paraplegics in basketball. 

[ZTheNecromancer]

10 minutes ago, jpmrocks said:

Apparently he doesnt read his own info then if he's comparing Wormwood to Wolfgang, factually the strongest character in the game. That's like having NBA pros compete against paraplegics in basketball. 

And that's where you're wrong.

It depends on what you mean by "Strongest" because the situation it's used in can different depending on the context. Strongest in terms of Combat? Yes. Strongest in terms of farming? No. Strongest in terms of Gathering? Or Seafaring? Or base Building? Nope! Your argument is based on a false cause fallacy. In which correlation does not = causation. In this case you're thinking that because @Zeklo made a comparison (Expressing their opinions about Wormwood) Which you deemed as wrong, means that they don't know anything about the game.

Or, Comparing their opinions about characters and you're train of thought & opinions (In your mind) = That Zeklo knows nothing about the game. Which isn't true in the slightest. In fact they probably know a lot more about the game than me and you combined.

In short you're kinda being a Sophomaniac and delusionally infallible, kinda like a stereotypical cryptozoologist. (Who try to make fact fit their beliefs.)

 

[YumoS]

On 11/27/2020 at 1:12 PM, bruhmoment23 said:

Wow. Your complex and insightful reasoning and arguements as to why Wormwood is trash tier, bottom of the barrel character really stood out to me mr op. I can't help but notice the effort and research you have put into this analysis. Astounding work, truly, such marvelous depictions are worthy of a grand prize, here have my reddit gold.

sorry. had to.

[Maxil20]

17 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Plant seeds without a hoe?
Saves a couple resources early-game irrelevant mid-to-end game

I disagree with this a bit. It does actually save quite a bit of time in any point of the game. Other characters have to till and then sow the seeds, which is substantially longer then just planting them, and there’s always a chance to accidentally over-till a spot and start again. With wormwood, you right click once and all works out. It’s not revolutionary, but it is noticeable.

Also, I’m confused as to why wormwood farming specifically is bad because he can’t grow giant crops without tilled soil. Wormwood simply needs to talk to a plant once if it’s in season and the plant will grant a crop + 1 seed, assuming overcrowding isn’t met. It’s certainly still useful, especially since the effect will transition into winter/summer with their respective season crops and you can replant the spare seeds to upkeep the harvests.

Overall, I do think wormwood isn’t quite as good as farming back then, but I also believe he was the only one that didn’t make it feel underwhelming, which I feel like the farming rework wanted to fix. Even then, he’s still got some neat perks that make him stand out. I do wish he got more unique buffs, but the devs already seem to be looking into that route as well.

[Zeklo]

4 hours ago, jpmrocks said:

-snip-

I'm going to try and reiterate my point under the assumption that you did not understand it, and not that you're simply choosing to ignore it 

My point is: The best character perks are ones that cannot he obtained/achieved by other means.

This is an opinion.

Honestly Woodie is in a weird spot right now, and I haven't been keeping up with him. Is Maxwell still a better chopper? Either way, the two of them provide a relatively convenient method of chopping down trees quick. Bearger could possibly contest? But that's a seasonal thing. Dunno.

I wouldn't really call Ancient Tab items late game, but regardless that doesn't change my initial point which you can reread above.

I'm not even sure what your nitpick with my statement on Wolfgang is. Yes, he's broken. Mostly due to his insane damage potential. We're not disagreeing here. My point with comparing them is that it is impossible to obtain Wolfgang's level of damage without Wolfgang whereas it is very possible to obtain Wormwood's gardening perks without Wormwood.

Wurt is hardly the only selfish character. Most people by now are completely aware she's an late-game character too. It's personal opinion in this regard, but I find more people arguing that bunnymen are better/cheaper than merms than her slower playstyle, but that's just personal bias so I digress. If anything they go hand in hand. It's much easier to get bunnymen early game than Warrior Merms. So goes that argument at least.

I was under the impression that Glommer Goop & Compost Wrap give the same nutrient values, but I'm not at my PC to check atm.

And finally, there's nothing 'factually' wrong about comparing things. No one is saying Wolfgang isn't powerful. Nor is anyone saying Wormwood needs to be as 'powerful'.

I'm stating a reason why I believe Wolfgang's perk design is good while Wormwood's isn't. I'm comparing design choices, not strength.

[jpmrocks]

1 hour ago, ZeeDragon said:

And that's where you're wrong.

It depends on what you mean by "Strongest" because the situation it's used in can different depending on the context. Strongest in terms of Combat? Yes. Strongest in terms of farming? No. Strongest in terms of Gathering? Or Seafaring? Or base Building? Nope! Your argument is based on a false cause fallacy. In which correlation does not = causation. In this case you're thinking that because @Zeklo made a comparison (Expressing their opinions about Wormwood) Which you deemed as wrong, means that they don't know anything about the game.

Or, Comparing their opinions about characters and you're train of thought & opinions (In your mind) = That Zeklo knows nothing about the game. Which isn't true in the slightest. In fact they probably know a lot more about the game than me and you combined.

In short you're kinda being a Sophomaniac and delusionally infallible, kinda like a stereotypical cryptozoologist. (Who try to make fact fit their beliefs.)

 

"I use big words to make myself sound smart by completely ignoring the argument, that'll show him!"

 

30 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm going to try and reiterate my point under the assumption that you did not understand it, and not that you're simply choosing to ignore it 

My point is: The best character perks are ones that cannot he obtained/achieved by other means.

This is an opinion.

Honestly Woodie is in a weird spot right now, and I haven't been keeping up with him. Is Maxwell still a better chopper? Either way, the two of them provide a relatively convenient method of chopping down trees quick. Bearger could possibly contest? But that's a seasonal thing. Dunno.

I wouldn't really call Ancient Tab items late game, but regardless that doesn't change my initial point which you can reread above.

I'm not even sure what your nitpick with my statement on Wolfgang is. Yes, he's broken. Mostly due to his insane damage potential. We're not disagreeing here. My point with comparing them is that it is impossible to obtain Wolfgang's level of damage without Wolfgang whereas it is very possible to obtain Wormwood's gardening perks without Wormwood.

Wurt is hardly the only selfish character. Most people by now are completely aware she's an late-game character too. It's personal opinion in this regard, but I find more people arguing that bunnymen are better/cheaper than merms than her slower playstyle, but that's just personal bias so I digress. If anything they go hand in hand. It's much easier to get bunnymen early game than Warrior Merms. So goes that argument at least.

I was under the impression that Glommer Goop & Compost Wrap give the same nutrient values, but I'm not at my PC to check atm.

And finally, there's nothing 'factually' wrong about comparing things. No one is saying Wolfgang isn't powerful. Nor is anyone saying Wormwood needs to be as 'powerful'.

I'm stating a reason why I believe Wolfgang's perk design is good while Wormwood's isn't. I'm comparing design choices, not strength.

By your point being that best perks are ones unique to a character, 3/4 of the cast are terrible. Wes, Wormwood, Woodie, Maxwell, Wickerbottom, Wilson, Wendy, WX, Wortox, Wurt, Wigfrid, basically anyone not Wolfgang, Warly or Winona, as Wolfgang is the only one who can 6.6x damage, Warly, who's needed for Wolf to go beyond his natural damage increase, and Winona is the only one who brings catapults to the table. Everyone else, according to your logic, has bad perks.

Ancient Tab I would say is end game, as the Labyrinth and all the ancient gear down below is very much designed with end game in mind, strong weapons, strong armor, extremely useful tools, etc. Even the new Library thing brings a lot of end game stuff.

My issue with comparing Wolfgang to Wormwood is that Wolfgang is factually a horrendously overpowered character. His perk being great isnt that it's unique to himself, it's that it's so stupidly strong it takes all difficulty out of the game by simply eating a meatball. His downsides are nonexistant, and overall, is just brainless to compare THE metagod character to literally anyone else, because Wolfgang will factually be the better character. If you had compared Wormwood to, let's say Winona, or Wurt, or Wortox, or anyone NOT the metagod Wolfgang, it wouldve been a much more just comparison.

And when I say Wurt is the only selfish character, she's the only character where everything she does benefits only herself (except for, I suppose, Wolfgang). No other character in the game with unique craftables is remotely close to how selfish Wurt is (granted, Wurt is designed around this). 

With fertilizer, Compost Wrap is the strongest, You would need both Glommer Goop AND regular Compost to have the same effect as Compost Wrap (however, the devs confirmed they are planning on buffing Nutrients, so who knows how this will change, but Worm's will still probably be top tier unless Super Nutrients and Compost get a megabuff.)

[Zeklo]

46 minutes ago, jpmrocks said:

By your point being that best perks are ones unique to a character, 3/4 of the cast are terrible. Wes, Wormwood, Woodie, Maxwell, Wickerbottom, Wilson, Wendy, WX, Wortox, Wurt, Wigfrid, basically anyone not Wolfgang, Warly or Winona, as Wolfgang is the only one who can 6.6x damage, Warly, who's needed for Wolf to go beyond his natural damage increase, and Winona is the only one who brings catapults to the table. Everyone else, according to your logic, has bad perks.

Wes, yeah. Wormwood, mostly. Woodie, somewhat. Wilson, basically. WX, maybe (stacking speed tho)? Wurt, a bit.

Maxwell maybe not. His shadow minions are unmatched at harvesting at least. And like Maxil stated, Wormwood being able to save time is useful. Time is valuable, so I'd say Maxwell's perk is ok. But barely.

Wickerbottom absolutely not. Here books are the only way to insta-grow things or place tentacles and etc.

Wendy, or Abigail rather, can grant a stacking damage bonus. Not to mention Abby has AoE damage.

Wortox's AoE heal is unmatched. His soul-hopping is basically just a cheap orange staff though.

Wigfrid has a built in damage modifier and defense which stacks with other modifiers. Not to mention here new songs with unachievable effects outside them.

Comparing Wormwood's perks to Wolfgang's perks was just to make it an easily understand comparison. Essentially any of these other not otherwise obtainable perks work as well.