have you defeated the "hard"bosses of DST?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

So it seems fighting Crab King single handedly, using magic weapon with its designed purpose can be considered "cheese", but this isn't?

 

nobody says that it isnt cheese

[Sapientis]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

nobody says that it isnt cheese

Okay, It just struck me that Ice Staff method was pointed out as cheesing.

When Crab king was released developers took down putting him to sleep as a way of stopping his casting but freezing wasn't changed. I consider it as them saying "it's ok".
But maybe I just don't understand the term "cheese", because I don't see using healthy and inventive techniques as something that should be looked down upon.

Why waste ten crowns, tens of healing items (maybe pan flutes) and several days for fighting Bee Queen alone, when you can build a couple of hutches around the Hive and be done with it any time she re-spawns?  You still use many resources, you still have to prepare for fight, but in a different way. One of these methods is more efficient and way easier for a player to perform, so it's called "cheese" and isn't considered a "fair method" of killing a boss?

Keep in mind most of raid bosses that were added to DST were designed to deal with as a group of survivors. Playing in a group means wasting time for previously mentioned hutches would be unreasonable, as there's high chance there would be at least one Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid or Winona, who make the fight easy as a piece of cake. Besides even with 4-6 Wilsons that fight is quite easy.

For me Misery Toadstool is easier to kill than Bee Queen, if we are talking about strict no-cheese solo fights. The biggest problem with Toadstool in general is underestimating how big of an item-sink he is. The fight itself is much easier, so I don't understand why there's no Bee Queen no-cheese question.

Why there's no Dragonfly "legit" (no walls, no Pan Flute, no Water Balloons, no sleep, no Ice Staff CHEESE)??

It's the same with Ancient Guardian for me. He and his little arena is just poorly designed (mechanically, because I love the concept behind it). There's little reason for indestructible tombstones next to him, and there's no reason for that low range on his attacks. A good thing is his arena is randomly generated, so sometimes there's no way for blocking him, forcing the player to face him fairly. And the fight, although repetitive, can be quite tricky, as he's fast and can hit pretty hard with double uppercut.
I'm sure developers are aware how easy he is to block and clap down, yet they do nothing about it. For years.
Why would a player bother to waste resources to kill him "legit" if developers don't bother?

If we're talking about bragging rights here, sure, you're the boss if you killed Crab King with a Pearl and 8 opals not "cheesing" him as normies who use Ice Staves, boat patches, oars, Weather Pains and whatever else, but please don't call it "legit".

Legit means legal - done in conformance with the rules, and using intended by developers mechanics (like freezing Crab King to stop casting abilities, walling Lava Pools off to get rid of Lavae or using Weather Pains on Ancient Fuelweaver to get rid of Woven Shadows) to defeat any boss IS legitimate.

Is using Wolfgang legit? Character with double damage and speed boost? Is using Warly's Spicy Volt Goat Chaud-Froid on a wet target legit? It basically makes the fight 3 times shorter, 6 times when you combine the two, but no one mentioned it as a cheese.

 

It's just my point of view, we can agree or not, but cheese can be somewhat difficult to define. As long as there's no abusing console commands or unintended mechanics (like crossing borders to defeat Bee Queen was and even lureplants for AFW) the method is legit for me.

I think it's like thinking that having an advantage means winning is not fair. But hey, life isn't.

 

TL;DR: I don't consider "cheese" as not "legit". In my opinion questions in the survey should be called "no-cheese" with specific explanation what it means instead of "legit".

[Yuuko]

Exactly what @Sapientis said.

I get that the OP wants to ask "who has beaten these bosses without XXX strategy" that's a fair question, but to call things "cheese" or "legit" is implying something negative to many people.

For example - ice staff on Crab King.  The reason being frozen cancels his spell is because the developers wrote the code that makes it cancel if he's frozen.  The reason he can even be frozen is because the developers wrote the code as such.  Utilizing these elements of the game design is not "cheesing."  These are functions of the game as intended.

Klei didn't make Don't Starve Together to be a combat simulator.  This is a sandbox game that strongly features emergent gameplay.  Klei has always encouraged players coming up with unique solutions to the problems presented in their games.  Restricting yourself to some arbitrary ruleset to consider a playthrough "legit" is all from your own mind, not Klei's.

Here are some definitions that I ascribe to, you'll face less pushback if you consider these.

Cheese: Using something in an unconventional way to create a greatly unfair advantage.
Example: Using a dwarf star, stack of twigs, and flingo to perpetually freeze Crab King during fight.
not-example: Using ice staff to freeze Crab King, wall to block lavae, pan flute to put mobs to sleep, turrets / shootious to attack mobs.
Logic: Ice Staff is specifically designed to be used to freeze mobs, and Crab King is designed to be frozen.  The flingo can freeze mobs and is working as intended, but it wasn't designed as a combat structure.  Using this to chain freeze is cheese, but not glitch or cheat.

Cheat: Breaking the rules of the game.
Example: Using a mod or console command to view the entire map without exploring it.
not-example: Getting Ancient Guardian stuck on graves or a pillar so that he can't reach you while you attack.
Logic: Console commands and mods largely fall under the definition of "cheating" because they modify the game, or expose hidden values.  While many of these are cheating many players don't care about them based on the value of the advantage they present.  For example combined status mod gives you the season lengths which are static.  Anyone can figure out the season lengths with a simple chart that is true for all default worlds, so this short cut is seen as acceptable.  However if you were on a server with variable season lengths the perspective would change and the players would likely view this mod negatively.  Few people would disregard your achievements with mods that are viewed as acceptable, but there is value in achievements completed without any type of mod / cheat enabled, even if its effect is not meaningful to the achievement.

Glitch: Creating a situation in the game which exploits flaws in code to allow you access that would normally be unavailable.
Example: Pushing yourself off of the map into the void in the caves allowing you to run around freely.
not-example: Baiting pigs with food to keep them outside of their homes at night.
Logic: Similar to cheating this one comes to "breaking the rules."  Cheating does this through code injection, packet jamming, faking inputs, ect to give logic to the game that was not there before.  Glitching uses the logic which is already in the game exploiting flaws to create an advantage.

as a side note ** due to lack of updates and prevalence of use some glitches are considered part of the normal play pattern in some games, and are not seen as breaking the rules.  This is actually pretty common, and some game developers have even embraced certain glitches in patches / sequels turning them into real features.  Also some glitches take a lot of skill to perform without a bot and performing these can become their own achievements.  Glitching is not always considered cheating.

[viberr]

49 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Exactly what @Sapientis said.

I get that the OP wants to ask "who has beaten these bosses without XXX strategy" that's a fair question, but to call things "cheese" or "legit" implying something negative to many people.

 

truth be told i just wanted to know ho many people killed enraged klaus and the other 3 i thought of randomly

im not really trying to be negative and i do agree that cheese's are ok but i just wanted to know how many people killed crab king without using ice staves(which to some people is considered a cheese but im personally ok with it)

and by "legit" i just meant without going into console commands and insta killing the boss or using a mod to insta kill the boss

sorry if i bothered you 

k hope you all have a wonderful day or night wherever you are in the world 

 

[ShadowDuelist]

20 minutes ago, stranger again said:

truth be told i just wanted to know ho many people killed enraged klaus and the other 3 i thought of randomly

Story time: In a 2000+ days old public server, we were about 6 or 7 people with endgame gear, who could absolutely demolish misery toad, bearger, bee queen, fuelweaver and dragonfly.

So one winter we got cocky and said "Enraged Klaus, who's in?" and we all went there, with our shiniest armors, trusting it was going to be a fun and challenging fight, but in the end we'd win sort of fast.

We were wrong.

It was the biggest massacre I've witnessed on any public server, I lost count of the amount of life amulets used that day, someone even had to run to base to bring more amulets TWICE and still all we were doing most of the time was getting his attention while others were reviving and healing. It lasted for at least an hour until we finally gave up.

My "most often killed by" still displays Klaus, just because of that day

TL; DR: I'm not fighting that thing again!

[Sapientis]

3 hours ago, stranger again said:

sorry if i bothered you 

Don't be, I just needed the clarification, no hard feelings! 

Also thanks for the explanation @Shosuko, this confirmed I was somewhat right about my approach to the game.

On the other hand it seems like blocking Fuelweaver, telepoofing outside of his arena and killing him from the distance is fair and square, although cheesy (?), because lureplants or spider dens weren't designed as combat entities. Or were they? They have health, so maybe it's just a combination of that and Fuelweaver having no possibility to destroy them while he wants to take the Ancient Key out of the Gateway?
For the record: I've never used that technique, I trained solo FW fight many times and what I can say is that even one additional player makes that fight much easier. There's just so much going on in the inventory management, especially after cage bone attack was tweaked. Pillars are quite tricky to use.

But this makes me question a couple of methods I would consider legal (so repeatable on a public server, without any mods or console, and without abusing glitches), but I could see them considered cheesy or unfair given your definitions (would be grateful if you let me know what do you think about those):

1. Ancient Guardian's arena and himself were pretty much designed for blocking him somewhere and just clap. I don't consider it cheese, I consider it is a poor mechanical design.
   I perform that usually, funnily enough the only time I had no place to block him was on a Wormwood ruins rush. It was surprisingly problematic, mostly because I wasn't used to it, but the fight is boring repetitive and you can pause it almost any time you want, as he doesn't reset once you leave the area. I'd love Klei to put some work on the Guardian. Just grow his horn a couple of millimetres, so he can't be blocked
2. Mentioned above Fuelweaver block and Houndius Shootius. Seems cheesy and unfair to me, although legit.
3. Killing Ancient Fuelweaver with Tail o' Three Cats while standing inside Ancient Fences (it was uploaded here on the forum under insane Wendy FW speedrun). It might seem cheesy but I don't think it is (given your definitions). It's just mechanical flaw, yet to me it seems unfair (didn't try it and I would only try it to check if it really works).
4. Blocking Moose/Goose on fossil fragments / blocking Gem Deers with walls and signs and Klaus with Loot Stash and Stagehand. It removes all magic attacks and any movement from Klaus, even when he's enraged.
   I used against M/G, but never did this against Klaus. He is probably my favourite boss fight design.
5. Using swarm of bees against Enraged Klaus (joeshmocoolstuff) or against Crab King (you can actually use Bee Mines around your boat, circle CK once, so they all detonate and row in bigger distance trying to dodge geysers so he doesn't freeze them so frequently; when your boat is about to sink place another boat, gather boards from your previous one and repeat until he's dead)
   These actually seem to be interesting ways for defeating those enemies. Fair? Maybe not entirely. Cheesy? Seems they aren't, Bee Mines are used as intended and who actually uses them for anything else? I don't know anyone...
6. Blocking Deerclops or Bearger using cactus and Stagehand, so they can be automatically killed with even one catapult (I saw it in interesting methods for dealing with bosses thread here on the forum).
7. Unintentional blocking of Ancient Guardian with repetitive attacks (he sometimes just stops and can be clapped to death)
   Not an unfamiliar thing I'm afraid, poor design strikes again.
8. Unintentional blocking of Klaus with a sleeping moleworm (apparently it happened on DontStarveJazzy twitch channel).

[Yuuko]

38 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Don't be, I just needed the clarification, no hard feelings! 

Also thanks for the explanation @Shosuko, this confirmed I was somewhat right about my approach to the game.

On the other hand it seems like blocking Fuelweaver, telepoofing outside of his arena and killing him from the distance is fair and square, although cheesy (?), because lureplants or spider dens weren't designed as combat entities. Or were they? They have health, so maybe it's just a combination of that and Fuelweaver having no possibility to destroy them while he wants to take the Ancient Key out of the Gateway?
For the record: I've never used that technique, I trained solo FW fight many times and what I can say is that even one additional player makes that fight much easier. There's just so much going on in the inventory management, especially after cage bone attack was tweaked. Pillars are quite tricky to use.

But this makes me question a couple of methods I would consider legal (so repeatable on a public server, without any mods or console, and without abusing glitches), but I could see them considered cheesy or unfair given your definitions (would be grateful if you let me know what do you think about those):

1. Ancient Guardian's arena and himself were pretty much designed for blocking him somewhere and just clap. I don't consider it cheese, I consider it is a poor mechanical design.
   I perform that usually, funnily enough the only time I had no place to block him was on a Wormwood ruins rush. It was surprisingly problematic, mostly because I wasn't used to it, but the fight is boring repetitive and you can pause it almost any time you want, as he doesn't reset once you leave the area. I'd love Klei to put some work on the Guardian. Just grow his horn a couple of millimetres, so he can't be blocked
2. Mentioned above Fuelweaver block and Houndius Shootius. Seems cheesy and unfair to me, although legit.
3. Killing Ancient Fuelweaver with Tail o' Three Cats while standing inside Ancient Fences (it was uploaded here on the forum under insane Wendy FW speedrun). It might seem cheesy but I don't think it is (given your definitions). It's just mechanical flaw, yet to me it seems unfair (didn't try it and I would only try it to check if it really works).
4. Blocking Moose/Goose on fossil fragments / blocking Gem Deers with walls and signs and Klaus with Loot Stash and Stagehand. It removes all magic attacks and any movement from Klaus, even when he's enraged.
   I used against M/G, but never did this against Klaus. He is probably my favourite boss fight design.
5. Using swarm of bees against Enraged Klaus (joeshmocoolstuff) or against Crab King (you can actually use Bee Mines around your boat, circle CK once, so they all detonate and row in bigger distance trying to dodge geysers so he doesn't freeze them so frequently; when your boat is about to sink place another boat, gather boards from your previous one and repeat until he's dead)
   These actually seem to be interesting ways for defeating those enemies. Fair? Maybe not entirely. Cheesy? Seems they aren't, Bee Mines are used as intended and who actually uses them for anything else? I don't know anyone...
6. Blocking Deerclops or Bearger using cactus and Stagehand, so they can be automatically killed with even one catapult (I saw it in interesting methods for dealing with bosses thread here on the forum).
7. Unintentional blocking of Ancient Guardian with repetitive attacks (he sometimes just stops and can be clapped to death)
   Not an unfamiliar thing I'm afraid, poor design strikes again.
8. Unintentional blocking of Klaus with a sleeping moleworm (apparently it happened on DontStarveJazzy twitch channel).

1) Note that Klei purposefully designs their games to allow different ways to complete your objectives.  Many people fault the Ancient Guardian's design for being able to be blocked, yet they gave him a shorter range on one of this attacks...  Almost like they wanted you to be able to out-range him...  So is it intended?  Disputable.  Its not cheese since nothing is being used in unexpected ways, and these structures naturally occur in his arena.  This is simply a strategy or tactic, just as dodging his attacks.

2&3) Many people like to disrespect Houndius Shootius and catapults but this is a classic example of using them for their intended purpose.  AFW is exposed to a bit of cheesing in that you can block him off with obstacles which aren't designed to be obstacles.  If he could be blocked with walls it wouldn't be cheese, but resorting to things like spider dens or lureplant bulbs is cheese.  Fighting him from inside the wall is glitching, you aren't supposed to be able to be inside the wall but you can get glitched inside the gate.

4&6) It is cheese to block things off with structures that aren't designed to be obstacles.  Wall pieces are designed to be obstacles, a sign is designed to be a sign.  It has collision but its obviously built to leave a note.  Fossils, tables, skeletons, lureplants, spider dens - if you need to use these instead of walls its cheese.

5) Using monsters that are not pets / allies to fight against something else needs a few other questions to be asked.  If you set them up to be that way such as setting up bunnymen and spiders to fight it is cheese.  If they occur naturally and you simply benefit from it (such as tallbirds often spawning near the 3 mactusk camps) it isn't cheese, that's just the world.  Bee mines are a bit different because the mobs aren't pets, but they are there from using the bee mine for its intended purpose, in its intended way.  Defeating Crab King with bee mines is totally clear as opposed to netting and dropping bee stacks which is cheese.

7) This is completely clear of cheese or glitch.  Spiders get hit stunned from repeated attacks being completely unable to actually fight back.  This is pretty much the same situation with the AG.  When it is doing a certain attack if you hit it then it will cancel out and begin charging again.  If you hit it at the wrong times then it will hit you twice.  If you are a skilled player you can space and time this correct to make it seem very simple.

8) Some things interact on their own - just like with AG and his arena it is possible that Deerclopse spawns on you in the desert and gets caught behind cactus, or that frog rain comes and kills M/Goose.  Just like some mobs spawn in proximity to fight each other, where it would be considered cheese if you moved them to be there.  Just as netting bees is cheese but using bee mines is not cheese.

The main thing between cheese and not is that cheese is using things in an unconventional way, or in a way not intended.  You do need to read a bit into the dev's intent, but also note that many things that are cheese or even glitch may happen without a player trying to.

If you look at things such as speed run world records you will find that typically any cheese or glitch is acceptable while cheating is not.  Sometimes certain glitches are put in a separate category because of the effect of the glitch, and there is often a "100% speed run" which means they didn't use glitches to skip any parts of the gameplay and for some these speed runs are even more fun then full exploitive runs.  Regardless of which anyone prefers, both are totally "legit" and recorded!  In pvp you will find that cheese is acceptable while glitch or cheat is not - although sometimes certain things such as character choice may be gated to overcome game imbalance, and some glitches are allowed due to their accessibility.

Personally - I mostly play DST for the cheese, and I don't mind it being called cheese.  Sometimes I'll fight a boss without cheese just to enjoy it, but what I find most enjoyable is efficiency.  I like repeatable setups with very little work needed to repeat.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I'll participate if other players are interested in fighting the bosses you listed, but I'm not interested myself, and most players in pubs aren't either.

mushlights and mushcaps are the only drops that could motivate me, but not enough to learn that boss.

[Sapientis]

10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Fighting him from inside the wall is glitching, you aren't supposed to be able to be inside the wall but you can get glitched inside the gate.

I was referring to this particular strategy published here on the forums by @FuriousChimera, it isn't abusing any glitch in my opinion.

 

And yes, I just didn't know what the term "cheese" meant. I thought it was something wrong, unsportsmanlike, but you describe it as an inventive trick, which some people don't consider the right way of dealing with something.

However, as we've never got the instructions, who's to define what is the right way? Especially when we all operate within given rule set.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

imo fw should vanish if the players leave the arena

 

[themightyone]

I think Bee queen without Bunnymen or other cheese should be on the poll also . Shes no joke .

Only one on the poll I beat was Fuel Weaver , but never tried the other 3 yet . Have beat regular Toadstool with one other player. 

[ShadowDuelist]

39 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

it isn't abusing any glitch in my opinion.

I'd say that is a glitch abuse, FW's AI as soon as the player leaves the arena wants to pull the key from the gateway, but if something interrupts him he just doesn't know what to do/doesn't do anything.

As a rule of thumb, if the enemy can't even try to defend itself, there's something wrong.

[QuartzBeam]

Cheesing should brick your computer and set your house on fire.

[Sapientis]

This weapon can stunlock him, so I don't know.

Tail O' Three Cats was designed to have longer range, FW was designed to disassemble Ancient Key from the Ancient Gateway when survivors leave the arena, Lazy Explorer was designed to telepoof around, allowing the survivor to leave the arena.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Personally - I mostly play DST for the cheese, and I don't mind it being called cheese.  Sometimes I'll fight a boss without cheese just to enjoy it, but what I find most enjoyable is efficiency.  I like repeatable setups with very little work needed to repeat.

People (i have to say, me included) forget about that a crafting game allows this kind of engineer fun which is totally good for the game

Is what is cool about fighting bosses in this game. In other kind of games you say "i will fight this boss", in dst you say "i will fight this boss like this"

I love bosses that allows multiple strategies and set ups like bee queen even if i dont use all of them still being cool to have that choice in mind

[ShadowDuelist]

2 hours ago, Sapientis said:

Tail O' Three Cats was designed to have longer range, FW was designed to disassemble Ancient Key from the Ancient Gateway when survivors leave the arena, Lazy Explorer was designed to telepoof around, allowing the survivor to leave the arena.

I'll give another example that was patched: originally if you had a large enough amount of gunpowder, you were able to blow up in a single second all bosses, specially the bee queen.
Gunpowder was designed to explode, you can amass an infinite amount of gunpowder, and bosses are vulnerable to explosions like any other being on DST. However, it was patched and the bosses now have explosion resistance after being damaged by gunpowder.
The devs explained that the bosses were not able to defend themselves of that, not doing anything, it was an oversight, and with the resistance the bosses now get at least the chance to advance in phases and defend themselves a bit. They are still not super effective against it, but at least they have an answer.

Back to Fuelweaver:  see in the second video as long as the player stands inside the arena how FW at least makes bone cages, summons minions and casts the shadow shield on him. He is defending himself, doing stuff, and you have to deal with the minions and destroy the torches "at least"

On your example video whipping from the outside, FW is only trying to pull out the key, and gets stunlocked in the way, he is not able to do anything nor advance in phases. Its an AI glitch, an oversight most likely, and an abuse nontheless. If it was an intended way to play the fight, FW should at least cast his shield phase once and then, summon minions, and escape the stunlock, forcing you to temporally telepoof back into the arena if you want to continue the fight.

I'm not judging of values saying "doing that is wrong", personally I love finding glitches out of any game, and I've defeated fuelweaver getting him stuck far more times than doing the actual fight, but let's call things by its names: glitching his AI from outside of the arena IS an exploit, and it is most likely not an intended behavior or way to fight fuelweaver. Since DST is not competitive anyway, it just depends on the player's moral compass to abuse them or not. 
 

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Sapientis said:

I was referring to this particular strategy published here on the forums by @FuriousChimera, it isn't abusing any glitch in my opinion.

 

And yes, I just didn't know what the term "cheese" meant. I thought it was something wrong, unsportsmanlike, but you describe it as an inventive trick, which some people don't consider the right way of dealing with something.

However, as we've never got the instructions, who's to define what is the right way? Especially when we all operate within given rule set.

This is glitching.  You aren't supposed to be able to be inside that door.  I've seen people glitch into it, I haven't seen people telepoof into it.  I might play around with that - but that is glitching.

[Sapientis]

I am not arguing whether it's moral or not, I wouldn't use it in a survival world because I enjoy the final fight of the game cycle. I just ask if it really is abusing a glitch or still cheese. These Ancient Fences have enough space between them to allow some entities stand inside it. You cannot normally perform this, because they lower when survivors approach them, but if you place Hutch on that area and walk away he gets surrounded, but not pushed aside when they raise up again. This means it's possible to stand between the fences, especially if you can telepoof inside it. That's why I don't consider it glitching. If it wouldn't be allowed to stand inside it they would be thicker (like obelisks) and would push the player aside.
As a side note: you can get pushed into the void if you change your sanity state while standing on top of a lowered obelisk next to the land edge.

AFW's AI is another thing, but

18 hours ago, Shosuko said:

 AFW is exposed to a bit of cheesing in that you can block him off with obstacles which aren't designed to be obstacles.

If blocking him and leaving arena so the Houndius Shootius can kill him isn't considered glitching but cheesing, then this strategy is quite similar.

In my opinion Fuelweaver should cast/receive his shield when there are no players detected inside his arena and he wants to pull the Key out.

[Sapientis]

5 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I'll give another example that was patched: originally if you had a large enough amount of gunpowder, you were able to blow up in a single second all bosses, specially the bee queen.
Gunpowder was designed to explode, you can amass an infinite amount of gunpowder, and bosses are vulnerable to explosions like any other being on DST. However, it was patched and the bosses now have explosion resistance after being damaged by gunpowder.
The devs explained that the bosses were not able to defend themselves of that, not doing anything, it was an oversight, and with the resistance the bosses now get at least the chance to advance in phases and defend themselves a bit. They are still not super effective against it, but at least they have an answer.

This actually brought another thought.

Without resistance to gunpowder you could consider placing said gunpowder under the sleeping/frozen boss to kill them in one blow (the boss has no room to react) as opposed to placing equivalent of that gunpowder in rotten eggs and charcoal and lighting it on fire (the boss can react actively while taking fire damage).

Here we consider similar approach: standing between Ancient Fences and stunlocking the Ancient Fuelweaver with TOTC gives him no room to react, but using weapon with shorter range forces the player to stand closer, which allowes AFW to get to his second phase.

Without the patch you mentioned you wouldn't argue killing any boss in one blow isn't viable or fair. It used to be a completely right way to kill them, not even cheese, because gunpowder was designed to deal damage. We could agree it requires less skill and more preparation but we couldn't argue it's wrong because it wasn't.

Tail O' Three Cats seems to be that unpatched gunpowder of sorts - it requires specific item, way less skill to perform, but gets the job done.

You could say using it is lame, just as using gunpowder, but I wouldn't say it's wrong, just as using the gunpowder.

Brains over brawn they say, huh?

[Yuuko]

40 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Here we consider similar approach: standing between Ancient Fences and stunlocking the Ancient Fuelweaver with TOTC gives him no room to react, but using weapon with shorter range forces the player to stand closer, which allowes AFW to get to his second phase.

You can glitch into the door such that you can defeat him with a hambat and he never goes to his second phase.  Its a glitch to go in there, you aren't supposed to be there.

I'm not here to say how Klei should fix their game.  I don't think glitching invalidates a run.  Many world record speed runs involve glitching.

idk how Klei wants to fix their game for this.  They may consider this level of glitching "not problematic" in which case its up for us players to decide what we do and don't do.  AFW used to fail to trap you with his bone prison when you stood all the way to the edge, and they fixed it.  That was a glitch, same as when you stand just right next to a pillar to make the bone prison fail, although that one is harder to do.  Klei could fix the door such that it pushes you outside one way or the other enough for AFW to reset, or adjust AFW out-of-bounds behavior to do something similar to dfly when she goes to summon her lavae - she raises up to ignore collision while summoning lavae.  You might not notice this because she usually flies over structures, but she does so its pretty much impossible to block her from leaving to summon them.  If AFW did this when he detected you were out of the arena he could travel passed anything.

But that's on Klei - I'm not telling them to fix their game.  I like it this way lol XD

[Sapientis]

But you mentioned using Ice Staff on Crab King to cancel his casting cannot be considered cheese because Ice staff is designed to freeze him. Lazy Explorer is designed to telepoof, so if you can telepoof yourself between Ancient Fences why would it be glitch, or even cheese? Pushing yourself out there with wardrobe, lureplant bulb or something similar is cheesy, because they werent's designed to let characters pass obstacles (or land edge), but Lazy Explorer was.

[Mr.Tarunio]

Blow up all bosses, I'll stand tall on all the ashes of the bosses.

[Well-met]

16 hours ago, Sapientis said:

But you mentioned using Ice Staff on Crab King to cancel his casting cannot be considered cheese because Ice staff is designed to freeze him. Lazy Explorer is designed to telepoof, so if you can telepoof yourself between Ancient Fences why would it be glitch, or even cheese? Pushing yourself out there with wardrobe, lureplant bulb or something similar is cheesy, because they werent's designed to let characters pass obstacles (or land edge), but Lazy Explorer was.

at this point it's probably more of an issue with the whip hit stun than the teleporter.

[Yuuko]

17 hours ago, Sapientis said:

But you mentioned using Ice Staff on Crab King to cancel his casting cannot be considered cheese because Ice staff is designed to freeze him. Lazy Explorer is designed to telepoof, so if you can telepoof yourself between Ancient Fences why would it be glitch, or even cheese? Pushing yourself out there with wardrobe, lureplant bulb or something similar is cheesy, because they werent's designed to let characters pass obstacles (or land edge), but Lazy Explorer was.

Its not that the lazy explorer is used to teleport, its that you're in a wall where you shouldn't be.  Its the same as mounting woby to enter the wall, you're entering a game area you aren't supposed to be in so its a glitch.  Some glitches are easily accomplished, some even happen naturally without a player trying to do anything.

[Sapientis]

10 hours ago, Well-met said:

at this point it's probably more of an issue with the whip hit stun than the teleporter.

So I thought, but apparently you can pull it off with any melee weapon...

9 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Its not that the lazy explorer is used to teleport, its that you're in a wall where you shouldn't be.  Its the same as mounting woby to enter the wall, you're entering a game area you aren't supposed to be in so its a glitch.  Some glitches are easily accomplished, some even happen naturally without a player trying to do anything.

I don't personally think a player isn't supposed to be able to BE there. Walking on void is clear to me - it shouldn't happen, but what you call a "gate" or a "wall" I see as a couple of spaced spikes. If they (developers) wanted to make it inaccessible they could actually disconnect the arena from the rest of Atrium or use something like Basalt to physically wall it off.

I'm not trying to validate this cheese technique, but pointing out that perhaps Fuelweaver should receive a tweak in his arena detection just like his bone cage attack was tweaked a while ago. Abusing land edge was kind of a viable technique back then, showed in most solo guide videos. This one is worse, as it messes up Fuelweaver's AI completely, meaning it requires the tweak even more urgently.

You stated previously you don't consider yourself in a position to lecture developers about their game, as it is the player who can choose which way they want to approach a problem, but I value constructive criticism a lot. I think providing feedback and reporting bugs if I stumble upon something that doesn't seem intended helps the creator to notice things they could have been unaware of.

The time bone cage attack was fixed was right before I decided to finally get myself ToGetHer and defeat the last boss.
Most guides I watched before were based on abusing arena edge to dodge the cage, so I had a much harder time learning the fight, but I've never regretted Klei tweaked it, even if it was at the most unfortunate time for me.

Looking at the game as one would be looking at the piece of art (which it is to a certain extent) some would say not to pay attention to little imperfections, because the piece as a whole is good enough, others would be picky, pointing the imperfections. It doesn't have to mean they don't like it as it is. They might just want it to be even better.