have you defeated the "hard"bosses of DST?

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Sapientis said:

So I thought, but apparently you can pull it off with any melee weapon...

I don't personally think a player isn't supposed to be able to BE there. Walking on void is clear to me - it shouldn't happen, but what you call a "gate" or a "wall" I see as a couple of spaced spikes. If they (developers) wanted to make it inaccessible they could actually disconnect the arena from the rest of Atrium or use something like Basalt to physically wall it off.

You can argue intent, there is debate to be had there.  Its okay if you think getting into the wall is not a glitch.  Its not just the wall that you can glitch into though, its also AFW's glitchy AI that doesn't recognize you are outside of the arena to walk back and remove the key.  So even if we grant that getting inside the wall is intended this technique would still be exploiting a glitch in his ai.  I'd say you're not supposed to get into the wall because you can't get there without the telepoof aimed at just the right spot, leaving woby in just the right spot, or using collision and there is no feature to being there besides exploiting AFW's ai.

Quote

Looking at the game as one would be looking at the piece of art (which it is to a certain extent) some would say not to pay attention to little imperfections, because the piece as a whole is good enough, others would be picky, pointing the imperfections. It doesn't have to mean they don't like it as it is. They might just want it to be even better.

If I were the developer I think I would be a bit neurotic about bug fixes, but as a player I'm much more laissez faire.  What I meant by not "lecturing Klei" is that I don't care if they fix it or not, or what they change in their game - I just think people need to stop disrespecting valid, working as intended strategies as "cheese" because its not how they want to play, and help people understand what a glitch or cheat really is - because often people accuse others of these when that isn't what is happening, and they're usually just being condescending anyway.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

If fw doesnt activated the shield means that klei didnt expect that abuse to happend because the fight has phases and one isnt working so clearly isnt intended

You can use it, ofc, but is an abuse of a lack of code

[Sapientis]

12 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I just think people need to stop disrespecting valid, working as intended strategies as "cheese" because its not how they want to play, and help people understand what a glitch or cheat really is - because often people accuse others of these when that isn't what is happening, and they're usually just being condescending anyway.

Yup, I agree with that! Cheese can be beneficial for the game, because it's usually more efficient that the orthodox approach, but cheating and abusing glitches is mostly misleading.

8 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

If fw doesnt activated the shield means that klei didnt expect that abuse to happend because the fight has phases and one isnt working so clearly isnt intended

Which means blocking the FW and shooting it from outside of the arena with Houndius Shootius is the same level of glitch abuse.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Sapientis said:

Which means blocking the FW and shooting it from outside of the arena with Houndius Shootius is the same level of glitch abuse.

i didnt said the opposite

[wons]

I have tried to kill ancient fuelweaver legitly solo, i want to kill him because:
1. the hat that does annyoing f**cks called shadow creatures finally can f**k off from me sounds like the best thing in the world
2. i want more houndious shootious so i can have the most killing machine i-i mean hounds protection (also i have some ideas for stupid builds with this)
3.bone armor sounds nice, would make some fights easier and much more nice to do
4. a lamp that let's me manipulate the forest skeleton sounds cool and having a big cool skeleton as your pet is cool
4. oh yea, restarting ruins is cool i guess...

I want to kill toadstool, but not misery because:
1. idk about napsack
2. i heard that i don't need to kill wigfrid misery toadstool to get the cool looking lamp blueprint
3. more blueprints

i don't want to kill enraged klaus because:
1. why? like really, it doesn't gives you anything new so is there a reason?

i will try to kill crab king with ice staff because:
1. i guess that new altar thing will be necesarry in the future
2. i want to kill him with ice staffs method because i don't want to mess around with trilion of boat patches/boats just for some glass figure and the big fork of the sea 
 

[Well-met]

On 11/22/2020 at 2:53 AM, Shosuko said:

I just think people need to stop disrespecting valid, working as intended strategies as "cheese" because its not how they want to play, and help people understand what a glitch or cheat really is - because often people accuse others of these when that isn't what is happening, and they're usually just being condescending anyway.

and then klei fixes those exploits months later and suddenly the apologists don't care anymore

it's ironic

16 hours ago, Sapientis said:

Yup, I agree with that! Cheese can be beneficial for the game, because it's usually more efficient that the orthodox approach, but cheating and abusing glitches is mostly misleading.

you know what else is misleading?

players gearing up and suffering the entire battle as intended when they could just sit down, eat a burrito and let the FW harmlessly kill itself instead.

[Sapientis]

59 minutes ago, Well-met said:

you know what else is misleading?

players gearing up and suffering the entire battle as intended when they could just sit down, eat a burrito and let the FW harmlessly kill itself instead.

I mean, this is what I basically fight for, but as DST is a sandbox co-op with little to no competitive potential, there's no reason to be so harsh about it.

In competitive games developers need to fix even the rarest bugs because players wouldn't play their game if someone could get advantages because of abusing glitches. The backlash they face is enormous even for the littlest mistakes.

As it was stated before Klei didn't design DST to be strongly competitive. Existing cheese strategies like using Ice Flingomatics to endlessly freeze enemies are viable and allowed ways for defeating bosses. They still require preparations, they still require many resources and they still require some skill. I am glad they aren't always fixed, because they facilitate playing alone, which many of us - friendless players - do. On the other hand playing alone cuts players off from numerous features (or make them much harder to perform), like Dragonfly stun, Lazy Deserters, simultaneous Boat operating and others.

This is why I justify cheese, it balances out playing without friends. Playing with other players makes many tasks and boss fights, even raid bosses trivial. They require much less preparation, much less resources and much less skill than a single player would have to have in the same scenario.

But I don't justify cheating or glitching, because it violates the rules of the game.

For me fighting Fuelweaver using attack cage dodge on land's edge (cheese within game mechanics) was more viable than playing with extra equip slots (mod from Steam Workshop).

Besides we agreed killing Fuelweaver without player activity is abusing his AI imperfections which should be fixed.

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, Sapientis said:

In competitive games developers need to fix even the rarest bugs because players wouldn't play their game if someone could get advantages because of abusing glitches. The backlash they face is enormous even for the littlest mistakes.

As it was stated before Klei didn't design DST to be strongly competitive.

Competitive has little to do with this.

PvE / Co-op games still require balance. Left4dead, Killing Floor, Vermintide, Minecraft, Terraria.

The opponent being computer-controlled does not justify throwing balance out of the window.

1 minute ago, Sapientis said:

This is why I justify cheese, it balances out playing without friends

This is your problem for playing a multiplayer game alone.

To remedy this you may use mods however.

[Sapientis]

44 minutes ago, Well-met said:

PvE / Co-op games still require balance. Left4dead, Killing Floor, Vermintide, Minecraft, Terraria.

The opponent being computer-controlled does not justify throwing balance out of the window.

How did this get to a balance argument? And I don't actually understand that you name terraria as an example, different classes are not nor were they ever balanced, but they don't have to be because the game is not competitive. Referencing Minecraft just puts a smile on my face.

I think DST has pretty good balance. Fighting with environment is hard for new players but trivial for veterans, seasonal bosses could be described with the same. Raid bosses are harder but optional, so they provide useful but niche treasures.

Better items are usually harder to get.

Seems balanced to me.

44 minutes ago, Well-met said:

This is your problem for playing a multiplayer game alone.

To remedy this you may use mods however.

Mods change the game and how it should be played, cheese strategies change only the approach.

Mods can and are often used on multiplayer servers, most cheese methods are ineffective (more costly or time consuming than usual) when you have other players.

And before it gets personal, a disclaimer: I don't abuse glitches, I don't cheat and I rarely use cheese strategies even on my own worlds where I play alone. I don't even use a single game changing mod, because I like how the vanilla game was designed.

Mods I use are purely informational, improving action convenience or aesthetic.

[Well-met]

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

How did this get to a balance argument?

Because you implied anything that isn't "competitive" apparently gets a free pass for exploits or "cheese" and the likes.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

To remedy this you may use mods however

What is the different then?

I feel more cheaty using mods that using coward flingo matic

1 hour ago, Sapientis said:

They still require preparations, they still require many resources and they still require some skill

I dont think that. Some cheese only needs few items to become a boss farm like the houndious fw one

 

Maybe isnt a competitive game but it still needs to have a consistency and difficulty. Cheese like how op is ice flingmatic (it should need more fuel the more you use it) or how broken fw AI is isnt that healthy for a "uncompromising" game

[Well-met]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

What is the different then?

difficulty scaling mods don't work on public servers. I mentionned mods only because they said they played the game on their local server.

anywhere outside your local server you are forced to deal with the game as klei designed.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, Well-met said:

difficulty scaling mods don't work on public servers. I mentionned mods only because they said they played the game on their local server.

anywhere outside your local server you are forced to deal with the game as klei designed.

but is cheating (:

[Well-met]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but is cheating (:

You can mod your game so bosses have 1 health point. That's great for you, but you'll be immediately shutdown if your arguments revolve around the boss having 1 health point. For you also lock yourself out of the default game that everyone else experiences.

Exploits are available to everyone just the same, they are possible in any server with any mod and are actively spread to others via youtube.

Developers are also 100% behind the concept of mods and addons and they are often the heart of a videogame community. 

I don't agree mods are anywhere close to cheating.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Well-met said:

You can mod your game so bosses have 1 health point. That's great for you, but you'll be immediately shutdown if your arguments revolve around the boss having 1 health point. For you also lock yourself out of the default game that everyone else experiences.

Exploits are available to everyone just the same, they are possible in any server with any mod and are actively spread to others via youtube.

Developers are also 100% behind the concept of mods and addons and they are often the heart of a videogame community. 

I don't agree mods are anywhere close to cheating.

you have an advantage that console players dont have

also, using iceflingomatic and ai glitches bad but reducing heal from lua good

i dont understand you

[Well-met]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

you have an advantage that console players dont have

ok?

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

also, using iceflingomatic and ai glitches bad but reducing heal from lua good

i dont understand you

what

now you've lost me

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

2 hours ago, Sapientis said:

This is why I justify cheese, it balances out playing without friends

This is your problem for playing a multiplayer game alone.

To remedy this you may use mods however.

this

bad using cheesing but messing with the code to make the game easier is totally fine with you

[Well-met]

as long as it doesn't affect others yeah it's fine

I do not see what you're trying to show me

[Sapientis]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Maybe isnt a competitive game but it still needs to have a consistency and difficulty. Cheese like how op is ice flingmatic (it should need more fuel the more you use it) or how broken fw AI is isnt that healthy for a "uncompromising" game

I'm first to vote for FW AI fix, believe me. Even the fact he can lose a target and start eating woven shadows when you telepoof triggers me.

For flingo cheese a simple boss tag exception  would work, but I don't think flingo cheese breaks the game so much. You aren't obliged to use it, I've never used it and I guess it's mostly useful against Toadstool. Toadstool can be stopped with Ice Staff or Pan Flute which are both cheaper and more reliable methods. Even playing alone you can kill Misery Toadstool without cheese with just a couple of Weather Pains, a bunch of Glass Axes and a lot of food and Weapons (and those listed items are still necessity with flingo cheese).

2 hours ago, Well-met said:

as long as it doesn't affect others yeah it's fine

I do not see what you're trying to show me

Choosing to use a cheese method doesn't affect others, does it?

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Some cheese only needs few items to become a boss farm like the houndious fw one

It's more of fw bad ai glitch abuse combined with cheesy blockade of objects indestructible for fw.

[Yuuko]

19 hours ago, Well-met said:

and then klei fixes those exploits months later and suddenly the apologists don't care anymore

If Klei wants to change it they can.  They changed the CK flingo glitch start, I don't see much complaining about that lol  Most of the complaining I hear are from try-hards who are mad they go through all this trouble to fight a boss how they want then see someone else set up a few walls and a flingo and collected the same loot while emoting as Wes...  (lets not mention these try-hards pick Wolfgang and what that does to game difficulty lol)

Quote

players gearing up and suffering the entire battle as intended ...

What's that?  As intended?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_gameplay

Quote from Jamie Cheng - founder of Klei Entertainment
"You could see a lot of the systemic systems... basically we set up a puzzle where there's lots of ways you could solve it. [2:54]

Spoiler

 

 

17 hours ago, Well-met said:

Competitive has little to do with this.

PvE / Co-op games still require balance. Left4dead, Killing Floor, Vermintide, Minecraft, Terraria.

The opponent being computer-controlled does not justify throwing balance out of the window.

This is your problem for playing a multiplayer game alone.

To remedy this you may use mods however.

Cheese does sometimes need to be balanced - but this game is not a combat simulator.  When you build a bunny army to take out bee queen, build a wall to channel off lavae, lure hounds into a beefalo herd, bring frog rain to M/Goose, ect ect ect that all may be "cheese" but its perfectly valid gameplay - probably a lot more "intended" by Klei then you think...

Most cheese is balanced by how much time it takes to set up, and how much game knowledge it takes to put it together.  Rushing a few panflutes and darkswords with Wolfgang to KO bee queen is a LOT faster than building 20 some bunny hutches and giving them all bee hats.  I've helped other people set up some cheese stuff, if they aren't familiar with the game they don't understand how to set up a wall for dfly, an oven for bee queen, ect.  Cheese isn't always easy, it just puts the difficulty part on another aspect of gameplay.  Its just as valid.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 hours ago, Well-met said:

as long as it doesn't affect others yeah it's fine

I do not see what you're trying to show me

Im showing you the non sense of being salty about cheesing but not about making the game easier with mods or editing the hp from the lua archives

I dont care that people use it but both are cheating or cheesing or whatever you want to call it

If dont see how can you suffer as intended if beequeen has half hp

 

[Well-met]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Im showing you the non sense of being salty about cheesing but not about making the game easier with mods or editing the hp from the lua archives

it's easy really.

one is shown to every other player on youtube and is being done virtually on any server.

the other is bound to your own personal sandbox server with your own rules that has no impact on the outside world.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Well-met said:

it's easy really.

one is shown to every other player on youtube and is being done virtually on any server.

the other is bound to your own personal sandbox server with your own rules that has no impact on the outside world.

So fix all strategies that arent pressing F and kiting because few computer players can edit lua to make the game easier meanwhile complain about people not suffering as intended

Logic

[Well-met]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

So fix all strategies that arent pressing F and kiting because few computer players can edit lua to make the game easier meanwhile complain about people not suffering as intended

Logic

I really do not understand where you're going with this but it's clear you're set on your own ideas and you aren't predisposed to read my posts.

How many times have I wrote there is a big difference between a personal server and the default Klei gameplay?

I can only guess you're trying to ask "what if you play a personal server with no mods and still exploit?". I imagine there would be no problem either as long as you didn't broadcast the exploit to everybody else. (which they did, in this case).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I really do not understand where you're going with this but it's clear you're set on your own ideas and you aren't predisposed to read my posts.

How many times have I wrote there is a big difference between a personal server and the default Klei gameplay?

I can only guess you're trying to ask "what if you play a personal server with no mods and still exploit?". I imagine there would be no problem either as long as you didn't broadcast the exploit to everybody else. (which they did, in this case).

If you mean that people simply copy a easy set up, like the iceflingo +star caller or the fw cheese, without even trying to think a personal set up or experiment by their own. You are totally right. People are lazy and dont want to improve (obv when yoy see the workshop...) Instead of having fun messing with sandbox mechanics,  people just copy the easiest and cheapee way to kill something because for the sake of win

What im pointing is that there isnt so much difference between what you do and what you complain about. That doesnt mean im against of editing the lua, actually could be more fun than using the portal for each boss session

Also, i can open a dedicate server with edited lua so it will affect other players too

 

At the end i dont care, just pointing the, imo, non sense