In defense of the macabre creature designs from the "Return of Them" series of updates.

[Mike23Ua]

now this, or a variation of this is something that I want.. I can’t tell the difference between a Red hound and a Regular hound until usually it’s too late and I’ve burned down half a forest.

The problem with Horror Hounds However is that they don’t behave like normal hounds, they have a unique animation to reanimate, and MAYBE Klei could turn them to look like regular hounds except bright purple and Shadow creature looking.. but unless they “explode” into party confetti and still attack you, then they’re not doing the job that a horror hound does.

I think having a filter option to hide or show every individual skin in the game would also be extremely complicated to do, hiding them in the menu screen would be easy, but how do you hide someone else’s skins when they’re walking around your world using a Clean Sweep?

[Primalflower]

7 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Sure, programming is magic. You move your fingers, say the magical words and you obtain a new desing, new code for that sprite, a place in some menu to put that option, etc

Yes, believe it or not, the people who work on don't starve are professional coders and designers and artists who can indeed do these things without it taking their entire life to do so. 

7 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

If is that easy make your own mod

people already did, you enable it and with the magic of programming the pengulls and hounds have different looks. I took like less than an hour to make a mod that makes the war saddle look different one night after not having worked iwth the tools for months, and people say these tools are lacking luxuries that the actual game devs have... its really not rocket science to do this kind of thing, I imagine it wouldn't exactly be torture for these experienced people to implement a setting that acts similarly to these kinds of mods.

 

11 hours ago, WebberMain said:

Saying that something is a logical fallacy does not make the argument invalid

Not immediately, no, but I am absolutely sure that people would be able to infer by me negatively calling an argument a slippery slope, that I have doubts that it actually is in fact, slippery. Besides, I explained why such an argument is weird and doesn't have that much of a leg to stand on in my subsequent reply, so i don't understand why you chose to respond to the one previous like this

 

Overall I find myself sympathizing with this picture while looking at this thread immensely

[AlternateMew]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

now this, or a variation of this is something that I want.. I can’t tell the difference between a Red hound and a Regular hound until usually it’s too late and I’ve burned down half a forest.

That is the exact reason I use it! Blue hounds are easy to see and less dangerous. Red hounds blend in and are VERY dangerous.

47 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I think having a filter option to hide or show every individual skin in the game would also be extremely complicated to do, hiding them in the menu screen would be easy, but how do you hide someone else’s skins when they’re walking around your world using a Clean Sweep?

Depending on how it's coded, not really. What I meant is on the menu screen, you  can see all the skins, as you already can. Have a check box that defaults to on over each skin. If you check it to off, then what you will see is the default, unskinned item. Same as a clientside mod.

Not sure what  you know of clientside/serverside mods since you're on console, but basically: Server side mods effect the world itself. How things spawn, how things behave, what things drop, etc. Clientside mods effect only you. what you see, what your controls are, etc. Which is why I can join a public, Klei-hosted server and see the Hellish Hellhounds while everyone else sees normal red hounds. It's a different texture that only I see. So reverse that for item skins, where they could be toggled to show a default skin for the client while everyone else sees the normal skin.

Like I said, depends on ho things are on the back end, but if its a match, then it's a lot of copy-paste at worst and a single additional block of code at best, with a rather small maintenance going forward. At least to my understanding.

If so, that actually makes skins a lot easier than mobs, because it becomes a real quick easy 'show me the default instead' toggle rather than completely new designs and animations.

[thegreatJash]

Never was aware of this. Don't find them scary at all.

[MondayNight]

  

8 hours ago, Sunset Skye said:

 

7 hours ago, Zeklo said:

- Your problem isn't real.

 

Because blatant exaggerations time-and-again. And because treatment for real phobias (the ones diagnosed by licensed doctors as per Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders/DSM-5 criteria, and not self-diagnosed over the internet as so many people tend to do nowadays in "hypochondric swings") involves Exposure Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - only in a tiny fraction of severe cases actual medication (sedatives, beta blockers for adrenaline) is also required. Hence exposure is the get-go. And we're not even writing about actual phobias here, rather visual discomfort.

Likewise does anyone remember the "bipolar epidemic" that was over the webs years ago? Most women and even some of the men in my college class for example "had it". It was that "popular", like a trend - self-diagnosed of course. More so in the "emo circles". Late teens (yet teens mostly, since adolescence and the changes brought by hormones are quite dramatic for some) and young adults with age-specific mood swings can easily slip into self-diagnosed illnesses and dysphoria. Same with phobias. Many mistake dislikes and mild aversions (for example I have mild aversion to irl spiders) with actual, medically diagnosed phobias. Plus some people even deliberately do so for attention seeking (various reasons, mostly boiling down to feelings of uniqueness, of being special and requiring added protection - yes, certain people do derive pleasure from that). Happens, quite so often. Thus less exaggerations pls, as it dilutes the perceived problem.

 

Back to DST and Body-Horror Mobs: at center of discussion was KLei's initial Art Direction for "Return of Them" and Moon biomes, not WorldGen filters. Theoretical direction involving body-horror elements and reanimated mobs (brought by "Turn of Tides" update), a creepy misty atmosphere of the macabre, all-around a seemingly back-to-the-roots tendency as related to DS's dark, Lovecraftian undertones. Atmosphere and elements that appear to vanish from following updates, after the tiny-but-vocal minority complained about Horror Hounds and Moonrock Pengulls. That's the crux of matter: a handful (tiny minority) of people, most likely exaggerating, went vocally against KLei's Art direction for "Return of Them", possibly denying player-base majority an interesting flavored experience of what made DS appealing in the first place. Because, once more: for KLei is way more convenient, time-and-costs wise, to shift this art direction as opposed to making 2 types of art if a "sensibility filter" would to be added (to mask any future hypothetical Body-Horror Mob). More so when dealing with current Body-Horror Mobs existence already has in-game alternatives (another bon for DS/T - having multiple ways of tackling a given problem):

● Moonrock Pengulls: don't visit Moon archipelago during first 1/3 of winter;

● Shattered Spiders: don't walk on Lunar main island spider dens' webbing and don't camp close to said dens at night;

● Horror Hounds: burn remaining corpses of killed dogs on Moon archipelago or visit the archipelago only after a Hounds wave.

Someone presented in a previous comment the WorldGen options of turning Pengs, Spiders and Hounds "off". All these are valid, logical, on-hand ways of addressing one's displeasure/aversion to the cartoony Body-Horror Mobs existence. Then there are aesthetic mods too.

It might be a personal view point derived from self-assumed responsibility and individualistic nature (I don't automatically blame exterior factors for my lapses whatever those might be), but I for one when having a hurdle in my path, a problem, I first try to find ways to solve it myself; not to demand from start others clear it for me. Same with current Horror Mobs and above proposals.

 

Thus yes, in the end we are questioning the validity of initial claims (severe aversion and body-horror related phobias) on exaggeration grounds when at stakes could be the very "Return of Them" initial art and lore direction. "Care about people out there" comes with parenthesis.

[Mike23Ua]

I get it now.. “Them” Return of Them.. all THEM mobs you’ve been murdering to try not to starve will RETURN.

Well played Klei.. Well played indeed.  
(jokes of course.. but honestly only Klei staff knows what the heck RoT is supposed to be at this point..)

I think the REAL problem despite people saying these types of creatures bring them physical illness is that “Children” and perhaps even some “Adults” In THIS Generation have their content so censored and their sensitivity to Every..Little.. Thing is beyond ridiculous- I can understand and respect that people want a filter for these creatures.. but at the same time- Can anyone honestly sit here and lie to me and say that Today’s generations media in-take isn’t beyond super sensitive?

 

I SAID #MeLikeyDaSpooky.. and I was Drawn into it at a young age, through the cartoons and media, and toys that were literally flying off toy shelves- I’m going to put these into a spoiler tag for those who are “Sensitive to body-horror” 

Spoiler

But I just want you guys to know that I once owned every single last one of these, THIS Is MIGHTY MAX and there was once a time that you couldn’t even order a Happy Meal at McDonalds (or the Girl Equivalent Polly Pocket) without getting one of these inside your happy meal.

So I think I can safely say that people in 2020 are just a little too sensitive to their media exposure.

[WebberMain]

56 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

  

 

 

Because blatant exaggerations time-and-again. And because treatment for real phobias (the ones diagnosed by licensed doctors as per Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders/DSM-5 criteria, and not self-diagnosed over the internet as so many people tend to do nowadays in "hypochondric swings") involves Exposure Therapy and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - only in a tiny fraction of severe cases actual medication (sedatives, beta blockers for adrenaline) is also required. Hence exposure is the get-go. And we're not even writing about actual phobias here, rather visual discomfort.

Likewise does anyone remember the "bipolar epidemic" that was over the webs years ago? Most women and even some of the men in my college class for example "had it". It was that "popular", like a trend - self-diagnosed of course. More so in the "emo circles". Late teens (yet teens mostly, since adolescence and the changes brought by hormones are quite dramatic for some) and young adults with age-specific mood swings can easily slip into self-diagnosed illnesses and dysphoria. Same with phobias. Many mistake dislikes and mild aversions (for example I have mild aversion to irl spiders) with actual, medically diagnosed phobias. Plus some people even deliberately do so for attention seeking (various reasons, mostly boiling down to feelings of uniqueness, of being special and requiring added protection - yes, certain people do derive pleasure from that). Happens, quite so often. Thus less exaggerations pls, as it dilutes the perceived problem.

 

Back to DST and Body-Horror Mobs: at center of discussion was KLei's initial Art Direction for "Return of Them" and Moon biomes, not WorldGen filters. Theoretical direction involving body-horror elements and reanimated mobs (brought by "Turn of Tides" update), a creepy misty atmosphere of the macabre, all-around a seemingly back-to-the-roots tendency as related to DS's dark, Lovecraftian undertones. Atmosphere and elements that appear to vanish from following updates, after the tiny-but-vocal minority complained about Horror Hounds and Moonrock Pengulls. That's the crux of matter: a handful (tiny minority) of people, most likely exaggerating, went vocally against KLei's Art direction for "Return of Them", possibly denying player-base majority an interesting flavored experience of what made DS appealing in the first place. Because, once more: for KLei is way more convenient, time-and-costs wise, to shift this art direction as opposed to making 2 types of art if a "sensibility filter" would to be added (to mask any future hypothetical Body-Horror Mob). More so when dealing with current Body-Horror Mobs existence already has in-game alternatives (another bon for DS/T - having multiple ways of tackling a given problem):

● Moonrock Pengulls: don't visit Moon archipelago during first 1/3 of winter;

● Shattered Spiders: don't walk on Lunar main island spider dens' webbing and don't camp close to said dens at night;

● Horror Hounds: burn remaining corpses of killed dogs on Moon archipelago or visit the archipelago only after a Hounds wave.

Someone presented in a previous comment the WorldGen options of turning Pengs, Spiders and Hounds "off". All these are valid, logical, on-hand ways of addressing one's displeasure/aversion to the cartoony Body-Horror Mobs existence. Then there are aesthetic mods too.

It might be a personal view point derived from self-assumed responsibility and individualistic nature (I don't automatically blame exterior factors for my lapses whatever those might be), but I for one when having a hurdle in my path, a problem, I first try to find ways to solve it myself; not to demand from start others clear it for me. Same with current Horror Mobs and above proposals.

 

Thus yes, in the end we are questioning the validity of initial claims (severe aversion and body-horror related phobias) on exaggeration grounds when at stakes could be the very "Return of Them" initial art and lore direction. "Care about people out there" comes with parenthesis.

You,right there.You know what youre doing.Your argument is logical and is presented trough facts and truth rather than emotion and sentiment.Literally you just fullfilled every aspect expected from a debating competion speech.You,sir have my respect and i agree with yoi in every single point.

[Primalflower]

1 hour ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

  

you responded to someone saying " your problem isn't real" is a bad argument  by saying "your problem is probably not real" and then went right back to saying that it would be too much of a time waste for klei to take 2 seconds to make a filter for people who legitimately cant handle such mobs and that simply avoiding mobs like them should be the Only way for these people who have legitimate reasons to not ever want to encounter these things, to never encounter these things because you, yourself, think thats how you would handle the situation

[Mike23Ua]

Please click the above spoiler link for Mighty Max toy collection.. it explains everything you need to know- kids used to get these inside happy meals at McDonald’s.

Your personal discomfort for this type of horror comes purely from your lessened exposure to this type of horror- Meanwhile I can bet you anyone who was around during the Mighty Max craze does not really have a single problem with it-

Mostly because they were either a Parent buying these highly popular things for their kids, or they WERE that kid receiving these types of toys 

These things were almost as valuable as the Pokémon Trading cards phase... EVERYONE had them and we’re trading them.

To summarize this into a TL:DR- you haven’t been exposed to it enough so it makes you uncomfortable.. a problem that doesn’t get solved by having a “Make it Pretty” Filter.

[MondayNight]

3 minutes ago, Lbphero said:

you responded to someone saying " your problem isn't real" is a bad argument  by saying "your problem is probably not real" and then went right back to saying that it would be too much of a time waste for klei to take 2 seconds to make a filter for people who legitimately cant handle such mobs and that simply avoiding mobs like them should be the Only way for these people who have legitimate reasons to not ever want to encounter these things, to never encounter these things because you, yourself, think thats how you would handle the situation

Define how, technically, "klei .. take(s) 2 seconds to make a filter for people who legitimately cant handle such mobs".

KLei supposedly makes a "Body-Horror Mobs: on/off" - how does it function in-game?

What is shown, art-wise, in place of present and theoretical future Body-Horror Mobs to only take KLei, quote "2 seconds"?

And them maybe also tell me more about... exaggerations.

[minespatch]

Can we please get a dev to talk and maybe end this conversation? Sounds like we're going in circles.

[WebberMain]

8 minutes ago, Lbphero said:

you responded to someone saying " your problem isn't real" is a bad argument  by saying "your problem is probably not real" and then went right back to saying that it would be too much of a time waste for klei to take 2 seconds to make a filter for people who legitimately cant handle such mobs and that simply avoiding mobs like them should be the Only way for these people who have legitimate reasons to not ever want to encounter these things, to never encounter these things because you, yourself, think thats how you would handle the situation

The problem is,it won´t take 2 seconds,it will take money,and its not the only way.Your "argument" is´invalid because,if you are scared of lets say spiders to the point you could have a meltdown and such not handling them,you WILL choose to avoid them.Humans and every other animal is coded to avoid danger and things they fear.Its natural,just like the proposed solution which does not take time nor money from the devs.

[bruhmoment23]

2 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Can we please get a dev to talk and maybe end this conversation? Sounds like we're going in circles.

Agreed. As much as i try to understand both sides of the spectrum here, this is really going nowhere at this point.

[TheKingDedede]

2 minutes ago, minespatch said:

Can we please get a dev to talk and maybe end this conversation? Sounds like we're going in circles.

If an artist or dev from Klei were to show up in the thread, I'd like to ask if there were plans to add more mobs to the Moon Island, but were not able to be added due to how some players were disgusted by them or if they had to continue following the roadmap with adding new content. I would also like to ask if they have any plans to introduce new mobs onto the Island with a similar artstyle and theme like the three mobs I had brought up in my original post.

[Primalflower]

18 minutes ago, WebberMain said:

The problem is,it won´t take 2 seconds

 

19 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Define how, technically, "klei .. take(s) 2 seconds to make a filter for people who legitimately cant handle such mobs".

Yes, it will take two seconds, I've stated why, but I can do it again. For one, the people at klei are...professionals. They know how to code and design assets and make art, they know how the insides of the game works, and as a result I am absolutely sure that if it takes me less than an hour to make a mod that reskins something (see my war saddle picture example) and takes veritably little time for people to make reskins for the pengulls and hounds themselves, that it will absolutely take miniscule effort from the devs to implement an option that turns a reskin like these mods on.

18 minutes ago, WebberMain said:

its not the only way.Your "argument" is´invalid because,if you are scared of lets say spiders to the point you could have a meltdown and such not handling them,you WILL choose to avoid them.Humans and every other animal is coded to avoid danger and things they fear.Its natural

Well yes, in fact, as it would stand in the vanilla game, avoiding them would be the only way to work with it. and thats awful.

I'm not saying that simply avoiding these things isn't/shouldn't be an option for people, but that forcing those people to only avoid these things is awful when it would take so little time and effort to add an option to reskin them. Such is why accessibility features are such an important thing to have in games.

19 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

KLei supposedly makes a "Body-Horror Mobs: on/off" - how does it function in-game?

What is shown, art-wise, in place of present and theoretical future Body-Horror Mobs to only take KLei, quote "2 seconds"?

The simplest (in terms of art assets) solution would probably just be to replace the existing mobs with a hue shifted version of their calmer variants. It doesnt take an entire laboratory to think of something that would provide minimal strain on klei's workers and would help people who have a legitimate aversion to these things.

19 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

And them maybe also tell me more about... exaggerations.

I'd rather have not have had to touch that part of your argument, but its frankly sickening to me for you to say that we should disregard people who actually have issues, diagnosed or not, because some people fake them. I don't understand how you can say that we shouldnt have accessibility features in a game even partly because some people might not actually 100% need it.

[1bubbainpa]

I just want to say that klei made a grotesque horror mod about a bloody half-man half-owl who had a row of teeth that extended in the middle of his chest. Said mod came with the original game, was free to install, had jumpscares, and multiple corpses with all the victim’s flesh torn off.

I don’t think Klei is going to shy away from these grotesque mobs.

[Primalflower]

Just now, 1bubbainpa said:

I just want to say that klei made a grotesque horror mod about a bloody half-man half-owl who had a row of teeth that extended in the middle of his chest. Said mod came with the original game, was free to install, and had jumpscares.

I don’t think Klei is going to shy away from these grotesque mobs.

I hope they don't, I loved it when I was first experiencing the lunar content and suddenly a gang of even more horrible pengulls jumped out of the water and almost killed me.

I'd just like it if people who cant handle that kind of thing to have some kind of accessibility feature so they can also be on the lunar island during winter.

[WebberMain]

10 minutes ago, Lbphero said:

The simplest (in terms of art assets) solution would probably just be to replace the existing mobs with a hue shifted version of their calmer variants. It doesnt take an entire laboratory to think of something that would provide minimal strain on klei's workers and would help people who have a legitimate aversion to these things.

Yes,but this would only upset the majority(seen more people in various threads be pro-gore rather than anti-gore).Majority is more important,it´s true whether you like it or not.It´s sad,but true.We can´t make everyone happy.And the last point,your solution would literally defeat the purpose and idea of the moon mutations and throw away all the hard work and spent time on those designs.

[minespatch]

Just now, Lbphero said:

I hope they don't, I loved it when I was first experiencing the lunar content and suddenly a gang of even more horrible pengulls jumped out of the water and almost killed me.

Meanwhile over in Griftlands...

Spoiler

 

[Primalflower]

1 minute ago, WebberMain said:

Yes,but this would only upset the majority(seen more people in various threads be pro-gore rather than anti-gore).Majority is more important,it´s true whether you like it or not.We can´t make everyone happy.And the last point,your solution would literally defeat the purpose and idea of the moon mutations and throw away all the hard work and spent time on those designs.

why would it upset the majority who don't have as strong of an aversion to these things if its a feature they dont have to turn on

[WebberMain]

1 minute ago, Lbphero said:

why would it upset the majority who don't have as strong of an aversion to these things if its a feature they dont have to turn on

Oh,sorry,my bad.I completely overlooked in your orig. post that you are answering on how this feature would look.I have to pay more attention

[Primalflower]

Just now, WebberMain said:

Oh,sorry,my bad.I completely overlooked in your orig. post that you are answering on how this feature would look.I have to pay more attention

all good

[mutantt]

5 minutes ago, Lbphero said:

I hope they don't, I loved it when I was first experiencing the lunar content and suddenly a gang of even more horrible pengulls jumped out of the water and almost killed me.

I'd just like it if people who cant handle that kind of thing to have some kind of accessibility feature so they can also be on the lunar island during winter.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1745307125 an official toggle for this sort of thing is not necessary, just use the mod that makes moonrock pengulls and horror hounds look similar to their regular counterparts or dont go to the lunar island in winter and burn hound corpses after killing them, both are extremely easy solutions

[Primalflower]

Just now, ciara15 said:

an official toggle for this sort of thing is not necessary, just use the mod that makes moonrock pengulls and horror hounds look similar to their regular counterparts or dont go to the lunar island in winter and burn hound corpses after killing them, both are extremely easy solutions

console

[TheKingDedede]

12 minutes ago, Lbphero said:

Yes, it will take two seconds, I've stated why, but I can do it again. For one, the people at klei are...professionals. They know how to code and design assets and make art, they know how the insides of the game works, and as a result I am absolutely sure that if it takes me less than an hour to make a mod that reskins something (see my war saddle picture example) and takes veritably little time for people to make reskins for the pengulls and hounds themselves, that it will absolutely take miniscule effort from the devs to implement an option that turns a reskin like these mods on.

I apologize if this is a bit off-topic, but I remember seeing how JoeW once responded to a thread asking why character skins were developed and released so far apart. Here's his response, if you were interested: 

So I would disagree a bit. I can't say for sure, but it wouldn't take exactly two minutes to develop an alternate skin or design for a mob, but it wouldn't be asking too much for a slight reskin as some mods have done to censor and change the aforementioned pre-existing mobs.